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Joined: Jun 2012
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I recently picked up a contender in 30 herrot. I'm wanting to shoot a lead bullet at sub sonic velocity so I don't have to worry about sticking a bullet. Jacketed bullets at be fine and safe but I think they will be to hard to open in game. Anyone have any experience with a 30 cal bullet at this velocity on game?

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I haven't tried that combination personally, but you're looking at 32 S&W performance, and plenty of small game has fallen to that round over the years.

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I have used the RCBS 150 gr. FN PB and could think of no better. Muddy

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Muddy do you pour that bullet yourself? I have never poured bullets. If I had to pour my own would pure lead work or would be be soft soft? I have pure lead and wheel weights. What about sizing the bullet after pouring?

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Find yourself an old Lyman/Ideal #311241 mould which drops a 155gr. plain base bullet. Cast it out of scrap lead or wheel weights- something pretty soft. In your rifle I'll guess that sizing it to .309-.310 would do the trick. Lubricate it with any old bullet lube you can get for cheap- at this level that isn't too important. Load it with 5 or 6 grains of fast pistol powder like Bullseye/Clays/Red Dot and go forth and plink your heart out. It is a good bullet for loading Squibb loads. (I prefer to use the original definition of Squibb which is essentially a low velocity target load, not what a lot of people now call a bullet-stuck-in-the-barrel load.)

Do not. I repeat, do not substitute jacketed bullets for lead ones in really light loads like this or you will get that loving bullet-stuck-in-the-barrel feeling. I know. Learnt that lesson the hard way back in the Ice Age.

I over simplified my response because I just didn't want to get into the whole encyclopedia of cast bullet making/shooting theory, but you get the drift, I hope.

If you're thinking about using such a load to shoot a deer, forget it. You can't drive this bullet fast enough to be a reliable killer, unless shots are placed with the precision of a neurosurgeon.


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"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Rocky, Gno.. has it all. I just recommended the RCBS as it is a plain base w/a fairy large flat nose and is pretty short. You could probably heat it up to about 1200 fps using Unique to 2400 burn rates but not much more. Just use a Lee push through sizer and either finger smear lube in the groves or pan lube before sizing, you could probably even get away w/the liquid lube in the kit.- Muddy

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Deer are my primary target. I know I'm asking a lot of that gun at that particular velocity but I'm trying to stay as quite as possible. I've had some luck with the Oregon trail laser cast 210 round nose. It works only because it tumbles on impact. The lead is to hard to expand or deform. I was just thinking of trying to pour some with some softer lead maybe. I have some medical grade lead that tey claim is 99% pure. I'm pushing the 210 with 8.5 gr of trail boss and getting decent accuracy. I just want something that will expand on impact. I don't want to rely on the bullet tumbling or penciling through I'm looking for something more reliable. If I pour some out of pure lead will that be to soft?

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Even the lee "soup can" bullet is worth considering.

[Linked Image]

I've shot them out of my .308 at ~1100 fps and they will group around 1" at 50 yds.

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Even more good advice there.

As for hardness, you gotta have them a little harder than pure lead or you will likely get a bad case of leading in your barrel to the point where accuracy goes south pretty quickly. Were it me, I would mix your pure lead 50/50 with wheel weight material, or perhaps softer at 60/40 in this instance.

You're asking a lot of a cast bullet at these low velocities. One can't expect much expansion. Again, were it me and I was faced with your needs (I didn't realize it was such a big necessity to work up a deer killing load with barely-sonic velocities- my bad, I thought you were looking for a plinking load), I would also consider a hollow point design to help things along, or at the very least a big wide flat point (meplat) like that Lee Soup Can design.

I would also look into a heavy weight bullet, say 190-220 grains, cast soft, with a hollow point if I were going to seriously consider shooting a deer with 11-1200 fps loads. Still "quiet" and with a lot more kinetic energy. Going much faster than that, aside from being louder, you start getting into the realm of needing a gas checked bullet which I don't know if you want to go that route.

This hobby is simple as heck on the one hand, and devilishly complicated on the other.


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At any rate, given the parameters of your needs, and strictly staying in barely sonic or sub-sonic velocity levels no matter the design/shape/weight, you still gotta put that bullet precisely where it'll do the most good. Spine/neck/head shots rule for that. Punch one of these bullets through the chest and that thing will run a heckuva ways before laying down. IMO we owe a lot more to our quarry than to shoot it in a manner in which it dies a hard death. The deer deserve a better shake than that.

The OP seems to know his business in that regard. I'm throwing it out for the benefit of some newbie lurker who might read this.

Last edited by gnoahhh; 12/10/14.

"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Next time, start out with a cartridge that fires a big fat bullet that starts out at the diameter you hope a .30 will expand to. Something like a .45 Colt semi-wadcutter 260-300 grains at 1000 fps or less out of a rifle will be pretty much as quiet as you need yet pack a lot more whomp, even if it doesn't expand one iota.

Last edited by gnoahhh; 12/10/14.

"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
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If you're shooting subsonic (and probably suppressed?) at game, you'll want a flat point or hollow point for decent terminal effect. Unfortunately most .30 cal rifle bullets aren't that good in this scenario, giving extreme over-penetration with very little terminal effect, although there are some decent options in custom bullet molds.

Consider loading your bullets backwards, so the base becomes a big flat point.

Cast lead bullets are certainly easier to develop subsonic loads for, and what I generally prefer, although the Hornady 90gr XTP is worth a look for this application (for small game). It expands well at 900-1000 fps, and is easy to develop a quiet subsonic load with.

All said and done though, a .357 barrel for that contender would be a far better choice for your application, with a lot of good bullets that perform well in the velocity window you want.

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Just noticed you're after deer. Some sort of 200+gr flat point is probably the way to go, and go for the spine or shoulder bones. Penetration won't be a problem, expect through-and-through.

I took a deer a couple weeks ago, during Thanksgiving week, with this 250gr .358 hollow point that I designed, fired from my suppressed 35 Remington. Performance was very good, with a nickel sized hole in the ribs, top of heart missing, lungs pulped, and quarter size hole out the far ribs and shoulder. Same bullet can be loaded in 38 special brass for a very quiet lever-gun load.

I have not been able to get that kind of performance from subsonic .30 cal bullets though, including my own cast hollow points.

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Your game, play it as you wish. Possibilities are more defined by precision that terminal performance. Couple of things to consider:

1. CNS shots or go home depressed.
2. You can shoot subs with very soft lead, even pure lead if you choose, but they won't expand much at all. They will penetrate well due to the lack of expansion.
3. It is a close quarter endeavor.

I know the above because I've been murdering hogs with CB Shorts since about 2006 and have yet to lose one.

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For practical purposes the .30 Herrett loaded subsonic is little different from a .30-30 loaded with the same objective. I found something around 3.3 grains of Bullseye under a Lyman 311041 goes around 725 fps and sounds about like a SV .22 LR. That's the same velocity of the CB Shorts from my rifle. That bullet cast of anything around 50/50 lead/wheel weights is perfectly adequate. For that matter 30:1 Lead/Tin will do just as well.

Your primary objective, first and foremost is accuracy. Find that and the rest is fluff.

[Linked Image]


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Thanks guys to do appreciate all the input. I understand shooting deer with a thirty cal cast bullet at subsonic velocity is asking a lot and has a risk a wounding I hate that part of it but the shots will be inside of fifty yards and a cns shot will be the goal. As far as accuracy I have had food luck will the hawk 195 gr flat nose but the bullet seems to hard to open or expand. The lead 200gr laser cast shoots aroun two inches at a 100 yards which is probably good enough but tumbles on impact. This works fine I was just hoping to find something that will almost flatten out. The hornady 90gr xtp opens real good and performs good on small game but I can't get the accuracy. It seems to be difficult to find an accurate bullet that suits me as far as performance. Where would be a good spot to pick up a mold at a reasonable price I'm interested in trying to pour some of my own bullets. Once again guys I do appreciate your comments. It's hard to find good data on this type of project but I know others have toyed around with it.

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I shoot the 300 Blackout, and have experimented with a lot of subsonic loads.

You will not find any soft point or flat nose .30 cal bullet that will expand significantly at subsonic speeds, even cast from pure lead. Your only options are the expensive boutique stuff like Lehigh, or a custom hollow point bullet. That's why I recommend a .357 barrel instead, there are literally dozens of off the shelf bullets, or even loaded ammo, that will work perfectly.

You can look at NOE bullet molds, but if you don't already cast, a hollow point rifle bullet mold is not the way to start.

Last edited by Yondering; 12/11/14.
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Well put, forget the quest for expansion. Your quest should be accuracy from a heavy for caliber bullet, and limit shots to brain or spine.

I'd suggest the RCBS 180 gr fp mold.

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Rocky, shooting stuff with low velocity bullets asks a lot of you, not the bullets or load. Truth is I got tired of collecting pics of dead pigs and quit taking them, but the count over the last few years is around 100. The number of times I passed on the shot? A lot more. I passed on those shots because I was not 100% certain of the outcome. That is my personal litmus for jerking the trigger in the CB Short v. Hog shooting match. 100%. I know their anatomy and the capability of the gun and loads I'm using. It is prerequisite in such endeavors.

From my read I gather that you have been buying commercial cast bullets for your shooting? Nothing wrong with that, but you have the option of juggling a few things if you cast your own. It isn't difficult and once you get the hang of it casting a significant amount of bullets is not time consuming. I'm going to post a couple of links where you can get some pointers on the art, then make a few comments for your consideration and let it go at that. Pretty much everything you need to know, and much more is available at these sites.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

If you wish to start pumping out bullets in large volume, look at the bottom pour melting pots and gang moulds. To a large degree you will get what you pay for. With some ingenuity you can do more with even the most basic of equipment.

If small scale casting is viable, a small melting pot and a ladle will do the trick. That is the path I'm on and in general terms I can produce 100-150 bullets in a couple of hours, depending if I'm using a single or double cavity mould.

Different mould material (iron/brass/aluminum) leads to different rhythms in the casting process. Iron holds heat better, aluminum is generally cheaper but cools more quickly. They all work, you just have to adapt to the material.

It is entirely possible to make cast bullets for about any application though there are a few caveats. Exceptionally hard cast bullets do not expand much, they can go very fast and they might shatter if they hit heavy bone. Subsonic loads can be put together without gas checks without exception. I shoot plain base bullets up to around 1600-1700 fps without leading. Bullet fit to throat and bore is of paramount importance. No guessing here...make it fit. Lee push thru sizers are a very convenient device. Liquid ALOX is neat stuff and pan lubing it the schizzle.

You can load cast bullet ammo at a cost that in many cases these days is cheaper than .22 RF ammo, and it is perfectly functional for hunting a wide variety of game. As example, my .25-20 loads are about 6 cents each at today's component costs. Accuracy runs about 1.5" at 50 yards for 10 shots with a tang sight.

With low load density such as I mentioned earlier for the .30-30, there is sometimes benefit to be found in use of dacron fill to keep the powder in position for consistent velocity (read: accuracy). Some powders are more position sensitive than others. Inquiry or experimentation will show you the right course of action with that. An example of a powder that is not position sensitive is Bullseye. One that is with low density loads is IMR 4227.

End of the day, it all boils down to putting a bullet in the right place and one does that by closing the distance sufficiently that there is 100% certainty that you and your rifle can put a bullet in the brain, or vertebrae in the neck, and that you can shoot from a position which assures that outcome. I rest against trees when doing this as I mostly still hunt. On the occasions that I park my butt I use cross sticks.

Patience is your friend. Pop'n flop.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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So endeth the gospel for the day. Take ye hence and followeth yon advice, and rejoice in the aroma of sizzling venison steaks!


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
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I never cast bullets for my 30 Herrit but I had quite a bit of trouble with it before selling. It was very inaccurate, even with a new barrel from T.C. I had many many difficulties with rounds not fireing. Out of 20 or so, about half wouldn't fire even after identical reloading, etc.


Rolly
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