Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Expander plug dies - MV article Dec. - Jan Handloader

I looked through this article, where Mr. Venturino discusses expander plug size, and his experiences with it. What I got out of the article is that different sizes can work. I have both Redding and Lyman expanders. The Lyman checks .4555" dia, and the Redding is about .457. So far I have only tried loads with the Redding.

I took the Shiloh .45-90 to the range today, to check a hunting load. This is the rifle ET dubbed "a Friday night go to the whorehouse rifle" Load is 450gr Powder Inc flat points sized .459, over 80gr KIK. The result was about 2.5-3MOA, which should be okay for hunting at short ranges. I expect a 450gr bullet should be plenty for Texas deer

Longer term I'll keep experimenting with different loads and techniques, but I am curious to what approach others have tried. In the smokeless world I normally go for fairly tight bullet fit, but I know using black with soft bullets most folks prefer a more loose bullet fit in the case.

There's so much room for experimentation with that...

My primary interest to date is a bit of a priority cascade.

1. I don't want to deform the bullet (Read: expander size and case mouth flare)
2. I want consistent ignition (Read: powder compression, over powder wad, crimp used more to reform brass at the flare than crimp)
3. Load OAL to land contact or slightly longer. (see #2)
4. I'm happy with about .001" neck tension (Read: bullets will not fall out of a loaded case.)

Pardon my spelling?



Rifling engraves the first band on loading in a Stevens 44. .030 fiber wad, .060" compression. Bullet will usually stay in the bore if I unload, which is OK at the range. No crimp used there. It will remain with the case with a very mild crimp. By that I mean one that is just barely visible.

I found it easier to go over to MV's house and pick up the ammo he loaded for me. I works well and is a whole lot easier...

Should you decide you want to investigate further the affect of different sized expander plugs Buffalo Arms makes them in a bunch of different diameters.

"Looser" is not a bad thing, and bullet bump and obturation are your best friends.

Properly formulated Lead / Tin alloys are INFINITELY plastic,...and the "neck tension" that you set up today will NOT be the same a week from now.

Try something rooted right back in the beginning of the cartridge era...

NO, ....lemme repeat that, ....NO neck tension.

With properly formulated, temperature adjusted lube the bullets won't, "fall out".

Fired, and deprimed cases are ceramic media cleaned, reloaded with powder and proper vegetable fiber wads, and the BARELY sized, lubrisized bullet is thumb seated in the case.

Bullet boxes have ensolite foam liners that bear on those bullets that want to "Hydraulic" out from trapped air.

Some here have shot, or seen this "never sweat" ammo perform,and will attest to it's performance.

I'll be damned if I can see why anybody would want to work high $$$ cartridge brass to death by inducing all kind of stress, malleability issues, and potential concentricity pitfalls.

GTC

Prefer bullets to just about slip in using a Meacham seater. The only dies I use for sizing BPCR's is a bushing neck die with a bushing sized so that the expander plug only ensures that the hole is round. For a bullet that measures .459 I use a .459 plug, bullets are held securely. I do anneal before sizing, it helps with consistent spring back/sizing.

It's ALL about the chamber neck,...

....and as regards BPCR, 'SAAMI'chamber specs are just entirely to sloppy.

From the very get go, lead bullet guns shot really well, somewhere along the way a lot of the basics got lost.

GTC.

Don't shoot greasers much anymore but I've had real good results with a push fit bottoming out on the wad [greased of course].Works great with just enough tension to hold the bullet.

Shiloh chambers are tight enough that shooting grease groove bullets requires no sizing , altho it's not a bad idea to full length resize every 3-4 rounds just to keep the case head from getting a bit tight to chamber.

I'll take some measurements tonight. The gun does seem to be very tightly chambered, so I'm curious myself what measurements are optimum.

Yep good advice but the real chits is when brand spankin new brass [Jameson] wont chamber before loading even after FL sizing! These are in the second batch of a hundred I bought from Jameson bout the time they were going South.

Woody, I think I've got a "Tight Base" die for the 45 basic cases,...had to make it up for an old run of BuffArms that was spooled up out of Win.348.

IIRC, I mandrelled the cases and deepene the relief cut, right at the rim.

Lotsa' case lube and a POWERFUL press required, but hey, anything to keep you off the girly sites.

Lemme know, I'll fire it your way

GTC

Thanks Greg appreciate the offer but chit canned em already..18 total out of 100 is piss poor quality control.Ordered some replacement Jameson from Jerry Dean and they're just fine.

Woody, I got a whole array of hammers that mighta helped.

I canned all the bad ones but the wife has em now..should I be worried? Pinched em closed or I would have taken Greg up on his offer..

I measured mine tonight. My brass (~400 cases) is Starline, which is fairly easy to find in .45-90. With a .459 dia bullet seated the case mouth measures .478" OD. A fired case checks about .4795-.480". That's a pretty tight chamber And probably rules out .460" dia bullets.

At the back end, just ahead of the case web, a new Starline case checks about .499", and a loaded case, after FL sizing and loading, about .498". After firing, it checks about .501". It sound like if I neck size a fired case, I might get a hair better case alignment in the chamber. So that's one opportunity. I'll also look at powder compression, and seating depth, too.

Yessir 458-459 generally jussst right in a Shiloh when shootin greasers.

Howdy. That's always worked well for me, including in my Brownings.

Several lessons here, and not all obvious. What should be obvious is that the less brass is worked, the better. Duh! Less obvious is the fact that even experienced shooters, and certain manufacturers, can't see beyond their experience with modern smokeless arms and ammunition (and loading gear and techniques), and try to apply the same to working with BPCRs. At best it lengthens the learning curve.

One lesson I learned is that brass seems to have a memory. Sized brass that allows a nice easy bullet seat after fresh sizing, may shrink at the neck so that bullets seated days later go in significantly harder. I do anneal the necks. This isn't just with BPCR brass, I've noted the same thing with modern bottle necked cases.

I've accumulated a fair assortment of neck expanders, both from Bufflalo Arms and home made.

As others have noted, the best approach is a chamber designed around specific brass and bullet the shooter plans to use, so that little or no sizing and/or expanding is required.

Paul

Here's a hint that can save a few $$. If you are considering special expander plugs and dies, check the die bodies you have on hand. Some dies are inside threaded in such a way that standard expander plugs can be used, so that you don't need to buy a separate body for your expanders.

Without checking the details, I believe there are two different inside diameters in standard dies. For example, I use a spare body from an RCBS seater for my .40 expander. In addition to Lyman M die bodies, other Lyman bodies can accept an expander plug. Reddings have a different diameter.

Paul