Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Question For PA Deer Hunters???

I would like to get some info from the members her as to their experience on the deer population in different parts of the state. Where I hunt ( about 60 miles north of Pittsburgh ) I always see deer.


What is it like where you hunt???

4A public ground - rarely.

2D: Deer are on the upswing and serious hunters on the downswing.

2E around DuBois, plenty of deer on private ground, some of it is enrolled in the Game Commission access programs.

2C, No problem finding sign on Game Lands 50 near Somerset. I get out and about for work and see deer quite often. A coworker reports lots of deer around his farm, southwest of Somerset.

Lack of hunters compared to the past in both areas.

Dale

1B large track of private land. If hunt all day and don't see 15-20 deer I feel like I haven't hunted hard enough. Lots of deer, less and less hunters but also less and less non posted land.

MM

I hunted PA for the first time in quite a few years...private land in 3C in far Northeast. My hunting partner is part owner of the property. I saw 12 deer in 6 hunting days.....two very small bucks. My buddy saw far less than he normally does with one miss at doe on first Saturday. We hunted with his SIL in Allegheny County last Tuesday on our way home...he saw three does to my none. Less shooting than in the past from what he said....take this for what it's worth. Bruce

In 5B the deer numbers are down somewhat but still good.

In 3B the deer numbers are horrible and hunter numbers are down.

I might add that in 5B the hunter numbers are as high as ever and guys are hunting the second week harder than ever.

Hunted in 2G for 6 days and 2E for a day. Those 6 days in 2G I saw 9 deer all does, one I didn't get a good look at. This was not sitting in tree stand mind you, actually getting out and covering some territory. One day in 2E I saw one tail. Only hunted half heartedly as it was raining and I was getting discouraged.

I will say this though, I have not seen the amount deer sign in 2G like I saw this year. LOTS of buck sign just couldn't dumb on to one. My personal opinion is that the bear hunters are really screwing up the deer hunting.

Forgot to mention that this was all public ground.

I hunt east of Dubois and saw 7 deer the first day. It's down a bit since QDM started, as they really hammered the does, but the herd is much more balanced. Back in the day, if we didn't see at least 35 deer the first day, it was slow-but you might look at 35 deer and maybe find one spike buck out of all those.

I live in 4-C. The deer are slowly recovering due to lack of hunters now and the PGC dropped the doe tags down and doe season to one week in 4-C this year. I usually do OK hunting public land, but there are some areas where the doe were beat into the dirt so hard that they probably will not recover in my lifetime. I usually hunt the second week now, but was out the first Saturday. Judging by the amount of shots I heard (Buck and doe open), I doubt there is an overabundance of deer around here.

Spent the entire two weeks of "gun" season in 3A. Most days saw several deer, some days quite a few. Lack of hunting pressure seems to be the primary reason for fewer deer seen, especially after the first few days of the season.

Deer numbers in "my" area are about where they were in the early 90s. Easily over 20 deer per square mile, but it's a mix of agriculture and woods, which makes for pretty good deer habitat.

Several times this year saw over 20 deer feeding in the same field at dusk and in more than one location. While I only saw a few small bucks when hunting, some real beauts were killed close by.

If folks still put on a few drives like they once did in the area, hunters would see more deer.

For the most part, this is my experience in 1B also.

Me three.

Saw 24 on first day with 3 bucks. Passed on a legal 1/2 rack with 4 pts. I mmmmiiiisssssed a dandy on the first Saturday in the rain. It pains me to say that...........

Dad was out last Saturday and only saw 1 deer - which is an anomaly where we hunt.

Game Lands within Lancaster County are a big disappointment. I never saw a single deer during rifle season. But I archery hunt a small parcel of private land in Lebanon County and typically shoot a big doe there.

A group of us guys from church head north to Mifflin County for the flintlock season. We see several dozen deer each day but good close shots are few and far between.

Sherwood

Luzerne County 3D deer herd is dismal.

Hunted strictly northern 2G. Out of 3 hunters we saw 6 deer, I shot a buck, the other 2 saw doe only. Due to health issues, I havent been up much this year. But between family, friends, and locals deer numbers in our area are down by half or so. Not many fawns seen throughout the year.

In 3 days before the rifle season I put a lot of miles on the Firestones and all my normal areas had plenty of feed. Saw plenty of rubs/scrapes. Talked to local bear hunters and most said they never saw a deer during their drives. That kinda contradicts my sightings of deer sign, but these fella's never lied before.

My personal opinion of my area....I cant say the population is off much from the last 3 years. Its low, but I dont think its lower this year. The lack of fawns throughout this year has me worried a bit though.

+1

I hunt 2f, all public land, in the corner of jefferson & elk counties. I hunted 1st day & the 2nd day. For the first time in my life, I saw no deer...not even a tail. The weather was not great, with fronts rolling through - wind, rain, then sleet, then snow, then rain again.

I don't think those two days are at all representative of the deer population in this area. There is so much sign and droppings, it's unreal. I spent a good bit of time in the woods in summer & fall and saw deer every single time I was out. My sense is that bad weather & low hunter turn-out led to the low sightings...and


...here's my rant.

There are a lot of hunting camps where I hunt. From Saturday sun-up through Sunday sun-down, there are guys shooting guns like crazy. Clearly some sighting in & others just spending lead. On top of this there are lots of guys who ignore the no-vehicle law and take ATVs and gators into the woods to avoid walking in themselves. As I listened to the shooting all day Sunday and heard multiple ATVs rolling around Sunday & Monday I realized it's no wonder I didn't see any deer!

I cannot wait for flintlock season. The older I get, the less I enjoy the 1st day hunt based on all the distractions and their effect on my hunt.

2D. Private land. I see enough deer most years. Hunters are getting fewer. The young people in the area have other things they'd rather do I guess.

I hunted in 3A the first day and a half and didn't see a deer. Lots of sign but not much activity. I had two guys decided to put there their stands close to mine this year for some reason and I don't think that helped matters. I think one of them was chain smoker and I could smell him every time the wind shifted my way. I'll probably go out with my flintlock after Christmas in 4D.

For the past 25 years there has been a camp across the valley from mine (roughly a half mile) that thinks getting up there is an excuse to run ATVs on the weekend after Thanksgiving, expend hundreds of rounds of AR ammo and set off ka-booms like a buncha idjuts.

One of their neighboring farmers told me the ka-booms this year, were from cases of Tannerite exploding targets they fetched up with them. Before that I think they were content to touch off quarter sticks?

Then come Monday, they can't figure out why there are no deer in their woods.

Doesn't bother me much, 'cause if they run off most of "their" deer, means there might be more deer on our side of the valley for those of us that came to hunt?

I agree, 3B is dismal. They need to slow way down on the doe harvest.

Numbers in 4E seem to be increasing.

2C/4A eastern Somerset and most of Bedford counties, have not seen many deer around at all. Only hunted 3 days but saw only a few between 3 hunters. A lot less hunters than in the past due to less deer. Many older guys that had been passionate hunters have gotten tired of not seeing deer. we had deer sign on our property but when I think back to the trails we used to have it is sad. It is easier to see the old depressions from trails than to find where a deer recently passed. 13,000 CWD doe permits for an area he size of a county sure will not help. Guys bitch about no deer but will get every tag they can and try to fill it. Used to myself but feel guilty about even killing a doe today

Seems like some have few Deer, some have more than a few and some found a lot of sign, but few Deer showed up.

Weather and full moon seemed to be against some of us along with no snow to help in picking them out. With the exception, from what I here in the North country. Us shooting too many Does in certain areas is another problem, but not in all areas.

Hunter numbers seem to be down for the most part, so they were not out moving Deer into us. However, it has been that way for some time.

Re weather: I recently read an article where they tagged Deer to study their propensity to get up and move. Most movement occurred on windy, cold days with clear sky. We had some wind, but it wasn't really cold and there were a lot of cloudy days.

I hunted every day of the season except one, which would have been the first Saturday. Never less than 7-8hours per day. Didn't get a Buck, but saw two nice ones that I didn't get to shoot at. By Saturday I was physically and mentally tired. Then it was raining in the AM and since I wasn't having fun took the day off. For what its worth, I did see a good many on Windy days.

Some days I saw quite a few and some days only a couple. Most days I saw the most from 4-5:15PM. When it snowed Wednesday night of the second week, on Thursday I started seeing Deer that I probably would have missed earlier. More Deer moving ahead and ones I kicked up. Only obvious, but I wounder how many I missed seeing on the snowless days. The area is relatively thick. They didn't have to be too deep in the cover for me to have missed them.

At least 7 Bucks were taken during archery in the area I hunt. Big dent in what was left over for rifle. Archery is big in that area.

Took a Doe on Friday AM of the second week. She crossed an open field around 8:30am.

Cousin and his new SIL put on a two man drive on his place Wednesday of the second week. It is an area they usually don't go into until at least Thrusday of the first week. Put out 16 different Deer. Two Bucks and one was pretty nice from what they tell me.

Odd season. Not much movement seems to be the norm. Weather may have been a factor. Perhaps it was a season to find a place and wait them out if one has the patience for that.

It will be a small sample, but what were you doing when you got a Deer. Standing around, in a tree or blind or still hunting?

Didn't get a deer (yet) but nearly every one I saw, I saw while standing around. I did put some past my Dad while doing a couple of one man drives. I didn't see them but he did.

Dale

I do believe that one reason for not seeing many deer is hunters not hunting. I mean sitting in a stand all day. Not many people drive or move anymore. The only people here that drive are the ones hunting others property, usually trespassing.

I remember the day when most of us were together. Posted land was the exception. TV shows, the quest for big "bone", Bucks with someone's name on it and a "hit list" rang that death bell.

I think you and I could talk at length about all those topics. You may remember a little farther back than I. When I was a kid, in the evenings my dad and I would squirrel hunt, just going where we felt we could find them. If we met a landowner it turned into a BS session. Would often get invited to hunt deer, and they would get insulted if you did hunt with them. We owned land that we did not hunt, but left others hunt. I've posted here before that I hate Jackie Bushman. That man has been responsible for a lot of the changes in attitude, although it probably was not his intent.

Mostly public land in 4A/5A through rifle season and did not shoot any deer. I am now 35 and have shot a buck in PA every year since I was 13. I know the season is not over with flintlock and second season archery but the deer numbers and hunter participation are definitely off. I hate all of the CWD tags that the PGC offered up to everyone for the taking. We have a cabin in 4A and all of these extra tags sure didn't help our deer herd. My son is a mentored youth and I constantly catch myself telling him how good it used to be. I would love to see the doe tag numbers cut back, get rid of the early muzzleloader season and have a three day doe season starting on the last Saturday of rifle season (concurrent with buck) and then going to doe only for Monday and Tuesday. I know many good hunters that did not fill tags in PA this year and struggled to even see deer in rifle season.

Have often told people we need to stop doe season for several years. If we did not kill a doe next year many people would expect a big increase. However all that would do would give you a few less does(normal death/roadkill) than we have now and their fawns. It would take at least 2 years to show a difference and that would not be huge. Our herd is down to the point that normal deaths take a big toll.

I hunt northwest 5C. Saw a decent number of deer, although the first day was slow. I killed a nice buck at 9:20 that morning while he was running 2 does (first time I've ever seen that in rifle season), a 2nd buck came not long behind them, too.

Most of the deer we saw were seen in the first week, and all natural movement. We hunt a small piece of private land bordering on public land, so we don't drive deer (counterproductive....they just get pushed to somewhere else and don't come back, at least in our case). Lots of natural movement, very little pressure on public land, and the bad weather seems to have kept a lid on the pressure/kill in the area.

High hopes for filling my doe tags in flintlock season!:)

battue, I shot a doe the last day I could hunt. I was following a fresh set of tracks I came across and caught up to it in less than an hour. Depending on the weather (And the mountain has to be empty of hunters), I seem to do the best when walking around. Some areas are different when it comes to the weather affecting deer. I guess they are like people, different area, different ways. There are wayyy less hunters out in the bigger wooded areas than there used to be. That is why some areas are starting to come back with deer around here, but it is really a slow process. We got cut back to a 1 week doe this year and they dropped the number of tags. At last, some reason. I have seen the GC starting to change their ways. The mountains around here have been empty of hunters for the last 6-7 years and the doe population has not "Exploded". That is scarey right there. Like you guys, I see deer sign. That is good enough for me because I know they are there, but there are areas that are simply dead and used to have a good amount of deer.

I hunted Bedford County, I saw 19 deer in 3 days of hunting (18 does and the smallest spike I've ever seen). Plenty of shooting around us, we were hunting 50 acres private. My father hunted Pike County and 25 guys (over 2 weeks) killed 3 bucks, 1000 acres private and a couple of thousand state land.

Maybe this is all part of the game commission's plan, let us kill all the deer with the doe tag free for all so we realize its not good and become better stewards of the herd. I know I rarely shoot doe anymore, so its working.

Gunplummer,

Big congrats on taking one to the end of the track. Not many today
can say they have done that. It is hunting at its finest. I took two fresh tracks Wednesday of the second week. Figured they were a Doe and Yearling, but it was a learning experience. Finally came up on two on the edge of a field where it borders the wood. Lot of tracks went into that field from other directions, so not sure if it was the same two. Congrats again.

For those that have two unfilled Doe tags; why not be happy with one? At best you will leave three for next year and one may be a legal Buck for two years down the road. There is enough cover and it is no longer a question of overpopulation.

Addition: It is on record back when the GC first issued Doe tags-and back then seeing 100 a day was common-those old boys didn't want to see a season on them. Many bought tags and then publicly had a Doe tag burning in front of the GC headquarters.

They were wrong in that there definitely were too many for the available food and they eventually saw the reasoning. However, you have to give them credit for standing up for their conviction. We need more like them today. But was that a time when hunters really cared about the game-even if it was misguided-and have we fallen more than a little since then?

Can I ask where in Bedford?
TomM1 is it not interesting hoe the PGC keeps selling a lot of doe licenses but cuts the season.$$$$$ I hate to be totally negative but the PGC rarely does anything that is not a money maker. Remember a few years back when we were going to be able to kill two spring gobblers. When the legislature did not approve the extra fee it went away till they could charge us. I know a PGC biologist who said he gets frustrated when he puts together a report on the status of animals and the PGC will not follow it. He is the source of that info and they do as they want.

spot on about the old hunters. I keep saying we need a mass return of licenses to Harrisburg. If they got several hundred thousand in the mail, by the end of flintlock season, with a note saying that was the last we would buy till things change. Things would change. It is all about the money. we hold the reins and we need to jerk on them a little

I understand why a lot of guys are upset about doe populations. We still have a fair number of deer where I'm at, so I don't have much hesitation to drop a couple does yet this year. With the light pressure the surrounding area has seen, we can sustain a few more being taken.

I do see where folks in other areas are not in the same circumstance, however.

This^^^. I'm in the same boat, where I hunt we have plenty of deer. I was out with the spotlight over Veterans Day weekend and saw 48 deer (4 bucks, the rest does) within a mile of my Dad's farm.

PGC can issue tags but if they all get used at one end of the WMU and nobody hunts the other end, you get a wide variation in deer numbers. I don't know what you do about it.

Dale

Last year while different than this one, was similar in that I saw pretty much the same number of Deer. Then on the last Friday a good snow storm moved in and they were out and getting groceries. Saw 40 some and they didn't care that I saw them. Could have shot at least 20 different Does.

Thought hmmmm, there are more than enough and definitely the Buck/Doe relationship is out of proportion. Held of on Friday because I knew Saturday with 6 inches of snow would be a great day to hunt. They were holed up tight, but finally bounced 4 out of their bed in the afternoon and shot one. Regular sized Doe and would like to have had horns, but it was a hunt to remember.
Everything was just about perfect.

However, they got a little even with me. The logging road on the way down was pretty much ice. Slipped of the side and jammed the truck into a hole. Knocked the front end out of alignment.

They used to issue doe permits by county. Now by unit which is a larger area. does not make sense. It is impossible to control where hunting pressure is in a large area. People hunt where they want to or can get to.

Excess pressure is controlled in a larger unit. Most will hunt the easy locations, the more difficult ones and the more of them available become natural refuges of safe haven.

Most Pa hunters don't want to hunt a Doe. They want to just shoot one quick and go home.


ADDITION: an old Doe that has 4 or so seasons of experience, is a lot more attuned to her surroundings than the majority of Bucks killed.

Find yourself an old Doe by herself and a big older Buck may not be far away. He has learned to allow her to be on point because she is good at it.

I'm not much threat to the Doe herd. I've kept my Doe license in my pocket three years straight. I'm only interested in shooting a mature Doe, preferably dry, and I just haven't been seeing any.

This is a good discussion.

I'm old enough to remember the good ol days of PA hunting. Shot my first deer in 1975 in the corner of Elk County not far from Lolita. She was in a herd of ~ 40 at 9 AM. I saw ~ 20 I couldn't get a good shot at before I shot mine. Before we got out of the woods that day, I know we saw 100+ deer.

Those days are over. I recall deer numbers dropping significantly in the following years - before the increase in doe licenses. I didn't understand it at the time but do now. The habitat couldn't support those numbers. I moved to east Tennessee 6 years ago. It is lot like the central part of PA - mountainous, laurel, steep, alot of oaks - if you didn't know you were in TN, you'd think it was Renovo or some similar place. The deer density is low; I'd even venture to say identical to the central part of PA. The first year I hunted down here I saw 8 deer on the first day, passed a small 6 pt, and thought it a pretty average day. Compared to my buddies, it was a season's worth of deer sightings in one day. The following years have borne that out. I've hunted ~ 7-8 days and parts of others this year and have seen 1 small buck and 9-10 does. This is a bit less than I've seen in the past couple years but everyone is noting the lack of deer sightings in TN. I think the answer, this year, is the huge crop of acorns. I see lots of deer sign in areas that have oaks and laurel mixed. I believe the deer are staying in the laurel to eat, breed, hide - all without leaving security. I've jumped more than a few deer in that type of cover.

The other mitigating factor is the drop in the number of hunters and the method of hunting has changed. License sales have dropped by ~ 25-30% since the 1970's-80's. We see it in our area of NW PA. So you get a two-fer - fewer guys and more guys sitting. Result less deer moving around. I understand the frustration from those that used to see a gazilion deer but struggle to sympathize. Things have changed and most haven't changed with the times. I know guys that have sat in the same stand for 20+ years. Until this year, my Dad sat in the same tree since 1984. That stand has produced at least one buck every year since 1984 and multiple bucks in numerous years. The landowner logged the woods this past summer. For the first time since 1984, we didn't kill a buck on that piece of land. I did manage to miss one on the first saturday but it wasn't on that piece of land. I've been trying to get my Dad to broaden his horizons for the past 20 years in anticipation of this day. We are in the process of finding new hunting ground in the event things are permanently changed at our favorite spot.

As to doe licenses, I'm a bit miffed but for selfish reasons. Now as a non-resident, I get to apply a couple weeks after residents - all the doe licenses are gone in my home area (1B) before I can even apply. I spent 45 years of my life living in PA and now can't seem to get a doe license. Shooting a doe with a rifle in 1B is remarkably easy although some still seem to have unfilled licenses at the end of the year. I'm starting to believe guys buy all the licenses they can and simply don't use them. I'm ok with that strategy - if thats what is happening. I suspect, and know for certain in at least 2 instances, that an entire family gets a doe license but only one shooter exists in the family but everyone gets a doe. This pisses me off and I'm likely to start turning people in if things don't improve. If you need the meat fine, I'll give you some of mine. In the instances I know of, this isn't the case. Its simply a bragging deal.

+100

An old doe is harder to kill then your average buck, especially f she has fawns with her. I've been spied by more old does than bucks by a large margin over the years.

I've eaten my doe tag a couple of times. I really like doe hunting but with some form of limited range weapon. I've shot them with flintlocks, pistols, bows, shotguns, and rifles. I really, really like still hunting does with an iron sighted revolver. I like that almost as much as hunting a buck. Rifle season gives me more opportunities because of the increased deer movement. It is a kick and we do it alot.

One of the mistakes we made in the 1990's on our land was to take a bunch of kids on the land to shoot a doe. They ended up shooting 4 button bucks. Buck hunting took a hit for 3-4 years after that incident. Many times its tough to tell apart buck fawns from doe fawns but we normally don't shoot deer in multiple family units. Big, single does are the goal.

First part, I dont agree with at all. Not going to argue with you, just dont agree. the forest in our area has essentially remained the same since I started hunting in 82. Plenty of logging every year, plenty of mast, though some years slimmer than others, but enough to hold them through. Im seeing a lot of guys not knowing how to hunt the big woods, or grasp hunting at all. Not judging, cause im in their shoes on farmland down here where I live. Deer kick my ass down here. But that brings me to the 2nd part..

I call BS on lack of hunters and laying blame there. I agree wholeheartedly there are a lot less hunters. But thats no excuse. Less hunters means deer will travel naturally. Bear hunters do indeed get the deer stirred up, but by rifle theyre back to normal patterns. Get passed the 1st day or two and guys go home, lack of pressure sends them right back to normal patterns. End of the first week, and 2nd week, can be very good. But most hunters will still fall short. They either give up, or dont know how to hunt. With deer numbers being absolutely pathetic in some areas, that means you actually have to work at it.

Last couple I got

In the laurel



Escape route




Escape route



Scent checking old clearcut(strong 2nd rut this year)



Not much different than the first buck I ever shot, in the laurel





I dont like hunters, and rather stay far away from you. Dont get me wrong, theyre times you "hunt the hunters" but by far id rather play the deer on their own turf. Just because deer and hunter numbers suck ass dont mean you cant fill that tag. To be completely honest, though I dont like the low numbers, im just as happy as ive ever been hunting. Frustrating sometimes, but no matter the number of hunters or deer, you have to make it work for you.

I agree on how you hunt....I much prefer to hunt deer acting like deer and not the panic-driven frenzy rifle season can be.

I loved the low pressure this year....deer acting like deer are deer I can hunt much more successfully.

Ive got a doe tag twice since 82. Not much sense shooting doe when the numbers are down. That said, ill be red taggin it down home here this year where some farms are getting hammered. I intentionally havent shot a doe since 85. Not sure how ill feel doing it, but locals need some help on the farms round here. Since I havent shot a doe in so many years, the mindset from upstate is stuck in my head, and I find myself struggling with the thought of it, down here. Theres no mistaking it needs done down here though. Some are suffering huge loss to deer damage.

Yup, you have to have that bow hunters mentality when the pressures low. Big woods means lay of the land, path of least resistance and bedding areas(screw food sources). When the pressure kicks in, again lay of the land, but think thick and"I need to get the hell outta here fast". Whether pressured or not, you just cant beat public land big woods bucks! I love it!

These two quotes sum it up really well for me. In my view, half (maybe more than half) the problem with PA hunting is PA hunters...being inconsiderate, wildly disturbing the ecosystem & wondering why they don't see any deer, and bitching and whining about deer numbers or whatever else. PA has one of the best public access to hunting opportunities in the east, and hunters ought to embrace that, as pahick suggests and adapt.

Hunted Pa. for two weeks this year.. Saw bucks, but tough to put enough points on them.. Although a couple were legal.. They escaped after I realized the fact.. Does seem less plentiful..

pahick - we can agree to disagree. My post was not a complaining post to bemoan the lack of deer sightings and blame it on other hunters. I always choose less deer density/fewer hunters than higher deer density/more hunters. As an aside, I too prefer to hunt deer undisturbed - they are easier to figure out than when hunters are moving them around.

I am curious how deer numbers in 1982 compare to 2014 in the areas you reference. I hunted alot in Warren and Elk counties in the late 70 and early 80's. There is not the same number of deer in those areas today as there was in the late 70's, early 80's time period. The deer numbers dropped off in the early 1980's - and increased doe licenses didn't start till the early 90's if my memory serves me. As an aside my family hails from Clearfield County and my grandfather and father stated the same observation - their experience dates back to the 50's.

Something to chew on with respect to hunter mobility: I sense that I'm a bit older than you. As such, I remember the revolution that was the Baker treestand. The first one I remember belonged to my uncle who bought it to archery hunt from. The only treestands I recall from my youth were wooden fixtures nailed to trees. The Baker allowed you to hunt anywhere suitable trees were found. I recall very, very few people hunting from treestands in rifle season and certainly none in a portable before the early 80's. Possibly it could just be my part of PA. This year I watched 2 guys climbing treestands within site of my first location. My Dad, brother and I are likely representative of the modern deer hunter - we've been using climbing treestands almost exclusively for 25+ years. I normally hunt brushy areas that are virtually impossible to hunt from the ground - without a TS, you would push those deer toward other hunters if trying to hunt there. Its my position that this evolution occurred in NW PA, southern NY, and eastern OH about the same time. I hunted all three of those states in the same year during that time frame and saw the same thing.

As to fewer hunters, its a numerical fact that fewer hunters exist now than at about any earlier time in history. Having hunted in more than few States under natural and man-induced movement conditions, I think its a bit of a stretch to infer that deer movement isn't increased when hunters are moving around the woods. The inference being less guys = less deer total movement. Last year on the first day of rifle I saw 49 deer from my treestand. This year I saw 24, 22 between noon and 4:30. I mentioned watching people climbing trees this year. I saw at least 1 other guy from my treestand as well. I saw 24 deer, mostly around noon. I hunted the first saturday, which was crappy - 36 degrees and rain/fog. I saw not a single guy and 1 deer from the exact same stand, with the exact same wind conditions. My Dad saw 0. This past saturday was a repeat of the first saturday. No guys, 1 deer sighting - until my Dad and brother got down and made loops through known deer bedding areas. 10 deer were seen in 1 hr. We've hunted this area for 30 years. We know where the deer eat, bed, travel - travel both under natural conditions and when pushed. I've seen this many, many times in my areas and its not a remarkable coincidence. I probably won't be convinced that less hunters that are less mobile don't result in less total deer sightings.

I'd gather by your reference to bear hunters, you live/hunt in the 'big woods'. I don't doubt deer get back to their normal patterns in a few days after bear season. I think the difference is the amount of pressure actually experienced by the deer during bear season in your area. Overall, I think deer in those type scenarios have much less overall pressure than their farmland brethren.

This was a long-winded way of saying we can disagree on amount of hunter movement and deer habitat. I agree wholeheartedly about hunter expertise and made reference to such in my post - things have changed but the hunters, for the most part, have not. Your pictures don't display for me but don't doubt you've shot some decent bucks or you wouldn't be posting them. My representation from last year - big 8 pt from eastern TN, shot high on the mountain with no agricultural fields within 10 miles; a 10 pt shot from the aforementioned treestand about 100 yards from a PA farm field. I could post numerous pictures of both environments plus a few from western states but don't think this is a bigger wanger discussion. To your point on hunting where no people go - thats why I hunt the mountains of east Tennessee. Love the mountains and the fact that I see no people. I may have a few sheds from bucks I'm trying to figure out. They are there, the people are not.

There is no argument about less PA hunters around here. The shooting you hear now is down to almost nothing. The first Saturday was the buck and doe opener around here and you would have thought there was no season open at all. I am seeing more sign of deer at some areas again, but it is slow. I think the PAGC is getting better and actually trying to correct their mistakes. Cutting back on doe tags around here is a start. This year they started controlled burns in my area instead of worthless clear cut nonsense. Closing snowshoe season the other year and dropping it back to a couple days this year shows they are starting to pay attention to what is REALLY going on. I mean, how many of you guys ever even think about snowshoes? If you hike this area you can see there is a definite drop in the shoe population. I have never been against doe hunting and it is necessary, but trying to control deer overpopulation where people can not hunt by issuing more and more tags is a waste of time. If the herd was ever out of balance, it was when King Alt was in charge. Maybe some of the problems will work themselves out, who knows what is down the road.

When I lived there I used a cigar to be sure I was moving into the wind..... I had an uncle I used to hunt with that smoke one cigarette after another and he was alwaus the first one to tag a deer. Dont blame smokers on the lack of deer.....LOL!

I hunt 3C,

I hunt a few places my family farms in Northern Lackawanna county. Started hunting in the late 90's and feel the hunting's better than ever. Plenty of doe, and bigger bucks are more common. Actually this year some of our crops took a beating. The only real complaint I have is the atv's run the mountain tops and the deer get pushed pretty hard.

I also hunt in Susquehanna county, I'd say there are more deer up there in general, usually see plenty of doe and bucks here and there.

pahick noted something I also noticed, the 2nd rut was strong this year. I saw a few bucks with nose down following does. On some of our drives we put buck out that would not leave doe. Lots of rubs/scrapes that I didn't see the last week in archery. Anybody got any ideas why?

Yes we can. Ill comment more on your post tomorrow. Ive got some major stomach pain going on right now. Hope you understand.




Weather. A lot of guys get wrapped up in moon phase and other such witchery but its BS IMO. Keep a journal, one of the best things a hunter can do for himself. 93,96,2002..just a few of the years we've seen a vague 1st rut, distinct 2nd, and 3rd. If you head back out for muzzleloader hunt like you would Oct 18-30th. Youre gonna see rut activity around the end of the first week on. As I said above, got some issues going on or id write more. Sorry just feeling like crap right now.

In my area of PA deer hunting has never been better. A hunter could could fill twenty tags per day if they were so inclined. If you pay for the tags at the courthouse, you can pretty much shoot unlimited deer.

Hunted 3C for the 33rd year. Lots of deer and lots of good bucks. Sightings went down after the first two days, but that is to be expected. I passed several small bucks that didn't really interest me and I filled my doe tag. My two kids both shot doe as well. Spotlighted the first night after season and saw 50+ doe on our road. A little over 3/4 of a mile. The deer numbers have been exploding where we hunt the last 2-3 years. We need more doe shot where we are.
The few things that I have seen change, people do not drive or push deer anymore. The deer are there but just hunker down when the shooting starts and nobody steps on them to get them running all over. The gangs aren't moving deer anymore like the "old" days. Posted ground is a lot of that. The second thing is partly an offshoot of the first. People stand hunt almost exclusively. Again, not conducive to high numbers of deer being seen.
PA deer hunting is changing, and it isn't going back to the way it was. The makeup of the properties and the mindset of the property owners is drastically different. Honestly I don't ever care to go back to the days of seeing 100 doe and 1 spike in a day of hunting. The quality of the herd is much better than it ever was and the habitat as well.

I noticed difference in rut activity over the years and chalk a lot of it up to the calendar. I don't know how to explain it, but here goes. During archery, many times doe go into heat right on Halloween. I started to notice that this varied from year to year and I kind of thought it was because our numerical calendar does not follow the natural world calendar. Halloween is not on the same day every year. Did that make sense? It would be the same with the rifle season. Even if it is on the same numerical day every year, it is not really the same day. On the moon phase thing. I recently read in the PA Game News that the biologists say it is horse#$%&. I could not agree more.

My "decision" to hunt the big woods, hence lower deer density, wasnt really a choice. I live in York County, raised in York-Adams, and born in 1970. If you wanted to hunt deer, you went north, the deer just werent here in the southern end like they were up state. My relatives had a camp north of Renovo in the 50's. Smack dab in the middle of 3 state forests there was a farmer who slowly broke off parcels, and eventually before his death, all his farm became hunting camps, or lots to be sold. Today, you wouldnt recognize these as farmland. At one point, the majority were all owned by family. Today, theres 4 camps, still on that hill in the family.

I come from a huge family, and family was all life was about, yesterday and today. Tradition dictated that the little town of Tamarack was where you spent your fall, if not most of the year. Until my dad opened his business, he rarely had money to take us on trips to the popular beach destination Ocean City(thought he tried for my moms sake once a year, she loved the beach). Being so, tradition had me in the woods. Again, not by choice, its just what is was. I got to know the land like the back of my hand. Got in my blood. It didnt start out that way. Started hunting at 12 in 82, and whether rifle or muzzler loader, it was pretty much the same...pick a tree and keep your fingers crossed. Rifle season at that point was more tradition, and a mix of socializing, drinking(for adults) and some hunting. For years, I never got a buck. Got close, but no cigar. When I was 16, dad turned me loose and things started to make sense. I still didnt get my first buck 'til 93. And all hell broke loose after that Because of our business, in a small farm community, we gained a lot of farms to hunt down here over the years. A few times I took them up on offers, but never got the big woods out of my system, and hopefully never do. The big woods influenced me so much, in 2002 I moved to Coudersport for 4 years. My family has a farm just north of there in Andrews Settlement, and another across the NY line so they can hunt sundays. Because of lack of work, I moved home here in York County in 2006. But I never strayed, I kept hunting northern Clinton, and Lord willing I always will. Deer or no deer, hunters or no hunters.




Deers numbers were steady through the 80's in our area, exploded around late to early 90's, then of course Herd Reduction hit in 2001, and though numbers started to fall late 90's, they dropped drastically from 2001 til now. Though 2G has been in stabilization mode awhile now, the PGC trickery(DMAPs and splitting 2G into 2G&2H) has the deer dropping further. The explosion of bear, coyote, and IMO poaching, simply cannot give the herd a chance to grow on its own.



I know the Baker stand quite well. One of the biggest sellers locally, and if youre an archer or have been, you'd know of Bowhunters Warehouse which was a big local shop here in York County, not far from my home. And you had John Knapp and his daughters who were excellent archers in their own right. Not sure if they were Mennonite or Brethren, but those young ladies could shoot and knew archery very well. Dad took me to see John when I was 12, and he set me up with a new Jennings Lightning. Rifle season still dominated, but compound bows and treestands were about to make their mark. There were no Bill Jordans and Jackie Bushmans. It was George Klucky Films and a local program on channel 8 called Call of the Outdoors with Harry Allaman, later with Tom Fegley. In our area up north, it was rare to see a hunter in a treestand, at least until the very late 80's. For our clan, my dad and I were the first to bring a Baker, and later API stands. Took others years later to adopt TS hunting, and some never did. Dad still uses a climber, but has two ladder stands since hes over 60 now. I personally have both types, but since I stopped archery hunting 6 yrs ago, I dont use a stand. I prefer to use a small folding seat, or still hunt, depending on conditions(deer and hunter numbers/weather, etc). But no matter my equipment, I still get right on top of the deer. Again, I know the area and lay of the land pretty well. I rarely walk back in to scout. Road trips back old logging roads dawn and dusk and the occasional short walk are all I need. Im not much for sign, due to weather conditions they can be misleading. I want to know the deer are there today, and why, ill figure out if theyll be there tomorrow or not. All I need to do is physically see a deer on my "scouting trips", doe or buck it doesnt matter. Just need to know theyre using it. Ill make it happen.



Each individuals experiences with sightings are different. I hunted over your way 2 years, Just out of Dubois, PA. Actually Falls Creek. Get off Rte 80, turn right at the Sheetz and head back to the railroad tracks, hunted some swamp round there. You indeed needed hunters to get them moving there. That was some thick stuff! Dont get me wrong, more hunters do get deer moving. Depending on weather(and I dont agree with Battues stated study concerning movement and clear skies, ive seen much more movement on extremely overcast days) less hunters have the deer in their natural state. Theyll move just like any other day, whether shots are going off in the distance or not. I know you said you couldnt see my pics posted. To the typical guy in this forum theyre not monsters, but to me theyre trophies. Theyre PA mountain buck. And each shot hunting alone. Im a loner. Which pains me most days, cause my dads getting older and id love to spend all the time I can with him. Back at camp isnt enough, I want more time with him. But we had a talk long ago, im a loner and the woods are a magical place for me. I cant be my best with others trailing me. That said, it is public land and I do run into hunters. If theyre near, my tactics change. If theyre gonna get "my deer" they need to be a better hunter than me, and know the area better. And sometimes that happens. Im fine with that. We're all out there for the same thing.



I wouldnt go that far. Farmland does experience more pressure. But the bear hunters do a fine job of stirring things up. And many people have short memories. Marcellus Shale is a new thing to most folks, but around us the gas industry has been there "forever". Many many old dry wells around us, and Dominion Transmission does its best to keep them filled. Those gentleman have their daily routes, checking well heads and such. Add in locals and visitors(hikers, atver's, horseback riders) the area sees a bit of activity.






No, definitely not a bigger "wanger" discussion(that made me ) just a difference of opinion on habitat, hunter experience, and geography. What works for some folks definitely wont work for another. One thing I see a lot of, especially in this thread and some others is, the basics. Not to offend anyone, but it sounds like some watch too many hunting shows, and base their knowledge of hunting on such. Learn the animal, learn the terrain. Know what they are doing NOW, not yesterday or last week. When I walk in the woods, I want to know what theyll be doing tomorrow. The basics will get you there. No matter how many deer or hunters are in the woods. You were right above, good discussion. Thanks!

I cant agree, unless im reading you wrong. We have studies showing the majority of doe in PA being bred Nov 16-17. Studies can be skewed, and only used as a basic guideline. Here in PA, up north you can expect the chase phase to start around Oct 18th. Down southern PA it could be a week off or so. Heavy rutting activity hits right close to Halloween. Ive taken many archery buck on Halloween, and its my favorite day to be in stand, but as I said I gave up archery about 6 yrs ago. Too many knot heads with new crossbows playing Lee and Tiffany, but thats neither here nor there.

Get an early frost in mid Sept and watch how the deer react. Forget your calendar. I take it you never shot or ate one before, and doubt theyre tasty Watch Gods other creatures, great and small. Squirrel packing nuts, bears putting on weight, caterpillar cocoons....biologically these wild animals know whats coming before it gets here. How why im not sure or can explain. Natures a mysterious creature. Using my numbers in another post, 93,96,2002. Theres others but they stick out my head. Not needing to look at my journals, I know 93 and 96 were blizzard years, but 2002 wasnt. They still had one thing in common, long vague 1st rut, very distinct 2nd rut similar to what youd see first week of November, and a 3rd while sporadic, very very heavy. Now according to the PGC biologists this isnt supposed to happen with a better buck to doe ratio, but theyve been very wrong many times before. Man cant change nature as much as he thinks And I cant explain why, under certain weather conditions will effect one part of the state more than another. What I see in my neck of the woods doesnt always relate to other areas. But its usually pretty close. And deer numbers can play a role too. Special regs areas where you have 100 deer per square mile will act totally different than my area with less than 8, sometimes closer to 3, deer per square mile. Long winded, but keep a journal, pay attention to the weather, and see if you dont become more productive. Id be willing to bet, in time, youll hit a homerun and figure it all out!

pahick - good post. I'd bet we share more in common than not. Funny you mention being a loner and wanting to hunt with your Dad - thats me spot on. I hunt 90% of the time by myself. I don't dislike hunting with other people its just that I have certain ways of doing things. And they produce for me.

My Dad is 72 and doesn't have alot of years left. Just this past week we acquired a 1000 acre lease about 40 minutes from my Dad's house. That means I'll be doing a 20 hour round trip in spring turkey, bear, and deer rifle seasons, plus several work sessions each year. I'm going to spend his last years hunting with him all I can. He started taking me when I was 10 - 41 years ago this past fall. We've hunted all over the US in the intervening 40 years.

Most don't know this but I had prostate cancer 2 years ago at age 49. (who the hell gets prostate cancer at age 49? Turns out quite a few guys do but don't catch it till their mid-late 50's) I thought my hunting days were over because of the after affects of that surgery - you basically can't hold urine. Turns out it was a normal side effect and didn't last long. I have zero issues today but for a couple of months thought it was over. The biggest thing I was going to miss? Spending time in the PA woods with my Dad. Life happens and can change in one phone call. Without getting all Hallmark channel, my advice is take advantage of time with your Dad and family while you can. I've shot my share of nice critters but I come back to memories with my Dad and family hunting in PA. Its a little cliche but the best things in life aren't things.

Thanks, and yes I think we're pretty much cut from the same cloth. Glad to hear your health issues are straightened out. I have a few myself, and I thought I had them under control but these past few weeks has me up and down. And with Mickey Colemans passing from stomach issues, it kinda hit home, cause thats some of the symptoms im experiencing, though ulcers arent a factor(I hope). Docs are kind of confused, so this year will be more poking and prodding. The last picture I posted, though you said you cant see it, is this years buck. Normally, I would have passed on him, knowing what else is in the area. But, I was in pain, and at 7:30 he showed up nose to the ground scent checking a clearcut, as if the good Lord placed him there personally. I was only 30 yrds off a logging road 3.5 miles back in the mountain. Had a 150 or so yrd drag and it took me 3 hours. Up hill, but I could have done that in a half hour other years. The energy just isnt there, though I know it will be one day again. I feel extremely blessed to have been able to take that buck this year. And when I got back to camp, I could see in my dads eyes how happy he was for me too. For me having issues, only being at camp 2 times this year before the season, I was extremely happy how things turned out. Without knowing the deer, memorizing old "playgrounds", and the good Lords help, it couldnt have happen. Which brings me to your statement "Its a little cliche but the best things in life aren't things." You hit the nail on the head. And this year was but one of many I hope to continue to experience. Nice chatting with you, take care my friend and have a Merry Christmas.

Todd

My family hunted the on the grandmother's farm in 4B. It is only 125 acres with only about 20 acres wooded. I sat with my 12 year old daughter. We saw 14 doe and 3 small buck that were in a no shoot area, top of the hill with open sky in the background. We had to deal with 40 acres of corn still standing on our property and the neighboring farms also had corn standing. In this area most people hunt from shanties in the middle of a field with the hope of seeing deer coming out to feed in the fields. Our woodlots are so small we don't drive them out until the last hour of Tuesday. But when the rain, ice and snow moved in we quit hunting to return home safely for work on Wednesday. I hated telling my daughter who had a doe tag that she couldn't shoot a doe on the opening day because a bunch of idiots pressured the game commissioners to reduce the number of days of doe hunting. For you guys that keep saying we need to go back to the old 3 days after buck, you are wrong. Doe harvests can be manage by the number of licenses allocated not by taking opportunities away from kids that only get the first 2 days off from school. I would rather have the first 3 days of rifle be concurrent than have this current system. My daughter and wife can't hunt the 2nd week due to school, my wife is a teacher and can't take additional time off. Also, about the CWD areas increased doe tags. The purpose of the increased tags in that area is to reduce/slow the spread of the disease to protect the rest of the state's deer herd.

Yeah, I have to agree, PA HICK. Definitely long winded. Whit, if the deer are sooo bad in that area, maybe Gran'Ma should apply for DMAP tags. Then you can hunt the "Corn woods" for doe the first day. There are people that take their kids out the first day and they see nothing. I am one of those idiots that agrees with dropping the tags in certain areas, but then again, we don't hunt the "Corn woods".

Whit, I dont think guys are wrong for wanting to go back to 3 days, or wrong for wanting doe hunting stopped in some areas for a bit. Not all areas are the same, but you must be honest and admit there are areas that were taken way above and beyond what was needed. You cant micro manage under our current system, and future adjustments need made to current WMU boundaries. But the fact remains the GC's goals were too aggressive for most areas. And to add insult to injury they, IMO and many others, abused DMAP on public land. If they want to make hunters happy and regain lost revenue while introducing new/old hunters, they need to do one of two things. Lower tag allocation, or go back to 3 days in some areas. The best option, IMO, is taking a look at WMU's and totally reworking the boundaries, and lowering tag allocation.

Not to offend you, though it probably will, people must understand a very important issue, one we will face much more in the future if things dont turn around. The issue of your wife and daughter is one many face. But the fact is, making your issue everyone else's cannot happen. Its a social issue, one of priorities, in which have nothing to do with deer management. I understand how the Dept of Ed treats kids taking days off. Thats something the GC has needed to work on for decades now. Districts will give a pass to a kid whose family goes to Disney and the child writes an essay on it, but punishes for taking a couples days to head afield. Thats a problem. And it needs addressed. Thats what your Senators and Representatives are for. Email concerns to Sen Game & Fisheries and House Game & Fisheries. As for your wife, theres always vacation time, and sick days. If she has neither, we've all been there. Building up time to do all one wants in life takes awhile. Thats where priorities come in. We cant expect everyone to change just because a few have issues. Our saturday bear opener is a perfect example. Totally changed the way bear hunters hunt, and harvest. They thought weather an important factor in bear harvest, with the saturday opener weather plays an even greater role in meeting goals. Hunters just arent hunting mon-wed like they used to. And that can have a huge negative impact on bear populations. Same goes for doe. The longer the season, the more efficient hunters become strictly due to time afield. And with deer numbers the way they are, a longer season isnt needed, or wanted by most.

I was not complaining about the number of deer or the number of licenses allocated. If an area has a low population, I agree with reducing the kill. But that can be accomplished by reducing the number of antlerless licenses issued instead of reducing the number of days. I have had the opportunity to discuss this with Chris Rosenberry and Brett Wallingford. When the switch was made from 2 weeks concurrent to the 6 days, license allocations were increased by nearly 20% to keep harvest levels the same. If the PGC wanted to kill 3000 deer in a WMu, they could give out 3000 licenses and give the hunter from Sept 1 to Jan 1. Currently the harvest rate is between 25- 30% so they need to issue about 12,000 tags to kill 3000 doe. If a hunter is given more time success rates should improve thus resulting in a lower number of tags needing to be issued. The original thought of DMAP was to lower the deep population in the state forest lands and other larger private tracts to allow the forest to recover from the over browsing that had been going on for decades. The landowners were supposed to make forest improvements during the time of lower deer population. This is why the PGC has started using Prescribed fire but the higher ups at DCNR are still anti-fire and are not using it.

Good point on priorities. In my family, we took off the second day of buck season and all 3 days of doe if need be. My parents sent me to school with the required sick note upon my return. Buck fever is real!

As to doe licenses, I think we need to refine things a bit. I get the concept of lumping similar habitat into units but think it is a bit too coarse. Doe numbers have been reduced in many areas - some way too much, some not enough. I kind of liked the county system because it allowed a bit more fine tuning. For example, in 1B people in Erie buy a ton of doe licenses and hunt around Erie/Erie County. I think this is what is driving my issue of not getting a doe license in 1B. Under the county system, Erie and Crawford would be treated differently.

I dont agree with Rosenberry on many issues, doe allocations being one of them. Between him and Diefenbach theres so much misinformation being used to manage our deer that im surprised either have jobs quite frankly. Duanes 2001 study on fawn predation and Rosenberry's willingness to overlook coyotes as a non issue pissed me off to no end the last couple years.

DMAP should never have been issued on state forest land. Their FLIR study spelled out deer numbers pretty well. Deer were not a factor regarding forest conditions. They played their game with fencing, but when the dust settle DCNR enrollment reports pointed not to deer but competeing vegetation as the number one factor in forest health. Points directly at their inability to manage forestry, looking at dollars instead of forest health.

We'll agree to disagree on season length, which hunter efficiency/season length is born out with our archers. Tag allotment does indeed spell out total kill, but our GC has their head up their ass and stuck on failed science. There are many factors in coming up with projected harvest goals, but the weight given to science hasnt born results in health of our forests, and until those in charge figure that out and change, they will meet greater resistance from not only hunters but the legislature. Hence why youre seeing the PGC's game of concurrent and non concurrent WMU's and hunters screaming for 3 day, or elimination of does season altogether for a few seasons in some WMU's. The GC can get things back in order but they wont. Theyll stay the course and play politics with season length and allocation to appease hunters, but again when the results are in you still have pissed off hunters and a GC who could give two schits what they think.

When it comes to Does, hunters have the hole card but will not play it.

Why any would spend there valuable hunting time tramping around were there are few makes me wonder. Then to go there and shoot one and make them fewer ????

I understand that many tie themselves into past traditions of where they want to hunt, but if the numbers are not there then you best move on until they are. Either that or see little.

Pahick,

Really enjoy your posts. Thanks!!!!

We don't agree on AR regs, but time may change things. You say age results in big horns and that can't be argued. However, if like in the past, the overwhelming majority of Bucks shot in Pa-like what 80plus percent?-would be 1.5 years old, then explain how they are going to get old?

Yes, some Deer may never grow antlers large enough to be legal and they will breed. One of the downsides of AR. The best method to grow big horns is to kill by age. However, that takes experience in knowing what you are looking at, combined with restraint on the hunters part. Just isn't going to happen on Pa public land.

AR seems to be a working compromise.

I agree in that I think Deer move more on cloudy days. I also think high wind and low temps are more the reason that how the sky looks.

The same way they are now, and have always done it. By evading hunters. For the first few year I think there was a slight benefit in some of the higher density areas, but Herd Reduction took numbers so low, most areas dont have long term hunting pressure. One member on here likes to point out how big the deer are in his area, but this member wont show you the years of local(to his camp and my former home area) big buck contest results which are about the same as today. I brought one of the contest papers to Alt during one of his sales pitches.His response �f isolated incidences had folks a little PO'd to say the least.

With the current deer numbers add in hunters, or lack of. These deer are making it a few more years, and as the baby boomers pass on, itll be easier for them to do so. Unless the herd exlodes again, and the GC hands tags out like candy, then we're back to needing a kickstart, AR's. But for now I see no need to keep AR's. Many folks will continue to limit themselves well after AR disappears, if it would. This generation seems to be more concerned with antler size more than any other time in history. They cant seem to be interested to hunt more than 2 or 3 days of rifle But they like big racks.



I wouldnt be so concerned with that sub legal older buck spreading his genes. He may have a flaw, but its one that rarely can be passed down through genes. But I agree and as said above hunter restraint is important, if you need big bucks, in some areas. Most areas isnt going to matter much.

WHIT---The PA Game Commission has no exact count of the annual deer kill. I don't know who the two people are that you referred to, but they gave you a line. The doe tags WERE dropped down and the time to hunt cut back up here. In a recent Game News, it was stated that 70% of hunters did not report a deer kill. How would they know? Just because the deer kill did not meet their forecast it was wrong? Hunters can not improve on success rates if the deer are not there. I know guys that used to buy a handful (Literally) of tags for the special regs area south of me. Very few ever used two in the same year after the deer were trimmed back the first few years of the "Unlimited" tags. You have the system backwards and the PGC has not worked that way in past years. If one of the 3 days scheduled for doe had severe weather, an extra day was allotted to bring the doe kill up. I remember this being done. To think extra hunting time has no effect on deer kill is ridicules. The first year of the special muzzleloader season was a slaughter. With the time I have off now (Less) and the time I had off 10 years ago, I can see the difference in my deer kill. The first "Bonus,Bonus" tags did not have any real effect on the doe population. When the doe season became concurrent is when the whole system got out of control. My sister lives out near the Gettysburg battlefields. On the way to work in the evening she would see the deer come out in the hundreds. Finally the FEDS brought in snipers and killed them off because you can not hunt there. Just because you see a lot of deer does not mean there is good hunting in the area. On the other hand, just because you do not see any deer when hunting does not mean there are none. Deer are big animals and leave a lot of sign. If I see sign of deer movement, I am happy enough even if I get nothing. There are now places in PA where deer sign has just plain stopped. I don't care how many deer you see spotting at night or running on neighbors property, if I can not hunt there, they may as well not even be there.

PAHICK-- You put up that post while I was typing. So true about the big deer in PA years ago. I have old Game News from the sixties, and there are photos from "Little deer" counties that have some good sized deer. I think the increase in big racked deer started showing up when Archery was extended past one month. I have heard so many times "I went to bow hunting because I wanted a challenge". The odd thing is that these same guys almost never got a deer, big or small, until they took up bowhunting. What the younger generation does not understand is that the older a deer gets, the harder it is to legally kill it.

Good reading fellas. Thanks all for posting.

My wants/needs are simple. Cut the doe tags back in areas, allow sunday hunting. Family dynamics have changed, mom and dad working is the overwhelming majority. Having sunday as another day to get the kids afield would be a boost to the future of our sport.

I remember the good old days, but would like the AR to stick around with a 4 pt rule statewide. I wouldn't mind an early crack at a horned deer with a flintlock. If crossbows are legal for 6 weeks, why not a 3 day flintlock season. PA and flintlocks are a deep tradition that is unique.

Suppose you want the early flintlock during the nice weather and during the rut?

WTH: Archery gets an month long rut season and crossbows are now legal for everyone. Might as well let hordes of FL ML go out and have a go for Buck also before rifle. Heck rifle hunting in Pa doesn't have much of a tradition.

And I would bet the majority posting on this thread-happy or unhappy with the system-are CF rifle hunters.

Said it before: You want to hunt with a bow, then pick rifle or bow, but not both. You want to ML hunt for Bucks, fine with me. Do it during the two weeks of Buck season.

I wont comment on how seasons before rut should go other than to say, we're killing too many before the rut. Our GC underestimates the efficiency of archers and their harvest numbers, no matter the season, are so far off its pathetic, IMO. Increased predation, not only during fawning season, renders their current model moot. Big changes are in order. Bad part of it all, they brag about being the nations leader in deer management and other states are actually following our footsteps. Plain crazy. Fortunately we have some fine folks at Purdue who undertook a 100 yr study on Eastern Hardwood Ecosystem. Unfortunately its a 100 yr deal. In the mean time we'll continue to have biologists guessing why oaks arent regenerating faster, or at all, and coming to the conclusion its all the deers fault. Hence continued low densities, and actual further reductions in some WMU's. Again, crazy!

Now, reason I quit hunting archery was twofold. I absolutely love hunting in the snow. Nothing like it. 2nd, tradition. As I said before, family is everything to me. When you have 12 guys or so that routinely hunt together, and all of a sudden, one two three what have you, harvest in archery, rifle just isnt the same. When I started to get proficient early in the season, I sat out the rest of the year. I missed out all those years on my favorite time of the year with family and friends. Its a very personal decision for me and I really cant explain how important the 3 weeks of bear and deer mean to me. Theres other reasons, much smaller, like actually enjoying early fall and scouting. That all leads up to the big climax in December that I love so much.

Understanding how important rifle is to me, I must realize how important early season is for other families who've made the switch to archery only years ago, or those who prefer to dabble in a little of every season. So more opportunity is a good thing in my book, though sundays are a no no IMO and to keep the thread civil I wont expand on that aspect. But the early season needs to be carefully looked at. Its my opinion that, in some areas, its having a detrimental impact on deer numbers. Getting everyone on the same page is never going to happen though. We have the old cloth battling the newer generation, a generation that IMO is filled with greed. The only conservation they know is QDMA standards as magazines and hunting shows schitcanned true conservation efforts that pertained to big hunting states in favor of shows based on highly commercialized areas such as Illinois and Iowa.

Sorry im rambling a bit. I just see a lot of negative with future wants and needs of the nex gen hunters. Carry on.

I've been thinking....

We need more early "special" seasons. Like one for those who use 100 old lever actions. 2 days with a peep sight and 4 with open.

One for weapons they no longer make shells for. You are handicapped in having to make your own.

Self made flint tipped spear if you have a drop of Eastern Indian blood in your veins. Certified via a notarized Ancestry.com family history.

For the PC crowd, a Non-resident early opener for those whose season starts within the first week of ours.

One for those who have 2 cranks, verified by a board certified Pa licensed urologist, along with a picture that will be attached to your license. The pic is only needed to make it easier on the GW's. They are handicapped because they probably have little time to hunt and a special season allows them to hunt on a day off.

We get enough "special" seasons and pretty soon we can shut down the 2 weeks starting the Monday after Thanksgiving.

We may not agree AR, but we certainly agree on the fact the GC is off base on the number of Deer taken by archers.

A friend asked an acquaintance why he loves archery so much. Answer? "I can hunt on Sundays."

Addition: Re the forest. Why the big push to mow all the Beech down? Around the ANF the State has a war on Beech trees. Why? They don't care about cutting down a Deer food source. They do care about growing a Cherry tree future cash crop.

Thats part of my issue with sundays but again I wont expand on that. But the poaching issue also had me against mentored youth, when implemented you needed no tag. Now we have tags but we're selling them to 1 and 2 year old hunters. Ok, they say those arent filled but it opens the door, especially when we dont have enough WCO's to enforce the state. Poaching is an issue, always will be an issue, and a big one at that. Head to the hills, any PA hills, in the spring and BS with the locals. Theyll tell ya how manh gobblers they got....weeks before the season opens. Deer are no different. And some of these extra opportunities facilitate such actions. Ah, is what it is I supposed.

Bad part about typing on an tablet is I one finger it and til im done someone else responds or edits their post...lol.

Im not familiar with those cuts but id be interested in finding out. Hear anything let me know, id appreciate it.

My roots and what is left of family is in the country. Poaching was a family tradition and they were not stupid about it. I eventually shied away from hunting with them because you were always looking over your shoulder and it wasn't fun.

Just this year one of them continued the tradition....

The majority of poachers don't reside in the city. Yet the city folk get the brunt of most of the jokes.

Ask someone to take a drive on the open logging/gas roads that go thru the ANF. The edge Beech trees are cut down and left in piles.
I hunt Grouse up there a good bit. If we are not snowed out up that way, I'll take some pics to show you.

I know no one who hunts over that way, maybe someone who does can pop in and give us some info.


I got to thinkin last night and I wonder, how do YOU scout(open question for anyone)?

Personally, It is quite rare to step foot in the area I am going to hunt, unless its a new area, in which I do my scouting in the summer/early fall months. I just dont want to stink up the area. No taking stands in early, checking for feed/scat, setting trail cams, etc. Then I put on my thinking cap and think, where would I be if I was a deer? How would I use this land. At times, I need google maps for a kick start, and memories of where ive seen deer before. Right before the season, and sometimes during the season, I drive.



and get around to some different places





Sometimes ill see this



but id rather see this



or this



Then I know theyre there TODAY. Ill pass by quickly and think where and why ill see them TOMORROW.

At that point, I already know from memory or this years scouting where they will be, and how they will use, the area. Next step is to pick 3-6 spots plan a route that will hit each spot. On Monday morning I hit those spots in fashion I chose the night before. What I want is an easy route that I can see whose where(hunters) on my way in. If I see vehicles I keep on truckin. Remember what I said before, I dont want to be near you, if at all possible. Sometimes, youll have company, most times not. Never know where ill end up, til I get there.

I might hunt here

[img]http://s22.postimg.org/pgrtnfr35/20121126_155105.jpg[/img]

here

[img]http://s7.postimg.org/ui3g05i6j/20141129_110931.jpg[/img]


or here

[img]http://s23.postimg.org/dr0ejmsmz/20141201_082210.jpg[/img]

First thing I do is get to my spot as quietly as possible, light a cigarette to calm down(screw the wind) and know he WILL show up sooner or later(if not ill 2nd guess myself and thats a no no). If it dont pan out, I use a new spot the next day, UNLESS im hunting an escape route. I know theyre pressured which is why im on the escape route, and they might be holed up. If thats the case I give it 3 days. The pressure will be gone after the 2nd day.

Id like to post more, but that would get to basics(ridges, saddles, inside/outside corners, etc) and we should already know how deer use the land.

Again, how do you scout and get set up?

Battue- Not quite sure of what the forest types are were you are seeing the beech being cut. But, here in parts of IN, sugar maple and beech are taking over areas that were historically other species. Usually due to a lack of fire and or cutting, especially clear cutting. Lack of clear cutting, IMO, is why we may not have a ruffed grouse season next year.

Experienced this myself. As pahick points out, everyone in certain families gets a doe license and in many only one shooter exists. I've never been fond of this and also shy away. I have a cousin who's about to lose his license for life due to shooting/tagging illegal deer with and without tags. He's a little slow on the uptake.....

On antler restrictions, I grew up in/around Meadville, PA. It has always and will always produce both big bodied and big racks. I do believe AR has helped grow more large racked deer in that part of PA. I think this is because it allows 1.5 year old deer to get through their first season without getting shot. By season 2, most are small 8 pt and legal but many of them get a pass if they inhabit areas with honest hunters who attempt to ensure 4 points on a side. The result is a 3.5 year old deer. This is when they start looking mature - larger racks, full body size, and smarter than the rest of the deer herd.

As an example, the past 2 years I've seen 3-4 bucks on opening day. Shot a nice 10 pt last year, passed on a legal 1/2 rack this year, and missed a dandy the first Saturday. Before AR, it was not common to see multiple bucks - at any time of the season.

AR in the 'big woods' seem to me to be OK but not overtly necessary. There is big enough 'woods'/cover/area for a mature buck to hide and more importantly a younger buck to learn how to hide without getting shot. Hunting bears in Clinton/Lycoming/Centre counties demonstrated that to me. I've seen some very nice bucks while bear hunting - mostly 1-3 miles off the road in some remote areas.

Overall, I'm fairly positive on AR. I do see some downsides but overall think they do produce more larger racked bucks.

Ready to start work, so quick.

They have been clear cutting 5000 acres per year in the ANF for some time now. There are clear cuts of all age groups. Some are relatively large. Grouse are there, but not in the numbers one would expect.

Our Grouse seem to have more inclination to run. Have Buds with better than good Dogs and we are increasingly getting false points. With snow you often see tracks that end and often the tell tale markes of wing beats where they took off.

Coyotes are on the rise? Do the Grouse think the Dog is a Coyote?

Gunplummer- Rosenberry and Wallingford are biologists in the Deer management section of the PGC. As far as harvest reporting, PGC deer aging teams go to butcher shops and check ear tags and then check them against report cards. Without knowing which WMU you're in, I would only guess that area is one where they decision was made to increase or stabilize the doe population.

Whit--How many old timer hunters go to butcher shops? It has been years since I dropped one off at a butcher shop, and only because of the warm weather and I had to go to work that night. It is real common around here for hunting "Crews", or families, to have all the equipment a butcher shop does. Have you seen the big push at Cabela's (Just a couple mountains over from me) to sell deer processing equipment? The deer count is a system that's time never was. Guessing deer kill? Even if it was a semi-accurate system 20 years ago, how can it be now? Suppose 70 hunters out of a 100 were getting deer in 1985 and not reporting it. Now suppose that 50 of those same guys see and kill no deer in the last 4 years and do not report it. Under Alt, the GC KNEW the lies. I brought up the FACT that on report cards, one used to designate whether or not it was a public land kill or private land kill. This stopped soon after hunters started to complain about deer numbers. A representative for the GC told me there never was such a thing. He also denied that the GC claimed there were 38 deer per square wooded mile in PA, even after two years of record deer kills. I will tell you how out of touch the GC used to be. Are you familiar with the little black and white maps the GC puts in the GAME NEWS magazine? I remember one that was for crop damage (I am guessing it was the mid 90's) across the whole state. I showed it to some guys I work with and they could not believe it. The map showed 500 (+- 10) for the WHOLE state that year. One of my co-workers said "There are that many killed in a 5 mile radius of here." The problem with the GC staff is the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing. The Deer Management word use to be that the deer were eating the laurel down to the roots. For years we were seeing yellow and orange spots on the laurel leaves. I could see the difference in big areas I had hunted for years that were starting to thin out. Now it is accepted that the PA laurel has a blight. Maybe the Tree and Bush section finally talked to the Deer Management Section? The PAGC is getting better, but has a long way to go.

battue--- I don't know what the National Forests have in mind, but when the GC cuts, it is about money. I had hunted one mountain (Large company holding) since I was a kid. A few years back the PAGC bought it. It was always a good place to hunt and still is. I was talking to some of the locals that were around when the GC was surveying and checking the place out. When the locals asked what was going to happen, the answer was "This place is in bad shape. We have to do some improvements". The top and sides are covered with white and red oak saw log timber. We lucked out. The terrain is so rough they can't get in to log, and the one access point was denied them. I have been hunting a mountain in WV for over 20 years. It has a section that was clear cut right before I started going down there. Believe me, after about 4 years, nothing good comes of clear cutting where the topsoil is thin.

I am glad I started this thread. Upon getting a button buck on last day and discussing it with other I am suprised at the atttitdues towards turning in harvest report cards. How else can the GC make changes.

Since I have mainly hunted on the same 1200 acres for some time my scouting is mainly checking on who is doing what this year. Since that piece got sold this year, I'm going to have to get a little more serious.

If I read your post right, once you find a couple spots you pretty much hang out there until he shows up. I'll hang out in one place maybe for the first hour and the last 2 max. In between I'm roaming and stopping here and there for a bit, but mostly on the move trying to see them before they see me. Probably cost me more Bucks than I know, but looking at the same cover for too long drives me nuts. What is going on over the hill????

Anyway, in the course of scouting we run across these also:





I really wanted to run across this fellow again during the season, but didn't.



Some times we run across a little fight over the ladies:





Caught a couple while wearing Lacrosse Alphas down here.

Oh yeah, they are out there. I will never believe the buck/doe ratio was out of kilter where I used to hunt in the 80's. Once a deer gets through a gun season, they really wise up fast and you just do not see the bucks. I was living on the Lehigh /Bucks county border a few years ago. It was farms and housing with scattered woodlots around and behind the houses. We had patches of woods and scrub plus an open power line behind us. I was seeing what I thought was a big doe and three small ones moving up and down the power line almost every day. I was taking classes at the time and was going to miss almost the whole deer 2 week season. I shot the big doe. Surprise! It was an exceptionally large button buck. A couple days later I saw the other three in the woods next to the house feeding. Now I am curious. I glassed them and all three were button bucks. On new years eve, in the morning, I tried for another doe. There were two hot does running around on the power line. I could see Mr. Big's rack as he followed them around in the brush. He would not step out in the daylight. He had a hidey hole down in a patch of woods across the power line that was surrounded by houses. That same day a nice eight was chasing the two does around on the power line. I believe it is the same in the bigger wooded areas now too. I actually believe there are more bucks than does out there where I hunt now. I kind of always thought the ratio was about 50/50, you just did not see the bucks often.