Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Learned an important lesson last weekend

�..not a problem at night---problem is occasionally during the day---when I get up and make coffee, sit down to read for awhile or when taking a shower or putzing around the place I sometimes leave it on the night stand--just a bad habit it get into.

�..with the part about me not being the smartest guy in the room and kinda dim-witted?? Oh wait��

Agreed.

The only point is that the slight disadvantage of not loading the chamber has some offsetting advantages as well. Is one more in danger because the chamber is loaded or because it is not. I contend it varies depending on circumstances.

I heard John Lott of "More Guns, Less Crime" fame on the radio today. He talked about the rate of assaults on cops as 9,300 per 100,000 cops, 40 times higher than for civilians. The rate of what he called "serious" injury was about 900+ per 100,000 for cops. This has a lot to do with their role in society and the work environment. If I was a cop I'd definitely carry with a round in the chamber.

The situation is similar for civilians - some engage in activities and spend time in environments where victimization is more a matter of when than if, while others limit their exposure and their chances of victimization are near zero.

A Sig 938 is high on my wish list and has been since they came out. In the meantime, my current .380 ammo is a handloaded 80g Magtech HP chronoing 948fps. If the Barnes and Doubletap ammo using the Barnes 80g bullet perform well that will likely become the ammo of choice for carry purposes.

One thing I really like about the .380 it its manageability. The low recoil allows accurate placement of follow-up shots faster than with my 9mm or .45. Any use is likely to be at very close range so that may be a moot point. With cold weather I've been carrying my 9mm (Browning BDM) more often, too. I have Barnes ammo on the shelf for it too, pending testing. In the meantime my9mm load are 115g Gold Dot/XTP @ 1252fps per the chrono.

Of course the .380 easily beats nothing at all by a considerable margin. So does my Beretta 950B with it's puny 35g Gold Dot and XTP bullets.

For a person inclined to do so, this sentence could be posted legitimately about 50 times a day on the Hunters Campfire forum. That is approaching signature material (with one grammatical correction). Bravo.

As far as the topic is concerned, I don't recall ever carrying a firearm for personal protection with an empty chamber, whether semi-auto or revolver. I like the KISS principle, where it goes bang when I pull the trigger. I do adjust the hardware to meet what I consider to be an adequate level of safety for the particular type of carry.

Before my daughter left away for college I picked up a HK P7. It is quick, compact, accurate, will feed anything, and a very safe weapon to carry ready to go (round chambered). It requires the shooter to squeeze the grip to fire, relaxing the grip renders it safe. After I taught her the basics (how the pistol functions, got her some trigger time with it, how to disassemble/resemble and maintain it) I sent her to Gunsite for a week of training. She had always been around guns taking her first whitetail at 9 and shooting trap weekly with her grandfather, however I wanted her to be completely confident with the handgun. The gun and training weren't cheap, but I now have peace of mind knowing she has the basic tools to keep herself safe when I cannot be there.

Does everybody get this worked up when they see a stranger not wearing their seatbelt or smoking? Because statistically speaking, those are probably more dangerous than carrying cold.

Of course if they post about it on the Internet.

The OP sounds kinda like my Nephew. He asked me what to get his wife for CC. I've given the same suggestion dozens of times. An aluminum framed J frame S&W 38 Special with a fully enclosed hammer. A 642 or a 442. If single action is important to you, get the 638 or 38.

Nope, he gets her a Kimber 1911 with all the bells and whistles. Of course, she rarely shoots it and never carries it. Last month he finally bought her a 642. She still isn't shooting enough but at least she's carrying. I don't have anything against a 380 ---- if she can rack the slide.

do you think the assault on cop stats are mostly when engaged with job duties, or are they out of the blue attacks.
getting attacked walking out of the gas station is much different than if you are dealing with someone professionally.

You are right, my carry habits are no one's business but mine, although I welcome well-intentioned suggestions and civil discussion. I've been wrong three or four times in my life and was once persuaded to change my mind.

As to your statement above, I whole-heartedly agree that life is full of "vague immeasurability". That is why we use historical data (statistics) to assess probabilities.

Going back to my unanswered question about where you would go if intent on becoming a successful dry-land corn farmer and were in the process of choosing suitable land. Would you ignore average soil conditions, days and hours of sunshine, temperature statistics (highs, lows, daily average and so on), rainfall statistics (average number of days, average amounts and length of rain season, etc.) or would you just go find the cheapest ground you could find without considering the adequacy of the soil or growing conditions? My guess is, as an intelligent person, you would pay a great deal of attention to statistical information in your decision process - and although there would be no guarantees, your risks would be substantially reduced as a result. You would, in effect, be using jpw475's "crystal ball".

When you quote me above you take phrases out of context. When in context most are tightly qualified. You claim the concept of "randomness" makes it impossible to assess potential dangers. Not so. When driving in my car (mostly interstate to work and back) the chances of a random act of violence against me, while possible, are statistically pretty slim.

You may think statistics are moot but this crime map suggests this might be an area to avoid, particularly in the dark hours: http://spotcrime.com/co/denver/five+points

Ignore the crime map and try walking the Five Points area of Denver late at night, unarmed. You might wish you were safe at home...

You are right, my carry habits are no one's business but mine, although I welcome well-intentioned suggestions and civil discussion. I've been wrong three or four times in my life and was once persuaded to change my mind.

As to your statement above, I whole-heartedly agree that life is full of "vague immeasurability". That is why we use historical data (statistics) to assess probabilities.

Going back to my unanswered question about where you would go if intent on becoming a successful dry-land corn farmer and were in the process of choosing suitable land. Would you ignore average soil conditions, days and hours of sunshine, temperature statistics (highs, lows, daily average and so on), rainfall statistics (average number of days, average amounts and length of rain season, etc.) or would you just go find the cheapest ground you could find without considering the adequacy of the soil or growing conditions? My guess is, as an intelligent person, you would pay a great deal of attention to statistical information in your decision process - and although there would be no guarantees, your risks would be substantially reduced as a result. You would, in effect, be using jpw475's "crystal ball".

When you quote me above you take phrases out of context. When in context most are tightly qualified. You claim the concept of "randomness" makes it impossible to assess potential dangers. Not so. When driving in my car (mostly interstate to work and back) the chances of a random act of violence against me, while possible, are statistically pretty slim.

You may think statistics are moot but this crime map suggests this might be an area to avoid, particularly in the dark hours: http://spotcrime.com/co/denver/five+points

Ignore the crime map and try walking the Five Points area of Denver late at night, unarmed. You might wish you were safe at home...

Coyote Hunter...

I gotta confess, I barely skimmed your last 3 posts. I'm not going to get bogged down in the minutiae of your statistical probabilities, however much you might enjoy them. Please continue to enjoy without me.

But I will address one small point of the issue of why carrying/keeping your defensive firearm with an empty chamber, and yes, to some extent it's a statistical thing.

I recently read an internet blog on defensive firearms training by a guy who I know really, really knows his stuff. He did an interesting study to find out what specific firearms skills are used most by civilians in defensive shootings. His source was the stories published in the American Rifleman magazine's "Armed Citizen" column each month.

Our author found that the Number One skill that civilian defensive shooters fall down in is accessing a loaded gun with which to defend themselves. The Number Two problem is getting off a good first shot on their assailant.

This author found that people who successfully defended themselves often had very little time to access their firearm and to deploy it. When using a handgun, the gun was (Number Three point) most often fired one-handed due to time and distance constraints.

Now, I don't know about you, but I do practice drawing and shooting one-handed, and I do practice actually racking the slide of my pistols one-handed (it's not an easy skill to improvise, you need to practice it). I figured out a long time ago that if there's even a remote chance that my defensive firearm is going to need to be deployed one-handed, in a hurry, I'd best have a round in the chamber before the fight starts as I might not have time nor an extra hand free to rack a slide prior to commencing hostilities.

Just my humble. You go ahead and carry on however you want to.

Maybe I'm different than some others here, but I almost never handle my gun when it's loaded so I don't worry about ND's. I where it in a belt holster every day. At night, I slide the holster off the belt and put the gun (in holster) on the nightstand. In the morning, I reverse the process. The gun is always loaded unless I'm cleaning it or shooting it dry.

I have found this to be true, and dedicate a large amount of my practice to one handed firing.

Of course it is true.

I will agree with JWP. say you shot a deer and all of a sudden a bear is coming at 30 MPH and you whip out the auto. OOPS need to rack it because it is empty. Yeah sure, you will point to get a click. Guns need to be loaded or it is a hunk of iron when needed. I do not carry but shoot all the time in my woods. I live where there is no danger and everyone around here knows how I shoot so a crook fears coming around. I can actually go away and leave the house open, like the old days.
But if I had to carry, damned sure there is a load in the gun. I prefer a revolver anyway.
Had a friend to shoot his 1911 and it would not chamber from the mag. I found he did not size and the front band did not enter the barrel unless the mag was removed and the slide was not slowed by stripping rounds. Not a gun to carry.

The more realistic situation would be I shoot a deer and have NO handgun to pull to defend against the bear - I don't carry a handgun when rifle hunting.


My carrying with an empty chamber provides me with opportunity you don't have when not carrying at all.

Whether the time required to chamber a round will ever make a difference is one that can only be answered in my future - and may well never be answered.

Some here discount statistical history then cite statistics in their argument that only a loaded chamber makes sense. They also discount my individual situation and base their argument on the situation of others, which is often quite different.

As I pointed out earlier, carrying with an empty chamber allows me to treat my DA/SA and SA pistols the same - rack and shoot. No need to fiddle with safeties which work in opposite directions nor to think about which pistol I am carrying and treat it accordingly. A single manual of arms has advantages manifested in both simplicity and time.

Tried the Barnes XPD ammo in three guns today, my .380, 9mm and .45. No problems with any of them.

I've already switched out the ammo in my mags for the .380 and .45, will do the 9mm as soon as I get more of the Barnes ammo.

Spot on John!

An empty chamber is a dead man's gun.