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What is the measurement of the nose after its sized in the .363?

If possible, I'd get an incremental die diameter (.364 or .365?) that stayed above groove diameter after spring back, but still allowed easy chambering without partial sizing the nose in another die.

Also, when sizing nose first, back off the liftout plug to the point that its barely threaded so the entire bullet enters the die to get the smallest size on the nose; it also makes a more concentric bullet, since pressure imparted isn't on an unsupported bullet.

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.364" after sizing the nose. I use one of LBT's nose punches for the 45 cal WFN bullets I cast.

That last paragraph....say what?

Alan

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There is an assembly at the base of your luber/sizer that adjusts how deep the bullet enters the die.
If this is not backed out all the way, so the entire bullet fully enters the die, sizing nose first won't reduce the nose diameter, especially with your .366 die.

This LAMII has the liftout mechanism and the depth is set with the nuts on the long rods on the sides and a threaded plug at the bottom of the press. [Linked Image]
I lube only in this press with slightly oversized dies or with bullets that barely size.

This LAMI has the mechanism removed (cut off) to operate like a Star sizer, but with conventional dies. If a bullet does not travel its entire length through the very bottom of the die, it will not be sized at the point that the die is the smallest diameter (at the very bottom) because they are generally cut with a taper.
[Linked Image]

I'd also ask Veral why he's now recommending a bore-ride nose...

Since these dies are sizing about .001 larger after spring back, a .365 die might get you the .3665-.3670 range which will be larger than groove, yet still apparently closer to the diameter your throating reamer is making.

I just don't think you are getting to the maximum travel sizing in your .366 die.

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Originally Posted by GSSP
I use the RCBS Luber/Sizer. The boolit is long enough that I have to slip "bullet ejection plate" out of the way of the "threaded rod" so I can get the boolit in and out of the sizer die mouth. Is this typical?

Alan


Yes, it is, all the way through the downstroke, with the "threaded rod" backed down as far as it will go when trying to size down the nose. It should go so far that the base/gas check enters the top of the die.

Just be sure the "ejection plate" isn't so loose on the upstroke it slips off of the rod (liftout plug).

The nutz on the two rods can be adjusted to do this.

Its best to seat the gas checks and lube before changing your adjustments to get the extra travel needed when nose sizing.

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What i've done so far is seat the gas check, lube, and size with the .366" sizer to .3675" to .368". I then swap out sizer die to the .363" and swap out nose punches to the large 45 cal punch so it won't affect the GC then invert the bullet and size down to just the 1st lube grove, sizing the nose to .364". This is on bullets that have been sitting for several weeks, having had a chance to harden up to 15 BHN.

In the next few weeks, I'll perform the same procedure on freshly cast bullets with a BHN of 12, to see if the final dimension are more or less.

Alan

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Okay, just something to look at when sizing long rifle bullets: how deep they go in the die will directly effect the diameter, especially with LBT designs, because the area you are having trouble with on the bullet is cut even larger than .371 by Veral and the smallest diameter of the sizing die is at the very bottom.

Nose first, with a GC.
[Linked Image]

Knurled lock and liftout plug set before sizing.
[Linked Image]

How deep it will travel into the die. Note the liftout plug(black) and the die pin, when the nose first bullet fully enters the die.
[Linked Image]

Side view:
[Linked Image]

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I shot a few today.

From a 24" #3 PacNor barrel, my 9.3x62 hit 2349 fps with zero leading but horrible accuracy (19 MOA) using 61 gr IMR 4350 fps. 58 gr of IMR 4350 gave 2226 fps and 2.75 MOA.

With Varget my fastest was 2249 fps with 53 gr; 7 MOA. Best was 48 gr giving 1922 fps and 1.25 MOA.

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Whoops. This post did not belong here.

Last edited by GSSP; 12/21/14.
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Varget will reduce to that level fine, but your issue is still possibly with fit and hardness.

Make sure the bullet just barely fits (trying to size JUST the nose can/ does bend the bullet and I don't agree with Veral) and make it as hard as possible. A BHN of 25+ will not be out of line.

If you need to get a .365 die to get a .3665-.367 diameter bullet to fit, do it and size the whole bullet, NOT just the nose and make sure the bullet is sized even.

I've sized rifle bullets longer than yours down .005 (375gr. .418 bullet to fit .412 throat, .411 groove) with minute of angle accuracy and have ran LBT's in ten bottleneck chamberings, most at jacketed speeds, some needed Dacron to maintain accuract, but I've never seen any shoot worse than 3 inches at a hundred yards! Ouch!

I really hope you can get rewarded for going through all of this.

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It's a work in progress and i'm still working. Recoil is quite pleasant at 2k. At 2300+ it's reminding me it's a 9.3x62!

Alan

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I ended up taking the PTG throating reamer to it again, since with the top edge of the GC at the neck/shoulder junction, I was jamming the bullets pretty hard. Now I get just a touch of land marks where the ogive starts and I can un chamber a live round easily. Still trying Varget, IMR 4350 and 4831. Hit 2400+ with 4831 and zero leading. Still playing with 15 BHN air cooled and 30 BHN water quenched. With the throat lengthened a bit, I can also avoid sizing the nose to .364". Entire bullet stays at .368".

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That's the way they are supposed to work, with minimal trouble.

I've had great luck with heat treating and seated to a slight crush on the lands, like you describe.

I just hate it that you've had to open up the throat so much because the as cast diameter is .373.

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Turns out the pilot bushing is .254......012" under nominal bore. PTG is sending me a set of 6 bushings to get a MUCH closer fit. Let me clean up the throat a bit....not lengthen it, just make it "rounder", more true and we'll see where we are.

Alan

Last edited by GSSP; 01/12/15.
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I had a similar issue with my 450-400 using 320gr WFN and 400gr LFN. The throat was a bit short for those bullets seated to the crimp groove, they had to be "breech seated" a bit. Got a 408 sizer from Buffalo and ran that up to the front band, sized the bands to 411. with the springback, the nose came back to about 4095, worked well. Been using wheel weights and water dropping them. Ran the 320's to 2050 with Blue lube to match the factory 400gr load. Haven't bothered to run the 400's up past 1880 yet. I like shooting the 320's better, easier on the constitution with a #1. I definitely like both of those boolits though.

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Todays results AFTER going over the throat with the proper pilot bushing attached to the throating reamer. Seems I can't go much over 2100 with either Varget, or IMR 4350 and 4831. All shot with air cooled, 15 BHN, sized to .368". All 3-shot groups shot at 50 yds.

48 gr Varget, 1987 fps = 7/8"
49 gr Varget, 2084 fps = 2"
58 gr IMR 4350, 2114 = 1.5" I'd settle for this one if push comes to shove.
57 gr IMR 4831, 2091 = 2"

As soon as I go a bit faster, the groups just come apart; 4-9".

I had a few pieces of brass to shoot one group with 30 BHN bullets and a upper charge of 60 gr IMR 4831.

2277 fps = 4.75" group.

Veral says if a hard, 30 BHN bullet hits hard bone it will be brittle enough to loose it's nose but the remainder should punch through. I want to try and find a mid, BHN bullet; harder than 15 and softer than 30. Maybe I can find a happy medium that will group around 2200-2300 fps.

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Here it is two months later and with numerous trips to the range along with the same number of emails, back and forth with Veral Smith, I found my load.

47 (2200 fps), 48 (2210) and 49 (2258) gr of Varget. CCI 200 though I might still test some other primers to see if I can reduce ES and SD.

Water quenched WW that are sized within 1-3 hours of dropping in water. Seems the BHN is not so hard if sized soon after quenched. They're 25-30 BHN days later but if sized/lubed within a few hours they are only in the 12-15 range. I crimp on 9.3mm Gator Checks when sizing. A custom Buffalo Arms .365" Lyman sizer die is used and the bullets come out .367" to .3675". Seems that at .367" the bullets expand the neck enough that chambering is tight; custom reamer I guess. I called Buffalo Arms yesterday and ordered a .364" sizer die to, hopefully, come out with a .366" bullet and hopefully make chambering of a loaded round a bit easier.

After charging the cases, I use some Ballistic Products #47 Buffer...... http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI-Mix-47-Buffer-jar_500cc/productinfo/MIX47/ ......and fill the empty space to about 1/2 up the neck. Without the buffer, I get about 2050 fps. With buffer I get 2200. I also tried no crimp vs a slight crimp using the Redding seater die to apply the crimp. Accuracy was better with the crimp and with the buffer.

I tested these this past Saturday at 50 yds and had the following groups. Take out the 1 called flyer and each group, at 100 yds, for 5-shots, would be .8 moa.

[Linked Image]

Next up is a gallon milk jug test a various ranges to determine my max effective range.

One other issue which could be HUGE. All this time, i've been single loading while testing. I attempted to run several magazine full tests on Saturday and the rifle does not like to feed this bullet from the mag well. With 250 Accubonds, it's nearly perfect except the 1st of 5 rounds out of the mag does NOT want to come out of the mag and chamber. If I seat the LBT's .1" deeper things are better but not enough to trust to save my life against a gnarly grizz.

Alan

Last edited by GSSP; 04/03/15.
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What if you change it to the first of four rounds in the mag?

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Mathman,

If you're talking about loading down just 4 of the cast loads, it didn't matter. It didn't like having 4, 3 or 2 down. It only liked 1 in the mag.

Good question though.

Alan

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I follow now. I had read "the first of five" as there were five in place at the time.

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Did a little test Veral suggested. His email was as follows...

"Bullet hardness and remaining velocity will determine maximum range. Set gallon water filled plastic jugs out at increasing ranges and if the impact makes them explode they will kill. If you just get a small hole and small split in the jug you have exceeded the effective range for best killing, but if the shot is well placed that bullet will kill well out to as far as you can hit. A few years ago a fellow in OR took an elk at 350 yards with a 32 cal LFN started at only 1450 fps. Hit through the lungs, the large cow only walked a few steps and collapsed. Not a good choice for that range, but it definitely says, don't quit shooting as long as you might hit if you are trying to take a wounded piece of game down."

So I tried the test at 25 yds for reference then went out to 50 and 110 yds because that's all the time I had before having to head home.

25 yds. 2262 fps [img]http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums...%202262%20fps%2025%20yds_zpsvtuc8yny.mp4[/img]

50 yds. 2250 fps
[img]http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums...%202250%20fps%2050%20yds_zpscgzecbnw.mp4[/img]

110 yds. 2218 fps
[img]http://vid26.photobucket.com/albums...202218%20fps%20110%20yds_zpsomf5d2cr.mp4[/img]

Can't wait to stretch it out further.

Alan

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