|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480 |
I will if someone buys my Whitworth which is about as good as it gets in CRF .. Your a long way from Utah...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
ruffedgrouse: Thanks! The M70 is anything but fragile and I have seen it keep trucking when conditions shut down other stuff. I'd trust it for anything.
Last edited by BobinNH; 12/19/14.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,085
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,085 |
This was my point, I hear folks lament the model 70 and praise the Mauser for its better specs but has anyone really hunted with both that has found real short-comings in either one?
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480 |
Yes.. If I was in a pinch again I'd use either..Remember to keep the Front Sight below the Nose....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
This was my point, I hear folks lament the model 70 and praise the Mauser for its better specs but has anyone really hunted with both that has found real short-comings in either one? dennis I think in general the answer is "no",although there are some guys who will argue this.What follows is purely anecdotal because I have never had any problems with either design but like you mostly I have used M70's and just in NorthAmerica. I think both have very good reputations for field performance.Pro hunters like Finn Aggard liked and used both as an African professional. I don't recall him saying anything adverse about the M70..in fact his favorite 375 was a pre 64 M70; his favorite 30/06 was a Mauser 98. I'm certain there are some pro's who won't use anything other than a Mauser and vice versa. I think this is kind of like standing over two dead elk, one killed with an Accubond and the other with a Partition, and trying to argue persuasively which bullet is better. On one hand the 98 Mauser was designed as a battle rifle that was later adapted to sporting use, while the M70 was designed originally as a sporting rifle that was pressed into some military and target use. The demands were different. The 98 is regarded by some as more resilient, more likely to keep working under harsh conditions because it was designed to withstand the abuse and rigors of wartime,i.e. trench warfare,constant neglect,adverse conditions, in the hands of panicked troops under the stress and rigors of warfare. Plus it was designed during the black powder to smokeless transition, when brass and ammo were not as reliable as they are today, so the likelihood of ammo malfunctions and blown cases was higher. (JWP called me this morning to remind me of this and other mauser features). Other stuff he mentioned was that the Mauser has three locking lugs,two up front and a third auxiliary lug back beneath the rear bridge in case the front two should let go from an overload or burst cartridge....if we count the root of the bolt handle, that makes 4 lugs(!). It had a heavier firing pin fall to reliably light up balky ammo,vs the lighter but faster lock time of the M70. So what you had was a system designed to provide maximum protection to the user while insuring the most reliable function under adverse conditions in a manually operated battle rifle. Some guys feel that if it will handle those conditions, it will handle most BG hunting conditions in stride. Plus it's hard to prove a negative....if you spend 10 days tracking lions in the Kalahari with a Mauser 98,and the rifle gets filled with blowing sand,but goes bang when it has to (it had better!),you are hard pressed to say at what point and how much sand it would have taken before a M70, or anything else,would have stopped working (I mention this as an example because a pal who posts here hunted the Kalaharia and said his rifle needed constant daily attention just to work the bolt, it got so clogged with wind driven sand). The point being that everything "works" until it doesn't...how much abuse it takes for something to quit is one of the unanswered questions but there is no doubt some designs are more prone to shutting down or failing to function properly than others. I think that Mauser users simply want to hedge bets;the known design differences give them a sense of security and confidence in their rifles. I don't know if this answers your question but it's the best I can do. maybe someone else will weigh in.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,030
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,030 |
This Lion was ready to attack while I was cleaning my 7x57!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480 |
This Lion was ready to attack while I was cleaning my 7x57!! The Element of Surprise. Catnip !
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052 |
Dennis,
Model 70's are fine rifles, but I have seen a few instances where a 98 would have made a difference.
I have personally fired both rifles when a case let go. This is rare today, but happens, and with the Mauser only felt a slight puff of hot air on my left cheekbone. With the Model 70 I got a full blast of gas in the face. Luckily I always wear glasses.
Have also seen a Model 70 extractor "hop" over the rim of a case stuck in the chamber, something I have never seen with a 98, though with a worn old Mauser it might be possible as well.
A minor point I previously alluded to is the 1-piece bottom metal on 98's. I usually take the barreled action out of my bolt rifles when traveling, in order to use a take-down case. The one-piece Mauser magazine/floorplate can be screwed back onto the action, protecting the trigger, something that doesn't work very well with the 2-piece M70 bottom metal.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,917
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,917 |
One of the times Finn was in our camp he and I would discuss the same pros and cons of M-98's over M-70's and we discussed pretty much all the same aspects that have been brought up here. And although Finn's 375, that he dearly loved, was a M-70 - when he had to bet his life of a rifle and stop an animal his 458 was a Mauser ! He said he had seen problems in Africa with sand and dust in the bolt of the M-70 but the much longer and stronger fall of the M-98 striker was a better design for reliability. Finn's assessment was brought home a couple of days later we went to the rifle range and one of my guides, who was using a M-70, sat down to fire the rifle only went "click". We pulled the bolt and firing pin and found it was fouled up with old, sticky grease and rust and after cleaning that out the rifle worked perfectly.
I know that while I also carry my M-70 9.3x62 most of the time, when I absolutely have to kill something I grab my MK X 458 Mauser.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,187
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,187 |
ruffedgrouse: Thanks! The M70 is anything but fragile and I have seen it keep trucking when conditions shut down other stuff. I'd trust it for anything. I rely on 1959 Model 70 and it is simple, rugged, reliable rifle. It is almost as good as English finished ZCZ with Birmingham proof marks. The best I could do on Model 70 was $700 I have seen Engish finished lesser caliber Yugo sporters for $200 to 300 less. Another good one is 1950s english Mauser by BSA (famous bicycle manufacturer from Birmingham). These are easy to recognize in used rack by "cage bar muzzle break" and Weatherby Mark 5 type safety catch.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
One of the times Finn was in our camp he and I would discuss the same pros and cons of M-98's over M-70's and we discussed pretty much all the same aspects that have been brought up here. And although Finn's 375, that he dearly loved, was a M-70 - when he had to bet his life of a rifle and stop an animal his 458 was a Mauser ! He said he had seen problems in Africa with sand and dust in the bolt of the M-70 but the much longer and stronger fall of the M-98 striker was a better design for reliability. Finn's assessment was brought home a couple of days later we went to the rifle range and one of my guides, who was using a M-70, sat down to fire the rifle only went "click". We pulled the bolt and firing pin and found it was fouled up with old, sticky grease and rust and after cleaning that out the rifle worked perfectly.
I know that while I also carry my M-70 9.3x62 most of the time, when I absolutely have to kill something I grab my MK X 458 Mauser. That about says it all.....wrap it up and put this thread in the can.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,480 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965 |
May I add a third choice?
How do the Ruger Express rifles compare to the Winchester 70 and the Whitworth rifles?
Merry Christmas everyone
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 |
They are good, but big and heavy. I would opt for the Ruger African if I couldn't get my mitts on a Whitworth.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500 |
May I add a third choice?
How do the Ruger Express rifles compare to the Winchester 70 and the Whitworth rifles?
Merry Christmas everyone With one of these you get the solid three position safety, but its shape and positioning in the rearmost notch leaves a LOT to be desired. A good option, but only if the buyer spends the money to have a metalworking gunsmith re shape that blasted safety! Has anyone mentioned getting a Whitworth and just adding a David Gentry or Ed LaPour safety to it? Best of all worlds, there. Also there is the excellent Kimber Caprivi and finished rifles from the Montana Rifle company or Dakota that would all be terrific options here. Real honest to gosh Mausers with great safeties. Today truly is the golden age of fine yet affordable firearms available for purchasing and of great calibers avaiable, IMO.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,085
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,085 |
Which of the Mausers is really the nicest? Is the Whitworth better than a Browning safari or??
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052 |
safariman,
I don't know about the Kimber Caprivi, but I do know the Montana 1999 and Dakota do NOT have the 98's locking angle behind the extractor claw that keeps it on the rim of a sticky case. That's one of the features making the 98 just a little more reliable than almost any other controlled-feed bolt action. I say "almost," because the only commercial CRF action I've found with the feature, other than commercial 98's like the FN and Mark X, is the CZ Magnum action, which is one reason my "big" rifle is a CZ .416 Rigby.
I have Gentry 3-position safeties on three of my commercial Mauser rifles: FN's barreled to 6.5x55 and .338 Winchester Magnum, and a Mark X .375 H&H. They work great, but I am not convinced the Model 70-type safety is the greatest on earth. Jeff Cooper picked the rocker-type safety on the 1917 Enfield, in the same position as the Rem. 700's, because it also locked the bolt down and cammed the firing pin back, but didn't require as much movement as the Model 70-type, and didn't stick out so far it could be inadvertently moved. The CZ has exactly that type of safety, which is why I have never changed the one on my .416. Unfortunately, nobody offers a 1917 safety for Mausers.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,879
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,879 |
Mule Deer is spot on, just because an action has an extractor that resembles a Mauser it doesn't mean they are equall
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052 |
Dennis,
The Browning Safari actions aren't always true Mauser 98's, as some have push-feed instead of claw extractors.
The true 98-style FN's are very good, as are Brnos and some others. Mark X's are also very good, but unless they're Whitworths they're not usually as finely finished as FN's. The best bargains are often Mark X's; as a matter of fact I picked up a complete Mark X .300 Winchester Magnum a month or so ago in a local store for $299! That's unsual, and I have no idea what I'm going to do with it, but the price was too good to pass up. Often, however, you can find JC Higgins rifles with FN actions for $400 or so. Both my 6.5x55 and .338 are built on FN actions from JC Higgins rifles.
Once in a while you can also find relatively cheap custom rifles with military 98 actions that have been correctly sporterized. My 7mm Remington Magnum is such a rifle, well-built on a 1909 Argentine action. It looks like the rifle was never quite finished, for who knows what reason, since the nice classic-style stock isn't checkered, and the military trigger hadn't been replaced. There are no markings to indicate who made it, or even the barrel, but it shoots very well. I got it off the Campfire Classifieds for $400, about what many here would pay for a Remington 700 donor action.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,735
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,735 |
One of the times Finn was in our camp he and I would discuss the same pros and cons of M-98's over M-70's and we discussed pretty much all the same aspects that have been brought up here. And although Finn's 375, that he dearly loved, was a M-70 - when he had to bet his life of a rifle and stop an animal his 458 was a Mauser ! He said he had seen problems in Africa with sand and dust in the bolt of the M-70 but the much longer and stronger fall of the M-98 striker was a better design for reliability. Finn's assessment was brought home a couple of days later we went to the rifle range and one of my guides, who was using a M-70, sat down to fire the rifle only went "click". We pulled the bolt and firing pin and found it was fouled up with old, sticky grease and rust and after cleaning that out the rifle worked perfectly.
I know that while I also carry my M-70 9.3x62 most of the time, when I absolutely have to kill something I grab my MK X 458 Mauser. That about says it all.....wrap it up and put this thread in the can. Well, not so fast. With all due respect to the posters, the M-70's failure to fire was the result of an inattentive guide not maintaining his rifle. The "old, sticky grease and rust" did NOT just appear overnight but over an extended period of time. This does not, in my opinion diminish the M-70 but demonstrates what can happen if you are lazy and irresponsible. This was a "failure to perform" that resulted in a "failure to fire".
Last edited by bigwhoop; 12/22/14.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
|
|
|
|
636 members (06hunter59, 1eyedmule, 007FJ, 1beaver_shooter, 160user, 1936M71, 66 invisible),
3,281
guests, and
1,229
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,190,590
Posts18,454,293
Members73,908
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|