Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Question For PA Deer Hunters???

Hunted 3C for the 33rd year. Lots of deer and lots of good bucks. Sightings went down after the first two days, but that is to be expected. I passed several small bucks that didn't really interest me and I filled my doe tag. My two kids both shot doe as well. Spotlighted the first night after season and saw 50+ doe on our road. A little over 3/4 of a mile. The deer numbers have been exploding where we hunt the last 2-3 years. We need more doe shot where we are.
The few things that I have seen change, people do not drive or push deer anymore. The deer are there but just hunker down when the shooting starts and nobody steps on them to get them running all over. The gangs aren't moving deer anymore like the "old" days. Posted ground is a lot of that. The second thing is partly an offshoot of the first. People stand hunt almost exclusively. Again, not conducive to high numbers of deer being seen.
PA deer hunting is changing, and it isn't going back to the way it was. The makeup of the properties and the mindset of the property owners is drastically different. Honestly I don't ever care to go back to the days of seeing 100 doe and 1 spike in a day of hunting. The quality of the herd is much better than it ever was and the habitat as well.

I noticed difference in rut activity over the years and chalk a lot of it up to the calendar. I don't know how to explain it, but here goes. During archery, many times doe go into heat right on Halloween. I started to notice that this varied from year to year and I kind of thought it was because our numerical calendar does not follow the natural world calendar. Halloween is not on the same day every year. Did that make sense? It would be the same with the rifle season. Even if it is on the same numerical day every year, it is not really the same day. On the moon phase thing. I recently read in the PA Game News that the biologists say it is horse#$%&. I could not agree more.

My "decision" to hunt the big woods, hence lower deer density, wasnt really a choice. I live in York County, raised in York-Adams, and born in 1970. If you wanted to hunt deer, you went north, the deer just werent here in the southern end like they were up state. My relatives had a camp north of Renovo in the 50's. Smack dab in the middle of 3 state forests there was a farmer who slowly broke off parcels, and eventually before his death, all his farm became hunting camps, or lots to be sold. Today, you wouldnt recognize these as farmland. At one point, the majority were all owned by family. Today, theres 4 camps, still on that hill in the family.

I come from a huge family, and family was all life was about, yesterday and today. Tradition dictated that the little town of Tamarack was where you spent your fall, if not most of the year. Until my dad opened his business, he rarely had money to take us on trips to the popular beach destination Ocean City(thought he tried for my moms sake once a year, she loved the beach). Being so, tradition had me in the woods. Again, not by choice, its just what is was. I got to know the land like the back of my hand. Got in my blood. It didnt start out that way. Started hunting at 12 in 82, and whether rifle or muzzler loader, it was pretty much the same...pick a tree and keep your fingers crossed. Rifle season at that point was more tradition, and a mix of socializing, drinking(for adults) and some hunting. For years, I never got a buck. Got close, but no cigar. When I was 16, dad turned me loose and things started to make sense. I still didnt get my first buck 'til 93. And all hell broke loose after that Because of our business, in a small farm community, we gained a lot of farms to hunt down here over the years. A few times I took them up on offers, but never got the big woods out of my system, and hopefully never do. The big woods influenced me so much, in 2002 I moved to Coudersport for 4 years. My family has a farm just north of there in Andrews Settlement, and another across the NY line so they can hunt sundays. Because of lack of work, I moved home here in York County in 2006. But I never strayed, I kept hunting northern Clinton, and Lord willing I always will. Deer or no deer, hunters or no hunters.




Deers numbers were steady through the 80's in our area, exploded around late to early 90's, then of course Herd Reduction hit in 2001, and though numbers started to fall late 90's, they dropped drastically from 2001 til now. Though 2G has been in stabilization mode awhile now, the PGC trickery(DMAPs and splitting 2G into 2G&2H) has the deer dropping further. The explosion of bear, coyote, and IMO poaching, simply cannot give the herd a chance to grow on its own.



I know the Baker stand quite well. One of the biggest sellers locally, and if youre an archer or have been, you'd know of Bowhunters Warehouse which was a big local shop here in York County, not far from my home. And you had John Knapp and his daughters who were excellent archers in their own right. Not sure if they were Mennonite or Brethren, but those young ladies could shoot and knew archery very well. Dad took me to see John when I was 12, and he set me up with a new Jennings Lightning. Rifle season still dominated, but compound bows and treestands were about to make their mark. There were no Bill Jordans and Jackie Bushmans. It was George Klucky Films and a local program on channel 8 called Call of the Outdoors with Harry Allaman, later with Tom Fegley. In our area up north, it was rare to see a hunter in a treestand, at least until the very late 80's. For our clan, my dad and I were the first to bring a Baker, and later API stands. Took others years later to adopt TS hunting, and some never did. Dad still uses a climber, but has two ladder stands since hes over 60 now. I personally have both types, but since I stopped archery hunting 6 yrs ago, I dont use a stand. I prefer to use a small folding seat, or still hunt, depending on conditions(deer and hunter numbers/weather, etc). But no matter my equipment, I still get right on top of the deer. Again, I know the area and lay of the land pretty well. I rarely walk back in to scout. Road trips back old logging roads dawn and dusk and the occasional short walk are all I need. Im not much for sign, due to weather conditions they can be misleading. I want to know the deer are there today, and why, ill figure out if theyll be there tomorrow or not. All I need to do is physically see a deer on my "scouting trips", doe or buck it doesnt matter. Just need to know theyre using it. Ill make it happen.



Each individuals experiences with sightings are different. I hunted over your way 2 years, Just out of Dubois, PA. Actually Falls Creek. Get off Rte 80, turn right at the Sheetz and head back to the railroad tracks, hunted some swamp round there. You indeed needed hunters to get them moving there. That was some thick stuff! Dont get me wrong, more hunters do get deer moving. Depending on weather(and I dont agree with Battues stated study concerning movement and clear skies, ive seen much more movement on extremely overcast days) less hunters have the deer in their natural state. Theyll move just like any other day, whether shots are going off in the distance or not. I know you said you couldnt see my pics posted. To the typical guy in this forum theyre not monsters, but to me theyre trophies. Theyre PA mountain buck. And each shot hunting alone. Im a loner. Which pains me most days, cause my dads getting older and id love to spend all the time I can with him. Back at camp isnt enough, I want more time with him. But we had a talk long ago, im a loner and the woods are a magical place for me. I cant be my best with others trailing me. That said, it is public land and I do run into hunters. If theyre near, my tactics change. If theyre gonna get "my deer" they need to be a better hunter than me, and know the area better. And sometimes that happens. Im fine with that. We're all out there for the same thing.



I wouldnt go that far. Farmland does experience more pressure. But the bear hunters do a fine job of stirring things up. And many people have short memories. Marcellus Shale is a new thing to most folks, but around us the gas industry has been there "forever". Many many old dry wells around us, and Dominion Transmission does its best to keep them filled. Those gentleman have their daily routes, checking well heads and such. Add in locals and visitors(hikers, atver's, horseback riders) the area sees a bit of activity.






No, definitely not a bigger "wanger" discussion(that made me ) just a difference of opinion on habitat, hunter experience, and geography. What works for some folks definitely wont work for another. One thing I see a lot of, especially in this thread and some others is, the basics. Not to offend anyone, but it sounds like some watch too many hunting shows, and base their knowledge of hunting on such. Learn the animal, learn the terrain. Know what they are doing NOW, not yesterday or last week. When I walk in the woods, I want to know what theyll be doing tomorrow. The basics will get you there. No matter how many deer or hunters are in the woods. You were right above, good discussion. Thanks!

I cant agree, unless im reading you wrong. We have studies showing the majority of doe in PA being bred Nov 16-17. Studies can be skewed, and only used as a basic guideline. Here in PA, up north you can expect the chase phase to start around Oct 18th. Down southern PA it could be a week off or so. Heavy rutting activity hits right close to Halloween. Ive taken many archery buck on Halloween, and its my favorite day to be in stand, but as I said I gave up archery about 6 yrs ago. Too many knot heads with new crossbows playing Lee and Tiffany, but thats neither here nor there.

Get an early frost in mid Sept and watch how the deer react. Forget your calendar. I take it you never shot or ate one before, and doubt theyre tasty Watch Gods other creatures, great and small. Squirrel packing nuts, bears putting on weight, caterpillar cocoons....biologically these wild animals know whats coming before it gets here. How why im not sure or can explain. Natures a mysterious creature. Using my numbers in another post, 93,96,2002. Theres others but they stick out my head. Not needing to look at my journals, I know 93 and 96 were blizzard years, but 2002 wasnt. They still had one thing in common, long vague 1st rut, very distinct 2nd rut similar to what youd see first week of November, and a 3rd while sporadic, very very heavy. Now according to the PGC biologists this isnt supposed to happen with a better buck to doe ratio, but theyve been very wrong many times before. Man cant change nature as much as he thinks And I cant explain why, under certain weather conditions will effect one part of the state more than another. What I see in my neck of the woods doesnt always relate to other areas. But its usually pretty close. And deer numbers can play a role too. Special regs areas where you have 100 deer per square mile will act totally different than my area with less than 8, sometimes closer to 3, deer per square mile. Long winded, but keep a journal, pay attention to the weather, and see if you dont become more productive. Id be willing to bet, in time, youll hit a homerun and figure it all out!

pahick - good post. I'd bet we share more in common than not. Funny you mention being a loner and wanting to hunt with your Dad - thats me spot on. I hunt 90% of the time by myself. I don't dislike hunting with other people its just that I have certain ways of doing things. And they produce for me.

My Dad is 72 and doesn't have alot of years left. Just this past week we acquired a 1000 acre lease about 40 minutes from my Dad's house. That means I'll be doing a 20 hour round trip in spring turkey, bear, and deer rifle seasons, plus several work sessions each year. I'm going to spend his last years hunting with him all I can. He started taking me when I was 10 - 41 years ago this past fall. We've hunted all over the US in the intervening 40 years.

Most don't know this but I had prostate cancer 2 years ago at age 49. (who the hell gets prostate cancer at age 49? Turns out quite a few guys do but don't catch it till their mid-late 50's) I thought my hunting days were over because of the after affects of that surgery - you basically can't hold urine. Turns out it was a normal side effect and didn't last long. I have zero issues today but for a couple of months thought it was over. The biggest thing I was going to miss? Spending time in the PA woods with my Dad. Life happens and can change in one phone call. Without getting all Hallmark channel, my advice is take advantage of time with your Dad and family while you can. I've shot my share of nice critters but I come back to memories with my Dad and family hunting in PA. Its a little cliche but the best things in life aren't things.

Thanks, and yes I think we're pretty much cut from the same cloth. Glad to hear your health issues are straightened out. I have a few myself, and I thought I had them under control but these past few weeks has me up and down. And with Mickey Colemans passing from stomach issues, it kinda hit home, cause thats some of the symptoms im experiencing, though ulcers arent a factor(I hope). Docs are kind of confused, so this year will be more poking and prodding. The last picture I posted, though you said you cant see it, is this years buck. Normally, I would have passed on him, knowing what else is in the area. But, I was in pain, and at 7:30 he showed up nose to the ground scent checking a clearcut, as if the good Lord placed him there personally. I was only 30 yrds off a logging road 3.5 miles back in the mountain. Had a 150 or so yrd drag and it took me 3 hours. Up hill, but I could have done that in a half hour other years. The energy just isnt there, though I know it will be one day again. I feel extremely blessed to have been able to take that buck this year. And when I got back to camp, I could see in my dads eyes how happy he was for me too. For me having issues, only being at camp 2 times this year before the season, I was extremely happy how things turned out. Without knowing the deer, memorizing old "playgrounds", and the good Lords help, it couldnt have happen. Which brings me to your statement "Its a little cliche but the best things in life aren't things." You hit the nail on the head. And this year was but one of many I hope to continue to experience. Nice chatting with you, take care my friend and have a Merry Christmas.

Todd

My family hunted the on the grandmother's farm in 4B. It is only 125 acres with only about 20 acres wooded. I sat with my 12 year old daughter. We saw 14 doe and 3 small buck that were in a no shoot area, top of the hill with open sky in the background. We had to deal with 40 acres of corn still standing on our property and the neighboring farms also had corn standing. In this area most people hunt from shanties in the middle of a field with the hope of seeing deer coming out to feed in the fields. Our woodlots are so small we don't drive them out until the last hour of Tuesday. But when the rain, ice and snow moved in we quit hunting to return home safely for work on Wednesday. I hated telling my daughter who had a doe tag that she couldn't shoot a doe on the opening day because a bunch of idiots pressured the game commissioners to reduce the number of days of doe hunting. For you guys that keep saying we need to go back to the old 3 days after buck, you are wrong. Doe harvests can be manage by the number of licenses allocated not by taking opportunities away from kids that only get the first 2 days off from school. I would rather have the first 3 days of rifle be concurrent than have this current system. My daughter and wife can't hunt the 2nd week due to school, my wife is a teacher and can't take additional time off. Also, about the CWD areas increased doe tags. The purpose of the increased tags in that area is to reduce/slow the spread of the disease to protect the rest of the state's deer herd.

Yeah, I have to agree, PA HICK. Definitely long winded. Whit, if the deer are sooo bad in that area, maybe Gran'Ma should apply for DMAP tags. Then you can hunt the "Corn woods" for doe the first day. There are people that take their kids out the first day and they see nothing. I am one of those idiots that agrees with dropping the tags in certain areas, but then again, we don't hunt the "Corn woods".

Whit, I dont think guys are wrong for wanting to go back to 3 days, or wrong for wanting doe hunting stopped in some areas for a bit. Not all areas are the same, but you must be honest and admit there are areas that were taken way above and beyond what was needed. You cant micro manage under our current system, and future adjustments need made to current WMU boundaries. But the fact remains the GC's goals were too aggressive for most areas. And to add insult to injury they, IMO and many others, abused DMAP on public land. If they want to make hunters happy and regain lost revenue while introducing new/old hunters, they need to do one of two things. Lower tag allocation, or go back to 3 days in some areas. The best option, IMO, is taking a look at WMU's and totally reworking the boundaries, and lowering tag allocation.

Not to offend you, though it probably will, people must understand a very important issue, one we will face much more in the future if things dont turn around. The issue of your wife and daughter is one many face. But the fact is, making your issue everyone else's cannot happen. Its a social issue, one of priorities, in which have nothing to do with deer management. I understand how the Dept of Ed treats kids taking days off. Thats something the GC has needed to work on for decades now. Districts will give a pass to a kid whose family goes to Disney and the child writes an essay on it, but punishes for taking a couples days to head afield. Thats a problem. And it needs addressed. Thats what your Senators and Representatives are for. Email concerns to Sen Game & Fisheries and House Game & Fisheries. As for your wife, theres always vacation time, and sick days. If she has neither, we've all been there. Building up time to do all one wants in life takes awhile. Thats where priorities come in. We cant expect everyone to change just because a few have issues. Our saturday bear opener is a perfect example. Totally changed the way bear hunters hunt, and harvest. They thought weather an important factor in bear harvest, with the saturday opener weather plays an even greater role in meeting goals. Hunters just arent hunting mon-wed like they used to. And that can have a huge negative impact on bear populations. Same goes for doe. The longer the season, the more efficient hunters become strictly due to time afield. And with deer numbers the way they are, a longer season isnt needed, or wanted by most.

I was not complaining about the number of deer or the number of licenses allocated. If an area has a low population, I agree with reducing the kill. But that can be accomplished by reducing the number of antlerless licenses issued instead of reducing the number of days. I have had the opportunity to discuss this with Chris Rosenberry and Brett Wallingford. When the switch was made from 2 weeks concurrent to the 6 days, license allocations were increased by nearly 20% to keep harvest levels the same. If the PGC wanted to kill 3000 deer in a WMu, they could give out 3000 licenses and give the hunter from Sept 1 to Jan 1. Currently the harvest rate is between 25- 30% so they need to issue about 12,000 tags to kill 3000 doe. If a hunter is given more time success rates should improve thus resulting in a lower number of tags needing to be issued. The original thought of DMAP was to lower the deep population in the state forest lands and other larger private tracts to allow the forest to recover from the over browsing that had been going on for decades. The landowners were supposed to make forest improvements during the time of lower deer population. This is why the PGC has started using Prescribed fire but the higher ups at DCNR are still anti-fire and are not using it.

Good point on priorities. In my family, we took off the second day of buck season and all 3 days of doe if need be. My parents sent me to school with the required sick note upon my return. Buck fever is real!

As to doe licenses, I think we need to refine things a bit. I get the concept of lumping similar habitat into units but think it is a bit too coarse. Doe numbers have been reduced in many areas - some way too much, some not enough. I kind of liked the county system because it allowed a bit more fine tuning. For example, in 1B people in Erie buy a ton of doe licenses and hunt around Erie/Erie County. I think this is what is driving my issue of not getting a doe license in 1B. Under the county system, Erie and Crawford would be treated differently.

I dont agree with Rosenberry on many issues, doe allocations being one of them. Between him and Diefenbach theres so much misinformation being used to manage our deer that im surprised either have jobs quite frankly. Duanes 2001 study on fawn predation and Rosenberry's willingness to overlook coyotes as a non issue pissed me off to no end the last couple years.

DMAP should never have been issued on state forest land. Their FLIR study spelled out deer numbers pretty well. Deer were not a factor regarding forest conditions. They played their game with fencing, but when the dust settle DCNR enrollment reports pointed not to deer but competeing vegetation as the number one factor in forest health. Points directly at their inability to manage forestry, looking at dollars instead of forest health.

We'll agree to disagree on season length, which hunter efficiency/season length is born out with our archers. Tag allotment does indeed spell out total kill, but our GC has their head up their ass and stuck on failed science. There are many factors in coming up with projected harvest goals, but the weight given to science hasnt born results in health of our forests, and until those in charge figure that out and change, they will meet greater resistance from not only hunters but the legislature. Hence why youre seeing the PGC's game of concurrent and non concurrent WMU's and hunters screaming for 3 day, or elimination of does season altogether for a few seasons in some WMU's. The GC can get things back in order but they wont. Theyll stay the course and play politics with season length and allocation to appease hunters, but again when the results are in you still have pissed off hunters and a GC who could give two schits what they think.

When it comes to Does, hunters have the hole card but will not play it.

Why any would spend there valuable hunting time tramping around were there are few makes me wonder. Then to go there and shoot one and make them fewer ????

I understand that many tie themselves into past traditions of where they want to hunt, but if the numbers are not there then you best move on until they are. Either that or see little.

Pahick,

Really enjoy your posts. Thanks!!!!

We don't agree on AR regs, but time may change things. You say age results in big horns and that can't be argued. However, if like in the past, the overwhelming majority of Bucks shot in Pa-like what 80plus percent?-would be 1.5 years old, then explain how they are going to get old?

Yes, some Deer may never grow antlers large enough to be legal and they will breed. One of the downsides of AR. The best method to grow big horns is to kill by age. However, that takes experience in knowing what you are looking at, combined with restraint on the hunters part. Just isn't going to happen on Pa public land.

AR seems to be a working compromise.

I agree in that I think Deer move more on cloudy days. I also think high wind and low temps are more the reason that how the sky looks.

The same way they are now, and have always done it. By evading hunters. For the first few year I think there was a slight benefit in some of the higher density areas, but Herd Reduction took numbers so low, most areas dont have long term hunting pressure. One member on here likes to point out how big the deer are in his area, but this member wont show you the years of local(to his camp and my former home area) big buck contest results which are about the same as today. I brought one of the contest papers to Alt during one of his sales pitches.His response �f isolated incidences had folks a little PO'd to say the least.

With the current deer numbers add in hunters, or lack of. These deer are making it a few more years, and as the baby boomers pass on, itll be easier for them to do so. Unless the herd exlodes again, and the GC hands tags out like candy, then we're back to needing a kickstart, AR's. But for now I see no need to keep AR's. Many folks will continue to limit themselves well after AR disappears, if it would. This generation seems to be more concerned with antler size more than any other time in history. They cant seem to be interested to hunt more than 2 or 3 days of rifle But they like big racks.



I wouldnt be so concerned with that sub legal older buck spreading his genes. He may have a flaw, but its one that rarely can be passed down through genes. But I agree and as said above hunter restraint is important, if you need big bucks, in some areas. Most areas isnt going to matter much.

WHIT---The PA Game Commission has no exact count of the annual deer kill. I don't know who the two people are that you referred to, but they gave you a line. The doe tags WERE dropped down and the time to hunt cut back up here. In a recent Game News, it was stated that 70% of hunters did not report a deer kill. How would they know? Just because the deer kill did not meet their forecast it was wrong? Hunters can not improve on success rates if the deer are not there. I know guys that used to buy a handful (Literally) of tags for the special regs area south of me. Very few ever used two in the same year after the deer were trimmed back the first few years of the "Unlimited" tags. You have the system backwards and the PGC has not worked that way in past years. If one of the 3 days scheduled for doe had severe weather, an extra day was allotted to bring the doe kill up. I remember this being done. To think extra hunting time has no effect on deer kill is ridicules. The first year of the special muzzleloader season was a slaughter. With the time I have off now (Less) and the time I had off 10 years ago, I can see the difference in my deer kill. The first "Bonus,Bonus" tags did not have any real effect on the doe population. When the doe season became concurrent is when the whole system got out of control. My sister lives out near the Gettysburg battlefields. On the way to work in the evening she would see the deer come out in the hundreds. Finally the FEDS brought in snipers and killed them off because you can not hunt there. Just because you see a lot of deer does not mean there is good hunting in the area. On the other hand, just because you do not see any deer when hunting does not mean there are none. Deer are big animals and leave a lot of sign. If I see sign of deer movement, I am happy enough even if I get nothing. There are now places in PA where deer sign has just plain stopped. I don't care how many deer you see spotting at night or running on neighbors property, if I can not hunt there, they may as well not even be there.

PAHICK-- You put up that post while I was typing. So true about the big deer in PA years ago. I have old Game News from the sixties, and there are photos from "Little deer" counties that have some good sized deer. I think the increase in big racked deer started showing up when Archery was extended past one month. I have heard so many times "I went to bow hunting because I wanted a challenge". The odd thing is that these same guys almost never got a deer, big or small, until they took up bowhunting. What the younger generation does not understand is that the older a deer gets, the harder it is to legally kill it.

Good reading fellas. Thanks all for posting.

My wants/needs are simple. Cut the doe tags back in areas, allow sunday hunting. Family dynamics have changed, mom and dad working is the overwhelming majority. Having sunday as another day to get the kids afield would be a boost to the future of our sport.

I remember the good old days, but would like the AR to stick around with a 4 pt rule statewide. I wouldn't mind an early crack at a horned deer with a flintlock. If crossbows are legal for 6 weeks, why not a 3 day flintlock season. PA and flintlocks are a deep tradition that is unique.

Suppose you want the early flintlock during the nice weather and during the rut?

WTH: Archery gets an month long rut season and crossbows are now legal for everyone. Might as well let hordes of FL ML go out and have a go for Buck also before rifle. Heck rifle hunting in Pa doesn't have much of a tradition.

And I would bet the majority posting on this thread-happy or unhappy with the system-are CF rifle hunters.

Said it before: You want to hunt with a bow, then pick rifle or bow, but not both. You want to ML hunt for Bucks, fine with me. Do it during the two weeks of Buck season.

I wont comment on how seasons before rut should go other than to say, we're killing too many before the rut. Our GC underestimates the efficiency of archers and their harvest numbers, no matter the season, are so far off its pathetic, IMO. Increased predation, not only during fawning season, renders their current model moot. Big changes are in order. Bad part of it all, they brag about being the nations leader in deer management and other states are actually following our footsteps. Plain crazy. Fortunately we have some fine folks at Purdue who undertook a 100 yr study on Eastern Hardwood Ecosystem. Unfortunately its a 100 yr deal. In the mean time we'll continue to have biologists guessing why oaks arent regenerating faster, or at all, and coming to the conclusion its all the deers fault. Hence continued low densities, and actual further reductions in some WMU's. Again, crazy!

Now, reason I quit hunting archery was twofold. I absolutely love hunting in the snow. Nothing like it. 2nd, tradition. As I said before, family is everything to me. When you have 12 guys or so that routinely hunt together, and all of a sudden, one two three what have you, harvest in archery, rifle just isnt the same. When I started to get proficient early in the season, I sat out the rest of the year. I missed out all those years on my favorite time of the year with family and friends. Its a very personal decision for me and I really cant explain how important the 3 weeks of bear and deer mean to me. Theres other reasons, much smaller, like actually enjoying early fall and scouting. That all leads up to the big climax in December that I love so much.

Understanding how important rifle is to me, I must realize how important early season is for other families who've made the switch to archery only years ago, or those who prefer to dabble in a little of every season. So more opportunity is a good thing in my book, though sundays are a no no IMO and to keep the thread civil I wont expand on that aspect. But the early season needs to be carefully looked at. Its my opinion that, in some areas, its having a detrimental impact on deer numbers. Getting everyone on the same page is never going to happen though. We have the old cloth battling the newer generation, a generation that IMO is filled with greed. The only conservation they know is QDMA standards as magazines and hunting shows schitcanned true conservation efforts that pertained to big hunting states in favor of shows based on highly commercialized areas such as Illinois and Iowa.

Sorry im rambling a bit. I just see a lot of negative with future wants and needs of the nex gen hunters. Carry on.