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Originally Posted by Charlie_Sisk
Some redneck several years ago said something like "load partitions, shut up and go hunting". Wouldn't know about that myself.
Charlie


I agree Charlie.

With bullet selection, as in most things in life, moderation is often the best policy.

Not too quick opening, which occasionally fails to penetrate. Not too deep penetrating, with may fail to open. Sleek enough to reach out just fine to distances further than any hunter has any business shooting at unwounded game. A nice balance. In other words, a Partition.

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Originally Posted by prairie_goat
Originally Posted by Charlie_Sisk
Some redneck several years ago said something like "load partitions, shut up and go hunting". Wouldn't know about that myself.
Charlie


I agree Charlie.

With bullet selection, as in most things in life, moderation is often the best policy.

Not too quick opening, which occasionally fails to penetrate. Not too deep penetrating, with may fail to open. Sleek enough to reach out just fine to distances further than any hunter has any business shooting at unwounded game. A nice balance. In other words, a Partition.


What I find starkly contrasting today is that we used to judge game bullets by how they performed after the hit animals...today bullet construction is largely ignored and the focus is on how they perform flying through the air,which I can understand for very LR work.

This gives some good information but makes me wonder how I killed anything using Partitions the last 40+ years....Mmmm.

In any event the LR bullets have a very long way to go before they can begin to approach the world wide reputation for trophy game killing of the Partition....I bet they never catch up.




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Great stuff BC30cal. Thanks for making the efforts to post pictures. Reminds me of once, not on a hunt, on the edge of a fault block mountain, having a California ram, then on the next break a mule deer buck and off in the background an antelope buck in the binocular view at once. Was much younger then too. In SE Oregon, I've seen sheep spook at what seemed a mile and other times mill around and watch me at 100 yards. I think when they're headed for water they're less likely to flee for the next mountain, or at least more willing to wait a bit and see what you're up to. I don't think the full-curl rams are nearly as cooperative as the little guys where hunted annually. And they'll be wayyy out away from the cliffs too. Mostly been around them in the spring and summer. Not always a long range gig is evidenced by ancient rock blinds, but those folks had less distractions from hunting, liberal seasons, and simpler choices, obsidian tipped arrow vs lance, atalatl or not, lol.

Maybe a LRAB would be a good all-around option, not a brick yet a bonafide hunting bullet?
Originally Posted by BC30cal

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
path,

You'll have to be more specific. Ranges, animals, and cartridges/bullets vary. It doesn't make much sense for me to type and post a big list. What observations are you getting at here?


Maybe four that stand out. I'm more curious where you found BC to be really important. My "long range" shots on game are limited to three or four (so I'm looking to learn) but in all cases I found BC to be relatively unimportant. Case in point the longest was with a 270 Win at just over 560 yds with a 130 TSX. Not exactly a slippery bullet.


A few instances come to mind, but before I go into detail it's important to point out that any shot taken on game should come only after we've practiced so exhaustively that we will make our shot 9-10 times out of 10, regardless of the cartridge/bullet combo we're using. Having said that, high-BC/velocity combos take less work, practice, and skill to use effectively with, say, a 90% confidence interval. With a bullet that is blown off of the vital zone by a 3 mph wind change, let's just say it takes 2000 rounds of practice shooting in variable winds to be able to call the correction with 90% certainty to within 3 mph. With a higher BC bullet and more speed, maybe it takes a 6 mph wind change to have the same effect. So maybe you can learn to call wind within 6 mph with only 600 rounds of practice at the distance in question.

Having said that, I shot a sheep in the mountains where wind is very difficult to detect as it blows between outcroppings. The shot was at 415 yards and I was using a .25-06 at 100gr MK. I was able to successfully call the wind well enough that 2 shots hit right behind the shoulder. I also shot a coyote at 942 yards using the same bullet, and both of those shots were the result of sending lots and lots of 100 MK downrange, and relatively little wind. If there had been much wind for either of those shots, I would have wished I had a more aerodynamic bullet.

Recently a friend and I were hunting elk in terrain that is also difficult to judge wind in, due to minimal vegetation, and topographical features are the primary source of wind indication. A couple of shots were made with a 7WSM and 162AM that could have turned out badly if I were using something less wind-impervious. The first was at 532 meters and was taken on a cow that was quartering away steeply. The bullet went were I wanted it to go. A minute later my friend fired a 208 AM at another cow in the herd, and a gust of wind came up right at the shot. The bullet entered the liver. As we approached the elk to finish it, she detected us from over 750 meters, then got up and started to run away. A 162 AM hit her in the rear quarters, exiting behind the offside shoulder. There was a significant amount of wind and combined with the lead required to hit her on the run, I was glad to be using the 162 instead of a bullet that may have been blown 6" off course by the wind. Likewise, if a gust of wind had kicked up during the shot on the first cow, the bullet may still have stayed on course, when a lesser bullet may have resulted in a wounding shot.

There have been several others using other chamberings and bullets, and in each case I had to consider the distance of the shot, the shot presentation of the animal, the wind behaviour, as well as the bullet I was shooting and the amount of practice I had done previously with that bullet. If the wind was too much for a given bullet, I had to call it a no shot as where I may have taken the shot with a more resilient bullet. The only way to see how badly a bullet is affected by the wind is to do a lot of shooting at targets in various winds. I can tell you that I would be confident shooting in worse winds using that 7WSM/162AM combo than I would a .308/150SP combo.

I'm not advocating that BC is THE only factor to consider in bullet selection, as I am also a big TTSX user, but when we're talking about shots in the wind beyond 400 yards, BC starts to give a marked advantage. That is easy to see if you take a few chamberings/bullets out on a windy day and compare them on steel side-by-side.


I'm sorry, but some of this stuff is pretty hard to swallow.

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Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
path,

You'll have to be more specific. Ranges, animals, and cartridges/bullets vary. It doesn't make much sense for me to type and post a big list. What observations are you getting at here?


Maybe four that stand out. I'm more curious where you found BC to be really important. My "long range" shots on game are limited to three or four (so I'm looking to learn) but in all cases I found BC to be relatively unimportant. Case in point the longest was with a 270 Win at just over 560 yds with a 130 TSX. Not exactly a slippery bullet.


A few instances come to mind, but before I go into detail it's important to point out that any shot taken on game should come only after we've practiced so exhaustively that we will make our shot 9-10 times out of 10, regardless of the cartridge/bullet combo we're using. Having said that, high-BC/velocity combos take less work, practice, and skill to use effectively with, say, a 90% confidence interval. With a bullet that is blown off of the vital zone by a 3 mph wind change, let's just say it takes 2000 rounds of practice shooting in variable winds to be able to call the correction with 90% certainty to within 3 mph. With a higher BC bullet and more speed, maybe it takes a 6 mph wind change to have the same effect. So maybe you can learn to call wind within 6 mph with only 600 rounds of practice at the distance in question.

Having said that, I shot a sheep in the mountains where wind is very difficult to detect as it blows between outcroppings. The shot was at 415 yards and I was using a .25-06 at 100gr MK. I was able to successfully call the wind well enough that 2 shots hit right behind the shoulder. I also shot a coyote at 942 yards using the same bullet, and both of those shots were the result of sending lots and lots of 100 MK downrange, and relatively little wind. If there had been much wind for either of those shots, I would have wished I had a more aerodynamic bullet.

Recently a friend and I were hunting elk in terrain that is also difficult to judge wind in, due to minimal vegetation, and topographical features are the primary source of wind indication. A couple of shots were made with a 7WSM and 162AM that could have turned out badly if I were using something less wind-impervious. The first was at 532 meters and was taken on a cow that was quartering away steeply. The bullet went were I wanted it to go. A minute later my friend fired a 208 AM at another cow in the herd, and a gust of wind came up right at the shot. The bullet entered the liver. As we approached the elk to finish it, she detected us from over 750 meters, then got up and started to run away. A 162 AM hit her in the rear quarters, exiting behind the offside shoulder. There was a significant amount of wind and combined with the lead required to hit her on the run, I was glad to be using the 162 instead of a bullet that may have been blown 6" off course by the wind. Likewise, if a gust of wind had kicked up during the shot on the first cow, the bullet may still have stayed on course, when a lesser bullet may have resulted in a wounding shot.

There have been several others using other chamberings and bullets, and in each case I had to consider the distance of the shot, the shot presentation of the animal, the wind behaviour, as well as the bullet I was shooting and the amount of practice I had done previously with that bullet. If the wind was too much for a given bullet, I had to call it a no shot as where I may have taken the shot with a more resilient bullet. The only way to see how badly a bullet is affected by the wind is to do a lot of shooting at targets in various winds. I can tell you that I would be confident shooting in worse winds using that 7WSM/162AM combo than I would a .308/150SP combo.

I'm not advocating that BC is THE only factor to consider in bullet selection, as I am also a big TTSX user, but when we're talking about shots in the wind beyond 400 yards, BC starts to give a marked advantage. That is easy to see if you take a few chamberings/bullets out on a windy day and compare them on steel side-by-side.


I'm sorry, but some of this stuff is pretty hard to swallow.


That's a first for you.


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Originally Posted by BC30cal

In looking at Brad's elk photos, I get the impression his elk hunting spots wouldn't be too, too different from where we'd chase rams.


Hi Dwayne, Merry Christmas my friend.

That bull was shot fairly high up in the mountains in a tiny meadow surrounded by dense fir, so it would be quite different from the country in your pics.

Love your post and photos. We see the same thing here depending on the month. Like John, I'm still waiting to draw a tag!

Here's a couple rams I snapped a picture of within 50 feet... post breeding, in the hungry time of year:

[Linked Image]

Part of a group of 30 or so in the summer highcountry:

[Linked Image]

Walking up on a group in September:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Here's a ram I found... it had been run by wolves into a barbwire fence, and torn itself open. It lived less than 24hrs. I called FWP and they came in on snowmachine and hauled the body out for autopsy. Montana takes its sheep pretty seriously!

[Linked Image]


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Brad;
It's nice to see you posting again sir, hopefully you and yours are doing acceptably well this last Sunday before Christmas.

Thanks for sharing your very crisp photos too, I very much enjoyed them.

For sure the photos I put up were not where we hunted rams back in the '90's though. In going through what I've got on photobucket, this is much closer to what we'd have been in.
[Linked Image]

We'd see ewes and banana rams in the open side hills adjacent to the thicker old growth sometimes - like this sort of country.
[Linked Image]

But once they'd made it through a hunting season or two in a bachelor herd they'd be hanging out more on the side with the power line cut up until the rut would pull them back into view.

Anyway thanks again for the photos, congratulations on that buster bull elk and Merry Christmas to you folks Brad.

Dwayne


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Brad the first pic is a real classic. Congrats on another dandy bull and thanks for sharing the pics.

Dwayne thanks for sharing your pics too. Very nice.

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Royce
I'm in agreement !!!!
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The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
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Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
path,

You'll have to be more specific. Ranges, animals, and cartridges/bullets vary. It doesn't make much sense for me to type and post a big list. What observations are you getting at here?


Maybe four that stand out. I'm more curious where you found BC to be really important. My "long range" shots on game are limited to three or four (so I'm looking to learn) but in all cases I found BC to be relatively unimportant. Case in point the longest was with a 270 Win at just over 560 yds with a 130 TSX. Not exactly a slippery bullet.


A few instances come to mind, but before I go into detail it's important to point out that any shot taken on game should come only after we've practiced so exhaustively that we will make our shot 9-10 times out of 10, regardless of the cartridge/bullet combo we're using. Having said that, high-BC/velocity combos take less work, practice, and skill to use effectively with, say, a 90% confidence interval. With a bullet that is blown off of the vital zone by a 3 mph wind change, let's just say it takes 2000 rounds of practice shooting in variable winds to be able to call the correction with 90% certainty to within 3 mph. With a higher BC bullet and more speed, maybe it takes a 6 mph wind change to have the same effect. So maybe you can learn to call wind within 6 mph with only 600 rounds of practice at the distance in question.

Having said that, I shot a sheep in the mountains where wind is very difficult to detect as it blows between outcroppings. The shot was at 415 yards and I was using a .25-06 at 100gr MK. I was able to successfully call the wind well enough that 2 shots hit right behind the shoulder. I also shot a coyote at 942 yards using the same bullet, and both of those shots were the result of sending lots and lots of 100 MK downrange, and relatively little wind. If there had been much wind for either of those shots, I would have wished I had a more aerodynamic bullet.

Recently a friend and I were hunting elk in terrain that is also difficult to judge wind in, due to minimal vegetation, and topographical features are the primary source of wind indication. A couple of shots were made with a 7WSM and 162AM that could have turned out badly if I were using something less wind-impervious. The first was at 532 meters and was taken on a cow that was quartering away steeply. The bullet went were I wanted it to go. A minute later my friend fired a 208 AM at another cow in the herd, and a gust of wind came up right at the shot. The bullet entered the liver. As we approached the elk to finish it, she detected us from over 750 meters, then got up and started to run away. A 162 AM hit her in the rear quarters, exiting behind the offside shoulder. There was a significant amount of wind and combined with the lead required to hit her on the run, I was glad to be using the 162 instead of a bullet that may have been blown 6" off course by the wind. Likewise, if a gust of wind had kicked up during the shot on the first cow, the bullet may still have stayed on course, when a lesser bullet may have resulted in a wounding shot.

There have been several others using other chamberings and bullets, and in each case I had to consider the distance of the shot, the shot presentation of the animal, the wind behaviour, as well as the bullet I was shooting and the amount of practice I had done previously with that bullet. If the wind was too much for a given bullet, I had to call it a no shot as where I may have taken the shot with a more resilient bullet. The only way to see how badly a bullet is affected by the wind is to do a lot of shooting at targets in various winds. I can tell you that I would be confident shooting in worse winds using that 7WSM/162AM combo than I would a .308/150SP combo.

I'm not advocating that BC is THE only factor to consider in bullet selection, as I am also a big TTSX user, but when we're talking about shots in the wind beyond 400 yards, BC starts to give a marked advantage. That is easy to see if you take a few chamberings/bullets out on a windy day and compare them on steel side-by-side.


I'm sorry, but some of this stuff is pretty hard to swallow.


In his GAP .260 vs .308 thread, Pat's results illustrate what I'm describing. He made a 1 Mil wind call with both rifles, and the .260 gave him a bit more margin of error. The .308 was blown off course, and needed another 0.2 Mil to hit POA. He was shooting at 570 meters, which is farther than we're talking about in this thread, but he was also shooting in only a 10 mph wind. Results would likely be similar if it were 200 yards closer and 5 mph more wind.Here's his post:

Originally Posted by scenarshooter
[Linked Image]

"Wolfie", ready for another workout. The wind was out of the southeast at 10mph, with a temp of 66*F. Good conditions to test these rifles.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I shot the .308 first. I wanted 10 shots from each rifle. I held off exactly one MIL for drift. 1.2 would have been better. I finished the group even though I saw it was somewhat right.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Next up was the .260. I held one MIL for drift as well and that was perfect. Kind of expected with a bullet of higher velocity and BC....

I finished with one attempt at a head shot with each rifle, and one shot behind the shoulder from the same distance, after re-painting Wolfie.

[Linked Image]
[img]http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/riflestest015.jpg[/img]

Throat shot with the .308 and the .260 shot clean on both hits.....they both hit perfect on the lung shot.

One thing that was evident, was the deeper impressions with the .260 left on the 3/8 mild steel. They were dug in quite a bit farther.

[img]http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/riflestest016.jpg[/img]

Both rifles leave a pretty good mark at 623 yards...

I shot both rifles rapid fire, without letting them cool. I never really saw any real POI changes while I was shooting because of it. My opinion is, a good barrel that is bedded right will shoot well, hot or cold.

Both rifles zero range is 180 meters(elevation turret zero). The .260 had in 2.9 MILS elevation, the .308 had 3.4. Drift was .2 MILS less with 130gr VLD than the 155gr scenar(at 570M).


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Jordan,

That's very illustrative of the differences in two bullets in different cartridges.

But it's also not what we're talking about, because there isn't NEARLY that much difference in wind drift between a 160 Partition and, say, a 168 JLK (which in an earlier post you suggested would be a fairer comparison than a 180 Berger) in the 7mm Remington Magnum.

I ran the number for the two bullets you suggest through Berger's ballistic program, using actual BC data from Bryan Litz's latest book, BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE OF RIFLE BULLETS, an almost 500-page book of the results of his actual range tests of the BC's of various bullets. One of the interesting things about Bryan's tests is how often the listed BC's of various LR bullets are higher than reality, partly because many companies (especially smaller companies) only list a best-case scenario. Well, it turns out the 168 JLK is one of those bullets, and it actually drifts only about 2" less in a 10-mph sidewind at 500 yards than a 160 Partition.

So no, somebody using the same wind hold with both bullets wouldn't hit a wolf in the butt with one and in the chest with the other. Plus, I would hope that anybody who's preparing for a possible 500-yard shot on a bighorn ram will have been practicing with the bullet and load they'll be using, so can make a decent wind hold with that load.

As I stated earlier in this thread, BC doesn't make nearly as much difference as many people think at ranges out to 500 yards, given spitzer bullets. I didn't get this information just from running the numbers through ballistic programs, but because astonishingly enough, I do a lot of longer-range shooting throughout the year. This is partly because i have to test a lot of rifles and loads, but also because I can shoot at anywhere up to mile on some public land only 10 minutes from my house. I don't often shoot at a mile, but often do at 600-1000.

So many shooters are fixated on high BC these days they often forget there are two bullets factors in wind drift, BC and velocity. A couple of local friends who decided to start playing with longer-range shooting were out practicing at 500 yards this summer, up in the local mountains. One was shooting his new .300 magnum with 200-grain AccuBonds at 2900 fps, and the other the .270 Weatherby Magnum he's used to kill a pile of pronghorn, mule deer and elk over the past decade, with 130-grain Partitions at 3500 fps.

After the reading they'd recently done, they assumed the .300 magnum's bullets would drift far less than the .270 Weatherby's. Instead, they were astonished to find that in the same conditions, there wasn't any practical difference, since for practical purposes the bullets all drifted about the same amount, close enough together for killing big game at 500 yards.

Neither one of them had ever used a ballistic program, so I showed them one on the Internet, which showed them the results they got weren't an anomaly, since there was only about 2 inches difference in wind drift.

Now, if either one of them wants to shoot beyond 500 yards, the .300 would definitely have an advantage. But they don't, partly because they saw how many weird things wind does to bullets at 500 yards.



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John, Jordan,

I have an example that shows the difference in drift well, but due to vastly different BC (from a 7-08 not a 7RM).

*** With 10 mph full value wind, 1700' elevation, 7mm-08 ***

--- 24" drift with 120gr TTSX, 0.373 G1, 3000 fps ---

--- 16" drift with 162gr AMAX, 0.600 G1, 2600 fps ---

While the 162 AMAX was offline, I was shooting the 120 NBT and 120 TTSX. Once the 162 became available again I started shooting them at 2600 fps.

In a 7RM, I doubt anyone would choose two bullets with such vastly different BC so this is sort of a cherry-picked example. Figure most bullets used in the 7RM are going to be 0.450 G1 or better. These will still do well out to 500y even compared to slicker bullets.

But, its a real example for me with the little 7-08 where the higher BC does come into play. I haven't shot the 162 nearly as much as the 120, but so far I've noticed a higher rate of hits with the 162 at 500y than I ever did with the 120. My 500y target is an 8" hub coupler. Even with 5 mph wind, that is still 4" more drift with the 120 vs the 162. Or 1/2 the size of the target.

I haven't killed any critters with the 162, but per some sources when the 162 is started at 2600-2700 fps it rarely blows up. And still opens nicely at longer distances while giving good penetration at closer ranges. Hope to see this first-hand.

As I get older I am more interested in getting the least drift with the lowest recoil so I can shoot more. Practicing with magnums at 500y doesn't sounds like much fun to me anymore and I used to shoot the 200 NAB at 2900 fps out of a few 300 Mags. That sucked from prone.

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I have no experience with them, but know others shoot the 140gr NAB from the 7-08 at ~2800fps. This drifts ~19" at 500y... only ~3" more than the 162 in the example above. The 140 NAB has a 0.485 G1.

So given two "comparable" spitzers without a huge disparity in BC, they will perform similarly in terms of wind drift given mild/moderate wind values. As wind increases the higher BC bullet advantages will be even more apparent and could make a difference in shot placement but I don't think anyone is advocating shooting game under such conditions.

Its still worth exploring the options though. I know the 120gr is a favorite on the 'Fire for the little 7-08, but a higher BC bullet might be worth a look.

7RM and 160gr NAB would seem like a good option for those who like the NPT. The NAB would offer slightly better BC with comparable terminal ballistics, or so I've heard.

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I would hope not.


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Only time I hear of Hail Mary shots in the wind are during antelope hunts. From guys who think longrange is unethicalcrazy

Never gone antelope hunting myself. I'd be spooked by that level of wind.

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It can be pretty fierce at times. On the other hand, it's often more consistent than in the mountains. An experienced prairie dog shooter won't have much trouble with "average" winds.

Have also seen it dead calm, plenty of times, when pronghorn hunting, especially early and late in the day when pronghorns themselves tend to be calmer.


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I love those times in the morning and evening when the sun is low and the wind is absent.

You reminded me of the last time I drove I-90 thru North Dakota and Minnesota. Wind was really strong and required a lot of correction with the steering wheel. But it was constant... for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles grin It seemed like we drove for hours with the wheel cranked over hard to the same spot.

That hot wind was so bad my dog didn't want to get out of the air conditioning at rest stops!

Seen the same thing riding motorcyles in OR where there are antelope. Bike cranked over hard for extended periods of time. Until the slipstream from an oncoming rig draws you off course, then spits you out into the wind again.


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John how would the LR Accubond's fair against Partitions in the examples you cited above. They are supposed to high significantly higher BC's and then the standard Accubond and those are no slouch.

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Given the difficulty I have seen of most people trying to hit things past 300 yards, I wonder how many people there are that are capable of making consistent first shot hits in the vitals, past 400 yards when there is a wind significant enough so that a hold off the vitals of a deer sized animal is necessary.
There are a handful of people on here that I would bet can do it, but a dam small handful.

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Originally Posted by Royce
Given the difficulty I have seen of most people trying to hit things past 300 yards, I wonder how many people there are that are capable of making consistent first shot hits in the vitals, past 400 yards when there is a wind significant enough so that a hold off the vitals of a deer sized animal is necessary.
There are a handful of people on here that I would bet can do it, but a dam small handful.



That makes two of us. The more the wind blows, swirls, gusts, and varies, the smaller that handful becomes, even if your name is David Tubb. The idiots on the LR hunting TV shows don't help things much.


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