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Warning: This thread is picture heavy.

After reading the 'Montana Project', I took my troubled 223 to the range for similar testing. I call the rifle 'troubled' because I've yet to find a load it likes. The gun won't group.

I've filled this thread with pictures of groups, and of the rifle taken apart. I'm hoping those of you with more experience and age with rifles can help develop a plan for getting this gun to shoot.

To remove any reloading variables, I grabbed two boxes of quality ammo. I've always had good luck with Federals stuff, the Fusions and the higher grade Premium:

[Linked Image]

Lets start with Round 1, snug on the action screws. First up were the Fusions and a 10 shot group. Pitiful with a capital P:

[Linked Image]

Next were the Premium loads, another 10 shot group. I was able to label each shot, as it walked the group two inches left to right as I shot. Interesting how it would touch two, then jump and touch two.

[Linked Image]

After that awesome display of accuracy, I made a change on the action screws from snug to 'oh yeah, thats tight'. The groups changed, but still lack acceptable accuracy from a $1100 rifle.

Round 2 with the Fusions. Much better than Fusion round one, but nothing to tape on the fridge at home:

[Linked Image]

Round 2 with the Premiums that again walked right to left allowing me to number the shots 1-10:

[Linked Image]


The big question in all of this - where to go from here? Agian, groups 1 and 2 were shot with different action screw torque.

I don't doubt the Montana platform, as I have a 84L in 270 that just plain shoots. Lets call it a 'Tikka Montana' because the gun is that accurate with just about every load. But I doubt this gun. Something is not right.





I pulled the rifle apart and took pictures of a variety of things.

First, the follower sucks. Any rear pressure and the SOB pops up. Doesn't cause cycling hiccups, not sure if its the side effect of something else hampering my accuracy:

[Linked Image]

I've taken a dremel to the feet of the mag box and where it likes to dig into the stock. Only mods I've made from the tinkering thread:

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-A98E-6D1FE4759B51_zps7yiy0ryr.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-981B-B818173EC45C_zpscjqyfcvh.jpg[/img]

Bedding: None. I've waited on this, wondering if this one needs a new barrel before I spend the money on bedding. Some looks at the stock:

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-B157-5BB5EFE1CDCC_zpsc5ak7z10.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-A40A-FE987320C4A7_zpsmtqyv8jj.jpg[/img]




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Two other items that caught my eye:

Bottom of the spring was machined by a three year old:

[Linked Image]

Front action screw is catching threads just fine, but appears its doing some rubbing on the stock:

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

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Wow

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Three things say bedding to me. First, it shoots then jumps. Second, it walks. Third, it changes with torque. If it were mine I would bed it before anything else and go from there.
And while you are at it, relieve that front action screw.

Last edited by Blacktailer; 12/22/14.

I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all.
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Is the scope a proven performer? I would switch it out for one that is, to eliminate that variable. Are the front scope bases screws truly tight or are they bottoming out?

I might be tempted to shoot a group with all of the magazine parts (box, spring, follower) out. But I'll bet that you end up bedding it. Before you do that, though, you might consider sending it back to Kimber to make sure there is nothing wrong with the barrel. I suspect that if you bed it, they would regard the warranty voided.

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Scope is a new out of the box Mark AR. It's only been on this gun. I had a VX2 2-7 on it before, didn't shoot then and doesn't shoot now. I'd rule out the scope.

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Might be the barrel, if you have access to someone with a borescope I would have them take a look.
To get an idea of the condition of the bore, poke a Q-tip an inch down the muzzle to reflect light and look down it with a magnifying glass with a strong light behind you.
I've got a 300 win mag that shoots like that and after I looked down the barrel I can see why.
I'm not spending another dime or investing any more time on it. It is what it is and it's "good enough" for big game, but forget about precision.


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Originally Posted by Dooger
Wow


x2. Shotguns pattern better than that.

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Bed it.

Try some different ammo, especially some with lighter bullets. One thing I�ve noticed with Kimbers is that it can be a mistake to try and force them to like a certain bullet. Let the rifle tell you what it likes. Sometimes that takes a little experimenting with different loads.

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I'd follow the instructions in the Montana Tinkering thread.

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Read this two or thirty times....

Big Stick - "Old Meets New"


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Damn. Kimber wants how much for those? shocked


I hope you can find the magic formula to get it to group.

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There are already rub marks starting on the stock. The thing is moving around.

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Quality issues it appears. Try switching the scope,,,even new ones can be bad.

Have someone else (or even two people ) see how it shoots for them.

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Originally Posted by utah708

I might be tempted to shoot a group with all of the magazine parts (box, spring, follower) out. But I'll bet that you end up bedding it. Before you do that, though, you might consider sending it back to Kimber to make sure there is nothing wrong with the barrel. I suspect that if you bed it, they would regard the warranty voided.


You will most definitely void the warranty if you bed it.

Before you do anything to it, send it back to Kimber with some very strong verbalization of the complaints & include some targets.

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Originally Posted by DakotaDeer
There are already rub marks starting on the stock. The thing is moving around.


Yep, I noticed that too. A decent bedding job will surely benefit that rifle.


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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by utah708

I might be tempted to shoot a group with all of the magazine parts (box, spring, follower) out. But I'll bet that you end up bedding it. Before you do that, though, you might consider sending it back to Kimber to make sure there is nothing wrong with the barrel. I suspect that if you bed it, they would regard the warranty voided.


You will most definitely void the warranty if you bed it.

Before you do anything to it, send it back to Kimber with some very strong verbalization of the complaints & include some targets.

MM


Probably good advice if you are concerned about the warranty. I always fix the stuff myself, but that is just me. Replacing a barrel on a >1K rifle should not have to be a concern, but I know it happens. Seems as though the Kimber quality gamble continues.


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Originally Posted by SmokeEater2
Damn. Kimber wants how much for those? shocked


I hope you can find the magic formula to get it to group.


If you want to make the assumption that the barrel is good, it's likely nothing that can't be fixed with correct bedding & finding what it likes for barrel pressure or lack thereof.

Anyone who's had a lot of rifles will likely have worked though the same scenario more that one.

Ammo can still play a role as well.

Had a new 1st Gen Ti 7-08 that was so badly fitted that I could literally watch the barrel bend when it was screwed together...........fixed it right & it's now a 1/2" rifle.

Just a question of asking Kimber to live up to their responsibility to deliver a decent shooting gun or doing it yourself.

Unless you want to give up on it & just flog it............

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I think we can rule out the scope, since it has shot equally badly with 2 quality scopes.

If this gun shot sorta ok, I would take the leap and bed it. It does look like that would help some. But it shoots SO poorly that I fear there may be a significant flaw in the barreled action. I would want to have Kimber rule that out before I take the step of bedding it, and in so doing give Kimber a free pass on fixing a problem because I have voided the warranty.

My completely unscientific view of bedding is that it typically cuts the group size by about a third. Sometimes it cuts the group size in half, but that is not common. But this gun appears to be shooting 4" groups. Reducing them by even half is not enough to make this gun a keeper, IMHO.

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