Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles My Montana Project and results: A sick rifle

Warning: This thread is picture heavy.

After reading the 'Montana Project', I took my troubled 223 to the range for similar testing. I call the rifle 'troubled' because I've yet to find a load it likes. The gun won't group.

I've filled this thread with pictures of groups, and of the rifle taken apart. I'm hoping those of you with more experience and age with rifles can help develop a plan for getting this gun to shoot.

To remove any reloading variables, I grabbed two boxes of quality ammo. I've always had good luck with Federals stuff, the Fusions and the higher grade Premium:



Lets start with Round 1, snug on the action screws. First up were the Fusions and a 10 shot group. Pitiful with a capital P:



Next were the Premium loads, another 10 shot group. I was able to label each shot, as it walked the group two inches left to right as I shot. Interesting how it would touch two, then jump and touch two.



After that awesome display of accuracy, I made a change on the action screws from snug to 'oh yeah, thats tight'. The groups changed, but still lack acceptable accuracy from a $1100 rifle.

Round 2 with the Fusions. Much better than Fusion round one, but nothing to tape on the fridge at home:



Round 2 with the Premiums that again walked right to left allowing me to number the shots 1-10:




The big question in all of this - where to go from here? Agian, groups 1 and 2 were shot with different action screw torque.

I don't doubt the Montana platform, as I have a 84L in 270 that just plain shoots. Lets call it a 'Tikka Montana' because the gun is that accurate with just about every load. But I doubt this gun. Something is not right.





I pulled the rifle apart and took pictures of a variety of things.

First, the follower sucks. Any rear pressure and the SOB pops up. Doesn't cause cycling hiccups, not sure if its the side effect of something else hampering my accuracy:



I've taken a dremel to the feet of the mag box and where it likes to dig into the stock. Only mods I've made from the tinkering thread:

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-A98E-6D1FE4759B51_zps7yiy0ryr.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-981B-B818173EC45C_zpscjqyfcvh.jpg[/img]

Bedding: None. I've waited on this, wondering if this one needs a new barrel before I spend the money on bedding. Some looks at the stock:

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-B157-5BB5EFE1CDCC_zpsc5ak7z10.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i1104.photobucket.com/a...-A40A-FE987320C4A7_zpsmtqyv8jj.jpg[/img]

Two other items that caught my eye:

Bottom of the spring was machined by a three year old:



Front action screw is catching threads just fine, but appears its doing some rubbing on the stock:

Wow

Three things say bedding to me. First, it shoots then jumps. Second, it walks. Third, it changes with torque. If it were mine I would bed it before anything else and go from there.
And while you are at it, relieve that front action screw.

Is the scope a proven performer? I would switch it out for one that is, to eliminate that variable. Are the front scope bases screws truly tight or are they bottoming out?

I might be tempted to shoot a group with all of the magazine parts (box, spring, follower) out. But I'll bet that you end up bedding it. Before you do that, though, you might consider sending it back to Kimber to make sure there is nothing wrong with the barrel. I suspect that if you bed it, they would regard the warranty voided.

Tag

Scope is a new out of the box Mark AR. It's only been on this gun. I had a VX2 2-7 on it before, didn't shoot then and doesn't shoot now. I'd rule out the scope.

Might be the barrel, if you have access to someone with a borescope I would have them take a look.
To get an idea of the condition of the bore, poke a Q-tip an inch down the muzzle to reflect light and look down it with a magnifying glass with a strong light behind you.
I've got a 300 win mag that shoots like that and after I looked down the barrel I can see why.
I'm not spending another dime or investing any more time on it. It is what it is and it's "good enough" for big game, but forget about precision.

x2. Shotguns pattern better than that.

Bed it.

Try some different ammo, especially some with lighter bullets. One thing I�ve noticed with Kimbers is that it can be a mistake to try and force them to like a certain bullet. Let the rifle tell you what it likes. Sometimes that takes a little experimenting with different loads.

I'd follow the instructions in the Montana Tinkering thread.

Read this two or thirty times....

Big Stick - "Old Meets New"

Damn. Kimber wants how much for those?


I hope you can find the magic formula to get it to group.

There are already rub marks starting on the stock. The thing is moving around.

Quality issues it appears. Try switching the scope,,,even new ones can be bad.

Have someone else (or even two people ) see how it shoots for them.

You will most definitely void the warranty if you bed it.

Before you do anything to it, send it back to Kimber with some very strong verbalization of the complaints & include some targets.

MM

Yep, I noticed that too. A decent bedding job will surely benefit that rifle.

Probably good advice if you are concerned about the warranty. I always fix the stuff myself, but that is just me. Replacing a barrel on a >1K rifle should not have to be a concern, but I know it happens. Seems as though the Kimber quality gamble continues.

If you want to make the assumption that the barrel is good, it's likely nothing that can't be fixed with correct bedding & finding what it likes for barrel pressure or lack thereof.

Anyone who's had a lot of rifles will likely have worked though the same scenario more that one.

Ammo can still play a role as well.

Had a new 1st Gen Ti 7-08 that was so badly fitted that I could literally watch the barrel bend when it was screwed together...........fixed it right & it's now a 1/2" rifle.

Just a question of asking Kimber to live up to their responsibility to deliver a decent shooting gun or doing it yourself.

Unless you want to give up on it & just flog it............

MM

I think we can rule out the scope, since it has shot equally badly with 2 quality scopes.

If this gun shot sorta ok, I would take the leap and bed it. It does look like that would help some. But it shoots SO poorly that I fear there may be a significant flaw in the barreled action. I would want to have Kimber rule that out before I take the step of bedding it, and in so doing give Kimber a free pass on fixing a problem because I have voided the warranty.

My completely unscientific view of bedding is that it typically cuts the group size by about a third. Sometimes it cuts the group size in half, but that is not common. But this gun appears to be shooting 4" groups. Reducing them by even half is not enough to make this gun a keeper, IMHO.

Any chance the front action screw or scope mount screw is hitting the bolt head? Color it with a sharpie. Hate to sound like BS, but you gotta nip mechanicals because the best ammo is schit otherwise. I went through the ringer with my 6x45. Using the same load all the way through the process and it went from 1" 2 in one out crap to nice 1/2" groups.

Bed it. Try a 55 grain.

I'm split between tinkering myself (my preference) vs sending off to Kimber.

The votes for trying a lighter grain bullet...no thanks. I bought the Kimber because it has the twist to shoot heavies. If I want to shoot 55s, I would have grabbed any 10 or 12 twist out there.

I�m not seeing a rifle in need of rebarreling. If more folks took their new rifles out and put several 10 round groups on target, a whole bunch of them wouldn�t be far off of this. Instead they shoot a couple three shot groups and blame the bad groups on �fliers� or �I pulled one�.

Your rifle will come around.

I would send the rifle back to Kimber, let them figure out
what is wrong.

I'd tinker.

In what order would you proceed?

1) Bed
2) shoot again
3) ?

It sounds like once I do #1, Kimber won't touch it. And if it needs a new barrel...I didn't sign up for a $1000 donor action.

If it makes you feel safer, send it to Kimber and complain about the barrel. They will either deny you or rebarrel it. When you get it back, it will shoot the same either way, because the problem is not the barrel.

It is not bedded properly yet. Did you read the thread above on ARAIG? It will help you understand a lot of what is probably going on. A heavier rifle masks most of these problems; a Kimber will not.

MORE READING

Love him or hate him, Stick knows his way around a Montana, as does Smoker. If you read through that thread you'll see he's running 75's. I've got a 270 WSM that I haven't run one round through yet. Both of those threads are book marked and I ain't worried.

I can understand hesitation with a new rig for sure. Mine was used so that ship sailed.

I suggest an emergency unbanning of Stick so this rig can get underway. Between the two I bet it'll sing.

gosh I like my pre 64 M70's. That said, kimber has surely put out some great shooters as seen by some folks, but that follower....thats the "wow" to me.

Yeah the handiwork on the follower spring is terrible. Trying to read Boxer's stuff and figure out how to mod the mag for longer bullets and to stop the follower hiccups.

Aren't these tips/suggestions , along with proper load development, the same ones you got last time you posted the same topic?????

After reading the 'Montana Project' thread, and having never tried factory ammo, I thought I'd combine the 10-shot group lessons learned with some tinkering - "proper load development".

Posted the results, and looking for some extra help. Having read the Montana tips info, I've followed all suggestions - leaving bedding for last. The question is - do the groups show a rifle that needs beddding?

Yes

Would said bedding make the rifle a shooter? Thats what I'm trying to determine vs sending off to Kimber or just ordering a new barrel and let a gunsmith put it together properly.

Try some 50's to figure out wtf if nothing else. If it shoots them good you know it's not digging the heavies. You're kinda backwards and being stubborn about it ain't gonna give you any clues as to what's up.

1-9" isn't a guarantee it will shoot 75's. My new Montana is 1-9.25" and won't in the cold foggy weather here. Did you check twist with a cleaning rod?

If you haven't bedded a rifle before I sure wouldn't wanna learn on one of these. Pretty sensitive little action. Mine was shooting pretty good but I bedded it and it's gotten worse. I did the best looking bedding job I've ever done too, but I screwed the pooch somewhere. Just my luck I guess.

Haven't bedding a rifle before, and don't plan to try on this one. Will hopefully find a smith willing to give it a go.

Or a 24HCF member who wants to help and willing to put their name on trying to make this rifle right.

It might not shoot 75s, but the Fusions were 62. I'll grab a box of 50 somethings to satisfy that question.

If it shoots only the 50s and nothing else, this rifle will be for sale. I doubt it, as others have the Kimber 223 shooting heavies.

Quite simply at the price of the Kimber you have expectations that it should perform better than that or that they should stand behind it and repair it. Even if it is a bedding issue you would be enabling them to continue producing a poor product if you fix it yourself. As long as folks continue fixing their screw-ups they have no incentive to be sure that they are right when they are shipped. There are so many things wrong with it that it should never have left the shop.

Why buy an $1100 Kimber to have to work on it, if you need a project rifle buy a Walmart $300 Rem 700.

drover

I've never bought an $1100 rifle I didn't have to work on...

but my two Kimbers just took a trigger tweak and done.

Clearly your problem is that you're shooting groups of too many shots. Seriously, there are aplenty pretty 3-shot groups on your targets. Folks should note that.

What I meant was......Please read the Montana project thread.....then read it again......and get back to us.

I think there's a link in one of the early posts in this thread.

Where in TX are you?

Hill Country. Near New Braunfels

What sort of front rest and back bag are you using? Light weight rifles can be a challenge to shoot accurately. Especially if you don't have good bench technique or a decent rest/bag combination. I'm using a Caldwell Rock BR front rest. Stable,adjustable,and affordable. My back bag is a left over from my BR days. An old leather short ear Bald Eagle. I use it in conjunction with a "doughnut" or rear bag stabilizer. It negates the rounded bottom most back bags end up with in time. A mountain weight rig in a squishy rolly polly sandbag up front,and something worse in the back is nothing short of a bitch to group well with. At the very least pick up a bulls bag if you don't have a decent rest and back bag. It will make life a little easier tuning a rifle.

That's some pretty sad performance from an $1100.00 rifle and even more amazing that the "fire" has to have a thread on how to fix them......Kimber needs to get their act together!

I'm a little over a hour away from you. I'll gladly take your rifle in, bed it and work up a load with the 75gr AMaxes, you provide components.

PM if interested....

I would not do anything that would make Kimber possibly not make a repair if in fact it needs it. I have a hard time believing the bedding is a big issue especially on something with as little recoil as a .223. But then again I'd never not bed a rifle. Are both of the lugs touching? The magazine is definitely not binding? I would put some Tubbs Final Finish through it and see what happens.

Darn generous of you.



P

That front action screw rubbing is a red flag - It's not rubbing because the stock is pulled tightly into the action....

Read this:



You need to address the front action screw before worrying about bedding, sending it to Kimber or anything else....

David

Out of curiosity, what should the front action screw measure?

Maybe try Sticks "saddle straddle". I still say the components alone are worth $1,100. You be almost the same money in a McMillan stocked SS ADL and still have an X-Mark trigger.

Good question. I'd prefer to not cut one down, and instead have one the right size. I'll call Kimber and see if they will send me one.

I think the variation will be due to stock/pillar variations more than screw variations. In other words, the same front action screw length that snugs up tight on my rifle might bottom out in yours. Only way to know is to check your rifle.

David

Kimber will send you a screw that is the exact same length as the your current front action screw....

Determine if this is the problem first - Look at SAS's post that I quoted. Can you see similar rub marks on your action? Still not sure? Put some lipstick on the tip of the action screw and tighten it back up - is lipstick on the action?

Cutting a screw back is easy and quick. If this is your problem (the pictures in your initial post indicate that it may be), the improvements will be very noticeable.

David

Seems a great production run!

Chuck that screw in a drill and spin & file til you're happy...

Hey OutdoorAg, if you don't mind me asking, was this rifle recently produced?

1. So the front action screw is bottoming out? How about the front base screw? I think 16B asked these questions but I never saw an answer.

2. Does the action stay in the stock if you turn the works upside down without screws installed?

3. If you put the rear screw in the front, how does it look? The rear screw is long enough to see the alignment. If you push the action rearward, is the screw more or less centered?

4. If the action slides fore-aft in the stock can you slide the action rearward and tighten the action screws (in their normal locations)?

5. Since you don't want to bed the rifle, can you cut some plastic from a bottle and shim behind the lug? Is the screw still centered (see #3)?

6. What is the trigger pull weight?

7. What is the rest set-up while shooting? Solid bench, prone, or ???

8. What's the crown look like? Factory?

9. How were you holding your mouth?

10. What was the moon phase?

11. Before or after lunch?

12. Less filling?

13. Tastes great?

14. You ever been in a Turkish prison?

If you want what a Montana offers, you gotta pay the price.

If you don't, a WalMart Remmy will work well enough.

Tag

Replacing the barrel should be way down the list. This rifle has a bedding problem. Take the advice given concerning the action screws as step one. Step two will be glass (epoxy) bedding. If that doesn't work, sell it.

If the above doesn't do it, I would run some tubs Final Finish bullets through it. If that didn't make it shoot then I would consider selling but this rifle WILL shoot once you determine what is ailing it. Sometimes they just take a bit of fiddling.

I agree. I doubt it is the barrel. Not sure how many rounds have been placed downrange, but sometimes it takes a while for newer barrels to shoot. My opinion is that this is a bedding problem, along with that front action screw needing to be shortened (which is a bedding problem).

My 300 wsm Montana is shooting right at 1/2" now for three shots @100 yds. I drilled out the front guard screw hole(pillar) the next drill diameter larger on mine. Guard screws should not make contact with the stock except at the head. Also check your bolt lug contact, I had to lap in my lugs on this one and a 338 Federal, only one lug on each rifle was contacting the reciever. My guard screws are super tight also.
These are really nice rifles when their shooting well.

I'm not through tuning my 7mm-08 Montana, and just picked up a Classic Select in .257 Roberts. I appreciate all the shared wisdom here on the Campfire.

I collect Ruger Number Ones - that have interesting reputations of their own, as far as accuracy. In a way, I suspect Kimbers are sorta like #1's. You have to hold your mouth just right, or adjust the bedding tighter, or looser, or float the barrel, or not, or a tighter hold, or looser, or lighter bullets, or heavier, or...or...etc, etc

But I have a suspicion Kimbers may be like #1's - just get a good barrel and they suddenly become a lot less fussy.

Trash.
Wouldn't sell them without full page color ads in the back of rifle magazines.
Best said by W.W. Greener in his classic book The Gun and its Development (1910 edition).
"In no country are better sportsmen to be found than in the United States of America, nor does any country posses keener buyers or better men of business, yet in no country is so much worthless rubbish of the (mass production) gun-factories offered for sale. The Boers are a race of sportsmen, but it is of no use to offer them rubbish at any price, and the author can hardly believe that the astute American will sacrifice everything to cheapness".

If it is a bad barrel best of luck with Kimber replacing it. Been down that road.

Me too. Got a brand new .223 Montana in exchange for a 7mm-08 I purchased second hand.

You definitely got better service than me. The chamber on my 257 Roberts was cut so bad the brass came out shaped like an octagon. Sent it to Kimber they sent it back saying it was within spec.

[img:center][/img]

Laughin' here..........I don't think Kimber is alone in their definition of various things being "in spec".

MM

I would send it to Kimber and tell them to shoot it .

I agree, when you pay well over $1,200. for a rifle, that
should get you one that shoots well. Those are serious
dollars, and place them in custom range.

Show me a $1,200 custom....

I'd have sent the barrel back to them after my smith removed it and told them to stick it up their azz. No excuse for that.

Before ordering a new screw, can you try adding a washer as a spacer?

I do know $1,200 will get you a rifle that shoots better
than the targets from the post #1, above.

The Weatherby Vanguard S2 guarantees SUB-MOA out of the box.
That means .99" at 100 yds.
Mine in 25-06 does that very well. For under $500.

It seems the Kimber here does not do that.

That is why he should send it back.

You need to look around more....and not be in a hurry. I've acquired mine second-hand for $850 to $900. Most with Talley Ltwt's included. ALL of them shoot. And even Remington is not far from getting into that territory.

5-1/3 lbs versus 7-1/4 lbs. Not apples to apples.

Stainless versus blued. Not apples to apples.

Kevlar carbon fiber stock versus POS tupperware stock. Definitely not apples to apples.

Filing the original screw is easy and takes maybe 5 minutes. Or use a Dremel w/cutoff wheel and finish it off with a file......even faster.

Montana 257 bought second-hand with NO tweaking. That's about .2" group. I have got to be the luckiest SOB on the planet. I still have this one!

That ain't custom and MOA ain't 1" at 100 yards.

Then he can't send it back.

You mean to tell me you can't buy a replacement front action screw from Kimber?

ETA: Per the 84M manual, a new front action screw could be ordered.

Has the OP confirmed that the screw is too long and bottoming out?

No idea.

257:

Go back to post #1, look at the targets.
All of us like to have our rifles shoot with accuracy.

You are right, there is a rotten apple in this one. In this
case it seems to be a Kimber. The expectations are set higher
with rifles in this range.

That is why I have recommended him to send it back.

Wanna sell it??? Lol

Well.....according to farmboy, it's worth $1200!!!

errrrr......I mean "well over $1200"!!!!

Nosler 48 Patriot 7mm08. Mine is a tack-driving son of a gun.

Nosler Patriot 6.5x284, mines a nail driver.

Custom means you pick the stock, barrel/contour/length, action, caliber, trigger, yada, yada.

Like ordering a pizza....

What does it weigh?

6.75 lbs without rings and scope. It wears a 3.5-10x40 VX3, Leupy dd bases, and burris signature rings.

I personally do not have the patience to fart around with anything Kimber, and out of the 100+ hunters that have showed up in our camps, I've never seen one Kimber. Right or wrong, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Why take a Kimber to TX? Kimners are mountain rifles, not sit-at-the-feeder rifles.

Awwww. That ruined my Christmas. I won't be able to sleep tonight....maybe for a week.

Merry Christmas! and GFY!!

Not sure if you're trying to be funny, just a smartazzz, or plain ignorant? For the record, our hunts are free range W TX aoudad, mule deer, antelope in NM, and "no high fence or feeders" whitetails.

Some fellers never hunted Texas... Here's a sweater I'm wearing tonight. Fa la la la LA!