Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Lightening Up my gear..Forbes 20B

My son has convinced me to take him sheep hunting in 2015. Down 15 pounds but 80 pounds to go. Also lightening up my gear. Have rethought everything. Ringing out a Forbes 20B in 308 with a VXII 3-9x40 with CDS. It's working pretty well. Evolved my stove choice from a Svea 123, used when I was last a back-packer; to a Jet boil, to playing with alcohol, and finally settled on an MSR pocket rocket married to an Optimus weekender heat exchanger pot. I am getting unbelievable boil times!

Switched to a tarp with optional bug nest from Bear Paw Designs. Sub three pound three person shelter! Using an old Mighty Mite down bag or my son and I might both take our Woobies and cuddle up. Experimenting with light clothing systems and seeing if moving away from Impertech and Wool is doable. Salewa Repace books fit..took a long time to find such a good fitting boot. Will be doing lots of practice trips to ring out gear and work on fitness. I put my first part thoughts in a video and would invite comment from experienced back-country backpack hunters.

Only thing I Know for sure is that my Dana Designs Astroplane will be coming with me. It's a wonder, and at 7 pounds isn't light but it seems to have an anti-gravity device built into the suspension!

Anyway, advice welcome. I have a lot to learn and a lot of pounds to lose in both my gear and my gut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUiSlhirqSY&list=UUMrvqN2-Jr7OAnV0ceWlkmw

I don't have gear advice but congratulate you on setting your goal and your progress to date. Setting a goal and working towards it is very rewarding. Last year my wife and I decided that after 33 years of marriage we both needed a physical and spiritual challenge. We agreed to walk the ancient pilgrimage in Spain called the Camino Santiago. 800 Km by foot, over three mountain ranges, while carrying everything was a daunting challenge for a couple of non-backpackers. Training and determination, good gear and good attitudes all helped us achieve our goal. We grew personally and as a couple. I hope you and your son have a similar success! There is an ancient greeting that pilgrims use to encourage each other when on the Camino. It means Onward! with perseverance and Godspeed - Ultreia!

You know it's bound to happen. Someone's gonna' tell you to dump that seven pound pack, There are lots of really comfortable backpacks that weigh 4# and a few that weigh less.

A Pocket Rocket is hard to beat so long as temps don't get too cold.

What's a Woobie?

I wanna' see another video when you've lost 80#.

KC

On the subject of light rifles, anybody play with the new Howa lwt rifle?

+1, nothing like a mountain hunt for motivation. You may want to check the conditioning thread on this forum to see what some other guys are doing.

As far as gear, you are on the right track in focusing on the your heaviest items--tent, bag, and sleeping pad. I didn't see you mention the pad but you may want to check out the Thermarest Neoair, and think about bringing a lightweight closed-cell foam pad like a 3/4 length z-rest to use in combination with it and to sit on while glassing, eating lunch, etc.

As far as a tent, I'm not experienced in hunting up there but my personal preference would not be a tarp that needs to be rigged using trekking poles in that location above treeline, especially with a down bag. You can get blasted with wind and rain, and I'd think you might want to consider a more bomb-proof shelter, even at the penalty of an extra pound or three. And personally I'd go with a synthetic bag and insulating layer, I'm not sure treated down has stood up to the test of time.

Lots of experienced AK guys here, hopefully they will chime in.

Nice rifle.

N61,

I'm envious but hopefully I'll draw a local tag. It'd getting tougher for a guy in mid-70s but it needs to be tried anyway.

Our sheep over here have taken a hit from bad winters....how are YT sheep doing and what general area are you headed for? I've sure seen some interesting areas to the West of you.

Your gear is on the heavy side alright but just keep on studying. I've gone to some of these new pants with spandex content. The lower priced stuff from 511 or Duluth Trading work fine. Impertech will be quite heavy also.

Those final ounces to become ultralight are also ultra-expensive.

I think I might've been the first guy to kill a big game animal with one. They're a nice little package.

The journey to lightweight is an interesting one. It's about compromise.

As a family we started very heavy years ago and ended up at 68 pounds total for three packs for a week in the mountains. 28, 22, 18. That was the average for the last few sheep hunts we did. Rifle not included in that weight.

The one place I finally compromised was with my integral designs sleeping bag. It was super light and collapsed to about the size of a grapefruit, but after many sleepless nights I added a pound and a half with a deluxe pad and warm down bag. The wonderful sleep was worth every ounce.
A 35* summer bag has no place on the sheep mountains. Lesson learned.

Tony Russ said that a sheep hunter will usually be a bit uncomfortable if weight and bulk are properly addressed. Agreed. Warmth and space come at a premium.

Thanks Mate...forgot to put in the pad but my son and I each bought a neo-air last summer when they were on sale. Impressive piece of technology, light comfortable and warm. Will use the tarp a bunch on training runs and if it isn't up to scratch I have been impressed with some of the Big Agnes 3 man offerings. I am resisting though. Andrew Skurka is a tarp guy even on his amazing cross Alaska/Yukon hike. The tarp requires skill in set up and site selection that looks like fun to learn. I have used a tarp tent and wasn't impressed with the moisture handling. I will give the tarp a whirl!

I have been thinking about the sleeping bag. I thought if my son and I both brought a woobie we could use them like a double comforter and cuddle. My other lightweight bag is a Western Mountaineering mighty mite that is rectangular and good to 35F. I sleep really warm but how much has that have to do with having a nice coat of blubber. Maybe without the blubber I'll need more bag?

Just googled it.

Looks pretty good! Bansner stock, 5.7#'s....

That plastic DBM might have to go.

Agreed on the plastic DBM..

Looks like the lwt rifle field is filling up nicely. Lots of choices.

In the famous words of EdT..."anyone can carry 70lbs of ultra light gear.." or something like that.

The point being, cut down on total items in the pack, not just the wt. of each item. Keep it simple, only bring what you really need.

And IMO better to carry 40lbs of gear in a 7lb. pack that carries heavier loads well than 50lbs. of "ultralight" gear in a 4lb. pack that sucks when packing 80lbs. of meat and gear.

I know the Astroplane is a good heavy hauler. Hard to experiment with 500.00 pieces of gear. Trying to get the base gear (including packs) to under 15 pounds for my son and I (30 pounds total) + food and hunting gear. Every ounce counts in this game.

Just curious, with losing all that weight, what are you going to do to build strength?

Hill Climbing, and weights. Pretty simple routine of squats, benchpress, deadlifts and some curls to rehabilitate a torn bicep tendon.

Also putting on lean muscle helps with the fat burning (or so I am told).

Not to hijack the thread, but dang Vern, that is motivational in itself, I hope I'm still doing this kind of stuff when I get there.

Best of luck in the draw!

That Optimus pot looks awesome... I'm going to have to pick one up.

Good luck next season, hope to see some pics of a nice dead ram!

Tanner

Thanks Tanner. We will do what we can.

How's that 20b shooting for you ?

So 300pds? You carry that weight well my friend and enjoy your weight loss effort!

Can you drop the plastic container the Pocket Rocket comes in and get the lid shut on the Optimus? Ounce or two there. How many meals a day will you boil? Mountain House?

How long will you actually be on the hunt? In the mountains. Several trips?



Thanks

Hello Shaq. 2 boils a day. I dehydrate a lot of meals at home. Porridge in the morning. Cold meal at lunch and dehydrated meal in the evening. For water I either chemically treat or use a small Sawyer filter. I can lose the plastic stove safe...still won't fit in the pot. Probably we will take the Polaris Ranger or Freighter Canoe and set up a base camp. Will do 1-3 day trips away from the base camp which will be set up with a bear fence to keep my gear safe.

One of my favourite cold meals was taught to me by a Canadian Ranger. A wheat wrap with peanut butter and a sea weed sheet as used in Sushi. Rolled tight like a cigar. Surprisingly good, easy to assemble and the combination of tastes make it hard to get sick of.

Oh and I started this journey at 305. Now down to a Svelte 290 (ha-ha) with a goal of 210.

This sample seems to be doing ok. Will need to wring it out a bit more time to be definitive. Last outing with a cheap Simmons 3.5-10X Whitetail I went 3/4 MOA with 150 Accubonds and RL 15 and Remington 150 CL factory loads. 1.25 MOA with 125 Nosler BT's and W748 and 1.75 with 200 Noslers and H414. Now have the Leupold on it and will take it out Monday. All most out of RL15 and haven't seen any RL powders for sale up here for 18 months.

Haven't had time to tune loads..just where I started. Preliminary work shows some promise.

Damn..started looking at some of the light weight options for packs. Technology does march on. Unfortunately I don't have enough money to grab onto every trend. I'd say if I had to do it over again that the rifle is the most expensive way to lose weight. Fun but not the most cost effective place to lighten up.

I hope you shoot a lightweight off hand better than I do!

Have your son carry the pot and fuel. You carry the pot. etc

If possible.

Yes splitting up the load will help. If my daughter comes it gets even better. Should have had more kids!

But then you wouldn't have money for gear.

If doing 1-3 day trips, I'd be much more inclined to run with the tarp. Which bearpaw one are you using?

The whole woobie thing looks awkward to me, but I guess people use it. I like a decent insulated (primaloft for me) jacket and pants that can be thrown on over top of stuff for glassing and zipped off for moving. Seems like your down jacket will fill that role for you. I'd ditch the impertech for sheep, but that depends on how much rain you are likely to deal with.

As an exercise, I like to cut my gear down to the minimum I need to survive, then add luxuries from there. First luxuries are in sleeping well/warm.

For 1-3 days, I'd probably have no "spare" clothes, and your food weight can be cut way down. Good way to go. Have fun with the hunt prep.

Good point!

This one, in it's three person variation. Like it a lot so far.

http://www.bearpawwd.com/tents_tarps/lagarita.html

North, thanks for the link, right in my back yard. They have some good stuff!

I have bought several things from them. Good construction, fast shipping and well priced. An unassuming little company that seems to have some pride. Well worth supporting!

That is impressive indeed!!! Figure 1.5 pounds of food per person per day makes that roughly 32 pounds in just food! So just gear is down around 36 pounds. Everyone using 4 pound packs makes that down to just 24 pounds of stuff besides you are putting in your packs!! After taking 5 pounds out for spotter and tripod and another 4 pounds for 3 pairs of binos you are looking at less than 15 pounds split 3 ways for the gear you need to survive, or 5 pounds per person. Raingear per person around 1.5 pounds, sleeping bag/quilt another 1.5, sleeping pad another .5 and either a puffy coat or baselayer for additional warmth when needed and you are there. Of course shelter and cooking stove and fuel comes into play there, but very doable for sure. Very well done indeed.

Of course omitting rifle and water weight, trekking poles all help for sure when starting out helps, but regardless that is impressive!

It sure didn't happen overnight.
And honestly with the very latest technology like the platinum Big Agnes fly creek three man tent at an even 3 pounds, Kifaru dyneema <3 pound packs, etc, more weight could be shed these days.

My first sheep hunt I did in jeans/cotton shirts and coats, my pack was 65 pounds without rifle! and I literally took pots and pans with handles on them... Crazy.
After we about died of hypothermia with a shredded tent--we had record rains that year--soaked clothes and exhausted bodies we resolved to be as light as technology and a sane budget would allow.
The rest was history.

And that 1.5 each/day seems like a heavy weight for food, Luke.
At least for us...Of course we could pack more.
If one is using dehydrated stuff, the weight is in the water.
I don't think we take more than ten pounds total for a week for all.
Lots of dehydrated berries, lots of oatmeal, couscous, small oriental noodles (not ramen)...couple of bear creek soups.
We've always been blessed with sheep or goat meat to round out the week.

A quick list of some weight savers we use:

Aquamira squeeze bottles--no pumps.
Pocket rocket stove with igniter and two small gas bottles (always more than enough)...no liquid gas or hoses ever. (!)
8X32 HD bincs...large objective glass is a waste up there. One exception--I pack/wear geovid hds that we all use for the rangefinder technology.
Spotter: Leica apo 62mm angled televid with zoom. 3lbs tops. Pedco 3 ounce tripod.
Piranta havalon knives.

Rab summit mountain tent 3lbs 14 ounces...breathable 'event' and bomber all the way.
Integral designs Siltarps (ounces) for meat/gear protection and as umbrella for 'airing' meat...

I'm sure there is more, but it's fun seeing how we all get to similar places with the lightweight gear.
Experience can be a tough teacher!

Yeah I threw out 1.5 pounds as a safe bet...usually I have found I need between 1-1.25 pounds per day per person works for my wife and I. 10 pounds of food for 3 people for a week comes to less than a half pound of food per person per person per day. What are you using to get your cal/oz ratio so high?

Even at 1 pound of food per person per day, which I think is pretty light in my experience especially running the sheep mountains, thats 21 pounds just in food. Leaving 47 pounds worth for gear which is pretty good for 47 pounds which is pretty good for 3 people no doubt! Well done.

I usually figure 2lbs per day for food, and even at that I usually run out. Bars are what kill me weight-wise, but I hate stopping to cook something in the middle of the day.

I hear ya....I hate skimping on food weight. Its the one thing that keeps me going. But I think 1.25 is the sweet spot for me and my wife atleast. I realize its still a deficit and if you are burning 5-6K calories a day packing around in the mountains you can not eat enough to make up for that.

As side from downing straight olive oil I just don't see how three people can get by on 10 pounds of food for a week. But everyones body is different, just basing on what I found I need is all.

I go off at least 2# a day... I think anything less would kill me... But I'm a growing boy....grin

Tanner

How about Pork Rinds, 155 calories/oz and high in protein

Haha now you're talking Ed!!!

We eat "meals" twice a day. Oatmeal/berries in the a.m. often with some warmed gatorade, a fiber bar/goo for lunch, and coucous, or a soup, etc. for dinner.
We all have a pocket of mini gobstoppers too. They work wonders for keeping the energy up and mouth wet.
I would think that 75% of the weight of all of our sheep/goat camp meals is simple water which springs right up near our annual camp.
It ain't pleasurable, but it's superlight.

And we do lose weight on the mountain, no way to get around that short of packing twice the food.
We sure talk about Fast Eddie's in Tok a lot! I wish I had a buck for every mention of that place on the sheep mountain.
We gorge there before and after every sheep hunt.

Sounds like we have similar diets on a hunt, but mine comes out to between 2 to 3 times the weight per day per person than what you got going on. 2 meals a day are likely over 8 oz combined right there.

But we have granola cereal (with powdered milk in it so just add water)in the morning, with some via coffee
Then 2 fiber bars per day, and a s mini pack of M&Ms and a Gu as in there as well, then each get a freeze dried dinner. All that adds up to around 1-1.25 pounds.

Heck at less than half pound per person per day for food on average, a cliff bar and a gu would be nearly half the weight of your food for that day so you are having meals that weigh the same or less than a cliff bar?

Are you running on around 800-1200 calories per day in the field? I'd start bonking if only eating that many calories and actively hiking and hauling a backpack around.

I'm gonna pull on Renee's ear with this thread. She has the food packing down to a science.
She's in Cordova until Wednesday, but I'll ask her on the specifics weight wise and how things stack up on the scale with the food.
So, If i have this right, you and the wife together bring approx. twenty pounds of food for 7 days?

Funny story though, couple of years ago I had drawn a goat tag and we were on Kodiak waiting for Roland to be able to fly us out on, The ceiling was low.
We were killing time in our motel room, packing and re-packing...you know how it goes.
One of my buds pulls a FULL jar of JIFF peanut butter out of his pack.
I raised heck about it, kidding him and told him he's crazy to pack it. He did bring it and a lot of other food, and his wife buried a love note in the JIFF that we really gave him crap about on the goat mountain.
In spite of his extra weight with that jar and other food, it was really nice to gorge on crunchy peanut butter smeared on granola bars in the a.m.

Cool! Let me know what she comes up with. Very interested if you guys are getting by with .5-.75 lbs per person person, cause yeah right now a 7 day trip is between 18-21 pounds usually. Which is double what you guys do for 3 people.

Gobstoppers is a new one on me but I guess I'll have to check 'em out.

As far as the stove (pocket rocket) and two cannisters, has anyone ever looked at the trade-off in weight and number of boils between a lightweight stove like the 'rocket with two cannisters vs. a Jetboil with a single cannister?

I'm guessing the # of boils would be similar.

I too pack around 1.5 to 2 pounds of food per person. Most of the weight ends up as lunch snacks actually - hard salami, nuts, cheese and trio bars like stuff. For meals I generally cook Idahoan mash potatoes with a can of salmon or some sausage for breakfast, and red beans and rice type meals with sausage for dinner. I bring along peanut oil to supplement both meals. I also am not adverse to a couple cans of SPAM. SPAM is worth the weight and once when we lost the door to the woodstove we built a new one from a SPAM can - it saved the day.

I do not lose weight on long hunts, nor do I ever slow down. If I eat well I can go all day without stopping.

And regarding stove trade offs - I still carry a pocket rocket and canister to boil water, but with a light weight woodstove you really do not need to carry any propane. On a sheep hunt in the Brooks range we did all our cooking on the woodstove and found plenty of wood up to 4400 feet. On Kodiak you can generally find wood up to around 1800 feet (willow is best). So for trips over a week or so I would think the woodstove which weighs under 2 pounds would be the most weight effective.

These are known to my pard and I as power pills!

Figuring two pounds of food per day per person, for three that's 42 pounds in (mostly/majority) dry food for a week, couldn't imagine packing that. But, as they say; whatever works.

And these should be in every pack. They are as hard as a rock and last a long time. Just don't get one stuck in your throat when hiking, almost happened to me when I was puffing up the mountain.
This is the mega-box, but they come smaller...

As soon as the snow goes, I'm gonna do a tune-up trip, three days with nothing but Gobstoppers and pork rinds.

I'll report on the results.

Funny thing is that I travel light compared to my sheep partner. Especially when it comes to food.

If a trip is really long I'll be closer to 1.5 pounds than 2. But food is a different 'kind' of weight in the pack. It dissapears during the trip, and is generally not carried out. It's not like an ice axe or the SAT phone case - something that's heavy in and heavy out.

On a 10 day Brooks Range hunt 2 of us did carry in 35 pounds worth of food, but combined weight we were well under 100 pounds total including rifle (my pack weighed just under 50 while his weighed around 45). We did the hike in off the road thing too, and all told hiked over 60 miles between camps and then another 30 or so out of our various camps. On the way out our packs were both over 100 pounds because we were carrying meat - but by that time they only contained 5 pounds or so of food.

I eat the heavy stuff first and really don't mind going heavy on the food because as I said I am not carrying it out.

Another thing to consider is how much space something takes up in your pack. I'd rather something be more compact than a tiny bit lighter. My biggest complaint with mountain house meals is how much space they take up. Same goes for synthetic sleeping bags. I prefer down not because it is lighter but because it is so much more compact. And those propane canisters take up a lot of space too!

True, but I wouldn't be suprised you are packing atleast twice the weight of food you think you are... 20 pounds for 3 people for a week is still very lean on the calorie count IME.

Nope. Not the case.
So....Wife and I sat down and finally viewed this thread....she told me we pack 10 pounds of food for three of us for a seven day hunt. I didn't prompt that response, I asked her open-endedly, and she said exactly what I shared here.
She broke it down as well.
Cous cous, oats, soup mix, ramen type noodles....granola. Ten pounds is A LOT of dried food. Water is cheap, and available where we camp.

She was as shocked as I was with some of the weights you guys are packing into the mountains. 42# pounds of food?
Crazy.

Now I'll add...Given I drew Terror lake for goat this Fall, we'll be bringing at least 2-3 times the normal in food for a main camp.
Seldom do we have access to transportation via floats right to our hunting grounds like this year. We'll eat like kings and hopefully bring nothing out but nature's finest protein.

Spike camps will get the lightweight treatment...

Wow, you guys really go lean. If you figure 150 calories/oz and that is probably on the high side with the foods listed, that is 1150 calories/ day/ person.
For me. I need 2500-3000 / day for hunting trips.
Wish I could get by with so few. They would be a lot of weight to cut from my pack.

We also take about about 12 ounces of very dry, spicey homemade elk jerky...the best!

Could you get by with less calories, Ed? Dunno. Have you tried? Is your body going to cease to function? Probably not. Will you just be a bit more hungry? Probably.

Even the fittest of us can probably stand to lose a handful of pounds, at least I can at 6'5" 222.
If one is doing some crazy 100 mile endurance gig, by all means EAT/GORGE. At that point the caloric intake/expediture is vitally important.

We don't look at it in caloric terms. Renee is a dietitian, she makes her living consulting those things. We're aware of the very lean choices we make for a mountain hunt, but its typically once a year.
It's a short term trade off, and not one that will imperil us.

The most important thing to me personally is electrolytes. Heart health and proper rhythm is a big deal. Hyponatremia (lack of sodium in the system) is a real concern. Too much water can kill as fast as not enough. Gatorade powder and dried foods free of MSG and rich in natural potassium and sodium are where it is at.

I know a sheephunter in Alaska that hunts all week on coffee and cigarettes, I kid you not. Makes me want to barf. And he is successful! Go figure.
It makes my food choices seem like a Henry VIII feast.

Trev,

I have gotten by on around 1200 calories/day and it really effects my ability to function.
According to the calculations on the Basal Metabolic Rate charts for my age, height and weight I need 3297 calories/day to maintain weight, so if I am at 2500, I'm running a deficit of almost 800/day. At 1150 it would be serious deficit.
When I was training hard for ultra-marathons, I was eating between 5500 and 6000 calories a day, just to maintain 163 lbs.
It obviously works well for you and your family, but sure wouldn't work for me.

And yes, you are very right about electrolytes. If you haven't tried them you should give the NUUN electrolyte tablets a try.
I have found them to work very well.
http://www.nuun.com/

I don't weigh my food because it's depressing, but if my week+ trips last the intended duration and I shoot something, and the packout is tough, I eat it all and lose ten pounds. I'm thinking 1200 calories a day would kill me.

The sub-6000ci pack phenomenon has me a bit baffled as well, for one-tripping a deer or sheep. One-trip of a sheep had my horns atop the fully extended drawstring-blouse-deal on the top of my terraframe, held down by the lid. Cape and ul drybag of clothes were strapped to the loops on the back. Pack was JAMMED. Maybe the Stone-Glacier sandwich style relieves some need for capacity.

Your Astralplane will be fine if you figure out a way to suspend your meat bags between your shoulder blades instead of letting it slump to the sleeping bag compartment baffle.

EdT,

Can you post up links to those metabolic calculators?

Much appreciated, if so.

Totally agree regrading sub-6000ci pack thing; I just don't know how people do it. Even using a 7400 cu packs with a meat shelf, I would have the thing stuffed. I'm packing a 9500cu Kifaru this year... I'll save weight somewhere else, no way that I'm skimping on cubic inches.

Tanner

Certainly will.
Appreciate the link....

Here you go:
https://www.my-calorie-counter.com/calorie-calculator/

From 290 to 274. Looks like I'll be about 230 to 225 August 1st if I keep it up. Up to 5 miles of hill climbing 3 days a week and the knee tendonitus is under control. Starting to enjoy the exercise a great deal.

The 20B is a 5 pound (not 4.75 pounds) finicky bastard but I do have a few loads that are working ok. Wouldn't buy one if I had it to do over. Wouldn't be surprised that I could get a .5 pound heavier Savage lite weight to shoot better. Still getting 5"-6" groups at 415 yards isn't too bad. Funny thing is I can easily get 3" groups at 100 if I feed it a combination it doesn't like.

I'm at 2 pounds of food per day. I feel like an underachiever after this thread.