Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Bansners & Legendary arms works?

I have not had the resources to build something the past year or so . I own two Bansner built customs from his shop in Adamstown a 7-08 and a 300wm. I was looking around today and noticed Trop has acquired them. Whats the deal with Mark ? Did he totally sell, retire , still working? Anyone have more details than whats on the LAW website? Mark always used Jewells and Lilja , however I see LAW is using timney, a "match grade" barrel and that the pricing is substantially lower. Anyone know where they cut the corners? I would have liked to have had one more of Marks builds this year wasn't that year though.

It's good to see they too know how to screw up a 243 twist rate.

Wondered about this, as well, I have four rifles in original High Tech handles and like them very much.

I called them 2-3 weeks ago, as I have three superb old Brno actions left to build on and thot I might go with their stocks again. They, did not mention any changes to me and were happy to send me more stock blanks to BC, whenever.

I have, at present, 28 synthetic stocked big game rifles and have had most brands since my first used Brown Precision, built by a couple of locals and I, in summer 1985. All in all, I find High Tech stocks to be excellent for the $$$$ and hope that they continue to sell them just as they have been as changes are not needed, IMO.

I have mostly Mickys and think them "best", but, they are a bit dear for many and HTs certainly do the job.

Trop bought the rights to make the Brown 704 action and High Tech Stocks. They hired Mark to oversee the building of the new rifles. The new 704 has (at least) a 416 action body, but I don't know if the bolt itself is also SS. I sent them a message asking that question. Apparently Trop has a large amount of CNC machinery to make the actions so I'll assume that's where part of the cost savings starts. Don't know who's barrel they are using. I asked that as well.

Is Mark still running his own place and just consulting for these guys or did he give up the ship in Adamstown?

I believe he stopped building rifles himself and is know just going to be in partnership with Trop as Legendary Arms Works.

The price of the stock blanks has also risen to $290

Can you still get a High Teck stock separately ? . From the rifle desicription, the new stock has a "bedding block" so to speak for the recoil lug area and a " pillar" for the rear action/tang area. I don't believe that the original High Tech's had that. I believe Mark Bansners rifles had two conventional glassed pillars only.

I wonder if a guy could just buy one of these new 704 actions separately (w/ a trigger and that real nice looking aluminum floor plate/magazine box) and build something off that action. That Brown 704 was a sweet action and quite innovative as far as the extractor was concerned. If the new 704 has the same foot print as a 700 and the action screws were spaced the same, one could buy the action assembly, a McMillan stock and have a gunsmith install any number of top flight custom barrels to his exact specs (contour, length etc). I'd really like to know who's barrels they are using on the new rifle. Stock/bottom metal unit look very well made and have a nice tight fit as well. Made of aluminum too. I see, as for now anyway, that the "Big Five" model has a nice shadow line cheek piece and the others do not. I like a shadow line CP myself. I'm still waiting back to hear about the entire action being made from 416 R stainless and not just the body. The Brown had a CM body and bolt. In the end, it wouldn't be a deal breaker as the first thing I'd do is to have the Cerakote removed and have the action finished by Birdsong in Black-T anyway. I hope they offer a shadoe line cheek piece down the road on all models.

RD,

Yes, for the time being we can still buy High Tech stocks separately.

Casey

I got a Burns response back about the barrel maker...."proprietary" even though we know Burns uses Benchmark barrels.

Why in the world would you not let the customer know the quality of the most important component?

It could be just that they don't want to box themselves in on one maker given barrel availability these days. Heck, they could be making the barrel themselves. If it shoots, I don't really care that much and given the price of the rifle, I doubt they are using Krieger's, Broughton, Hart's or Lilja's. I really like this new rifle.

What........you want me to disappear ?

An answer to Grand's question.

I clicked away from the website the second I saw that 10" spec. Game over.

A 1-10 won't stabilize a 100gr bullet ?

A 1-10 will not stabilize some 90's.

I bought a mini Mauser stock they apparently had laying around in December. They said availability might be limited for a few months.

I stopped by Mark's shop this past November, wow all new faces there
Tom Webb is no longer there, must have been 7-8 new guys being trained
Mark informed me the stock making has moved down the road to Ephrata
The actions are made in Ephrata also. I did get to hold a prototype rifle and
action while there. Nice, I guess,I'm just a model 70 guy through and through
After I left I began to question Mark's decision, why after 25-30 years in the
business would you sell out all that you worked so hard to establish??
Having talked to a number of people in the area who are familiar with the
man who is running Trop, I won't be purchasing a LAW rifle he is interested
In money not delivering a quality product Remember you get what you pay for
My model 70 which is basically an �clat before they made that model cost me about
7500 and I knew exactly what brand of parts were going on gun
Just my .02

After a 25 to 30 year career and no kids to pass the shop off to maybe the guy just wanted to retire and reap the rewards of his hard work through the sale of the business. As a businessman I can not fault him for wanting to enjoy his golden years, at some point we all want to retire . As far as the continuation Law is not Bansner no matter how much they want to mimic him and his rifles . It's the guy driving the bus that matters and the fact that he put his hart and soul into his work. I look for guys that are still doing their own work rather than large enterprises where you never know who is really building the rifle. I look at it this way if you want fine art you go to Picasso not Looney Tunes. Best of luck to Mark and enjoy retirement.

Really hate to see folks bashing a product before they even hold one. Everybody deserves a chance. These rifles have the right pedigree to be potentially really nice. I would imagine they will be on par with the nosler patriot and similar rifles. Also, why is a 1:10 twist for a .243 bad? Isn't that pretty much the industry standard?

I had a Remington 700 SA ADL w/ check piece delivered last week for $232. Turn around time was less than a week from when I placed the order.

It looks like a nice rifle in the $1500-$2000 price range. If the quality control is monitored closely it should be a nice option for folks. Anyone have experience with the 704 action?

I'm onboard with you regarding this new company and Mark Bansner's reputation. I doubt that he'll let a POS go out with his name and well deserved reputation attached to it and if that turns out to be the case down the road, he'll either detach himself from the venture or try his hardest to make things right. His stocks are among the best and the Ed Brown 704 action was great also. As far as the twist rate in the 243 is concerned, if enough people bitch and moan about it, they'll probably change that as well to a 1-9". Unless the barrels turn out to be junk, I'd say they are bringing all the right stuff together to make a fine rifle at a very reasonable price.

The twist on the 243 is indeed a bit peculiar but from my perspective, there is very little to not like with "The Closer" offering.

Some will bemoan barrel lengths on some of the offerings but that's a pretty easy fix.

I just need to decide on a chambering I "need".

Scott,
Here is your answer - 7MM-08:) But you already knew that...

Where are you guys buying .243 rifles with a different twist than 1:10....the winchester website lists their twist as 1:10 as well as the nosler website in the patriot rifle.

Remington is 1-9.25

Same as Savage.

Ruger is 1-9"

You guys know more than me. I watched Bansner and his stock maker on the cable TV show "How it's made".

I bought (2) stocks, a 98 Mauser and a Rem 700 for $250 each, through Brownells and worked them with putty-cote and paint.

I got a Win M70 pre 64 bansner stock finished off 24HCF classified, for $400.

Brownells still has the blanks
http://www.brownells.com/manufacturers/HIGH%20TECH%20SPECIALTIES/index.htm

But I am so old, I don't think I have enough time left to be finishing stock blanks any more.

I have about 240 into mine
Think it looks good

Rifles look nice.

Thanks

Interesting, I emailed them 2 days ago and this is what they said:

"Thanks for your inquiry. The current stock prices are $290.00.
Thanks,
Xxxx xxxxxxx
Office Manager

261 E. Main Street
Adamstown, PA 19501
Phone: 717-484-2370
Fax: 717-484-0523"

I can only guess they literally just changed the price, or maybe charge more for different models ADL vs BDL etc. Maybe I ordered just in time or or even got a discount for being so charismatic ? This was the email I received; I called a couple days later to place the order on the phone. Total cost w/ shipping was $232 and I got it last week.


From: Info Mailbox (LAW) <infolaw-arms.com>
To: XXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Monday, January 5, 2015 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: 700 short action ADL w/ cheek piece price

The cost of the our Remington 700 Stock with cheek is $218.00 plus shipping. The turnaround time is approx. 6 weeks. If you have any more questions please let me know.
Thanks,
Hope Gehman
Office Manager

Possibly a gunsmith or commercial discount?

I hope they put the cheek piece on the production LAW's.

In an email last week their office manager quoted me a price of $218 plus shipping for a blank. That was for a Rem 700 ADL blank.

Has anyone here filled in the barrel channel for a factory cut sporter weight to reduce the gaps for a mountain rifle barrel profile? Is that a difficult job?

Not difficult at all. Just get some of that stuff they use in body shops (think they call it bondo) and fill the barrel channel. Wrap a couple of thicknesses of masking tape around the barrel and drop her into the stock. Mask off the outside and top edges of the stock so that when you done you just pull the barreled action out, then remove the masking tape from the outside of the stock and you're done. If you don't mask off the outside of the barrel channel, it will take a lot more work of sanding to taste.

Note, some guys will use Acraglass bedding compound to fill in the barrel channel, but it is harder to sand that bondo. You could just ask a body shop guy what they use to repair Corvette body cracks as they might know of something newer/better.

I prefer not to use Bondo for thick applications, but as RDFinn notes, many have had success with it in filling the channels. I have used Devcon and Marine-Tex, with epoxy microballoons purchased at the hobby store. Here is a Bansner that I did

Nice looking work on that stock! What size barrel did you modify the stock for?

That is an HS Precision PHL factory barrel channel. Aside from the shank, it is very small - roughly a #1 or slightly smaller

Marine Tex is fantastic stuff and a lot of gunsmiths use it as a bedding compound. I have several McMillans that were bedded with Marine Tex and they are as solid as a rock. Only potential problem with it is if you don't work with it quickly, it hardens up and removing the excess can be a real PITA. Marine-Tex when fully cured, can be drilled and tapped. They use that stuff to repair transoms on boats so you can get the idea how fricken strong it is. I don't recall exactly how long the "working time" is with it and, IMO, it's probably better left to those who are experienced with using it. As you know, it's a two part epoxy so it'll say on the can how long you have to work with it before it starts to cure.

They missed perfection by "" much.

The rate of twist on the .22, .24, and .25 calibers is too slow. If they'd twisted those three 1-8" (instead of 1-12" for the .22s, 1-10" for the .24s and .25s), I can't imagine improving on that platform.

I see that the 7mm RM has a 1-9" twist and the 7-08 has a 9" ish twist as well, but the 280 Ackley has a 1-10" twist. Not sure why they make those decisions, but I could make due with the 10 twist in the Ackley as I currently only use 140's and 150's in my Ackley. One thing that is very nice is to see a custom action that has a receiver and bolt made out of stainless steel. Almost every other custom (Remington clone) has a SS body but they use a CM bolt. Off the top of my head, only HS Precision uses all SS in their actions (17-4 body and a 410/416 series bolt). I guess because the new 704 actions will be CeraKoted, they don't have to worry about using two similar steels (stainless) and galling.

Greetings Campfire Colleagues,

Thank you for the comments and feedback on our rifles. I have posted some information here to try to clarify our company and the plans we have for bringing our rifle to market:
Legendary Arms Works Rifles-A new rifle manufacturing company

I will try to answer some of the questions and comments above:

Wildone: Thank you for starting the thread. A few quick answers to your questions. Mark Bansner had an outstandingly successful custom gunsmith business with a worldwide reputation. Just walk the floor of DSC or SCI with him and you will see what I mean. What does one do when you reach the pinnacle of your career success? Go home and sit in the rocking chair? For anyone here who knows Mark you will know what I am refereeing to. One answer is �more of the same but bigger� which is the reason that Mark decided to team up with Trop Gun Shop. The opportunity to build a firearms company to produce a 100% American made rifles with the features sought by shooters and hunters was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Mark is the President of our manufacturing division, still works on rifles as well as directs the day today activities and gets his hand dirty.
We opted to use Timney triggers as part of the balance decision company�s deal with of cost versus benefit. Timney triggers have a great reputation as a hunting trigger. We have not �cut corners� on this rifle but it is a production rifle versus a custom rifle where the sky is the limit. Our barrels are tested for accuracy and they perform. As with any new venture we are always looking for ways to improve performance and quality and it will be an ongoing activity.

Steelhead: Not sure I would use the term �screw up� the twist rate on the 243 as 1 in 10� is the industry accepted standard which is where we started. Clearly there is a movement in that caliber to use heavier bullets and faster twists and we know that a number of other manufacturers are in the 1 to 9� range. I have taken these recommendations back to Mark and the team for review and if I had to guess we may move to the faster twist.

SNAP: Glad you think the High Tech Specialties stocks are well regarded. Mark used that stock after purchasing the company 20 years ago on all his rifles and we have basically kept it the same with a few minor modifications to make production easier and faster. They are still hand laid fiberglass with all the finish, fit and feel of the originals.

RDFinn: Correct, we purchased the full rights to manufacture the 704 action. Please refer to my link above for the full background. The action and the bolt are both 416 Stainless steel and you are correct CNC machining is the secret. Continuous output at close tolerances.

Wildone: per my comment above Mark di not �give up the ship�. He is an integral and primary member of the management team and directs all our production facilities. To take Mark away from the gunsmith bench would be akin to leaving a thoroughbred race horse tied in the stable all day. He IS Legendary Arms Works.

Regarding our stocks: Yes they are still available for individual purchase though I will say that our production feed is now focused on the LAW 704 gun and so the selection may be limited. Once we get the rifle production more established we will be offering a wide variety of stocks for individual sale. The price is $290 and the quality of the stock is superior to any other on the market.

RDfinn: We will be making actions available to the trade. The action is basically the Ed Brown 704 design be we have made a few modifications since the original design. I will be posting a full Actions specification sheet shortly that will give all the details. I�m not sure of the logic of using another stock on the 704 action when you can use our stock. Yes the Big Five has a shadow line cheek piece, the Closer and Professional do not. Our barrels are a proprietary source and we test them for accuracy. As you state, what really matters is that it shoots.

Steelhead: I�m guessing your reference to PT Barnum was done tongue in cheek because the company is genuine. We believe our 704 rifle offers a great deal of hunting and shooting accuracy and features for a challenging price point. Get one in your hand and then let me know how you feel�I�ve seen the reaction far too many times and it starts with a smile. No showmanship here, just 100% American made quality.

Bloodworks: Don�t count it out yet, see my comments above regarding the 243 twist rate and the feedback. We will take it under serious consideration.

Hawkmtn: Glad to hear that you visited Mark�s shop so you have seen the ramp up first hand. Even bigger now. I suggest that before you draw conclusions about why Mark teamed up to build a production facility you talk with Mark on your next visit. As I state above he is not jeopardizing his success but merely enhancing it and taking it to the next level. As most of know making a living at being a custom gunsmith is very challenging and most never really make it. Mark did and did it successfully for 30 years doing all the things that are expected�kids through college, nice home etc. This is the next step and as I said he is actively involved day to day. Your comment about Dave Dunn, is clearly unfounded if you have never met Dave. He is a �gun guy� first class with very high ethics and a desire to make an American made gun. I challenge you to visit the store, meet Dave and hear the story first hand before you draw conjecture based on other opinions. Get one of our rifles in your hands and then let me know what you think. Your eclat was a custom gun and they are at the top of the heap by a master riflesmith and the price reflects it. Our 704 rifle is not the same as a custom but it certainly beats anything on the market at that price. Be open to change and I/ bet once you handle one you will agree.

Wildone: Pure speculation, here are the facts. Mark�s son Garret is actively involved in the company and works beside his father. Per my comments above Mark did NOT retire and did not sell out. He gets his hand dirty every day on the rifles. We are not implying that LAW is the same as a Bansner rifle, never said that. It does however reflect the input, expertise and experience of Mark�much like David Miller having input on a Model 70 bottom metal. It is basically the difference between custom and production but our production is meant to be a higher standard. We will be reinstating the full custom business but probably not before 2016 in all honesty. Apples and oranges.

JasonH: Thanks for the insight. You are correct�get one of our guns in your hands and then judge. We are just trying to run an open and transparent firearms company that is focused on high quality. I do consider the Nosler Patriot one of our main competitors and they produce a fine rifle but the differences are vast once you dig into the details. The controlled round feed of the 704 is only one feature, there are many others.

RDfinn: It looks to me that as you thought further about the rifle, our company and Mark you came to a conclusion that is spot on. Thanks for your openness and honesty. Message heard on the 243 twist rate�did we mention the other caliber selection we offer that is unique�

4agerThanks for the feedback on the twists. Clearly there is a movement toward faster twists to shoot heavier and longer bullets. Your feedback will be taken back to Mark and the gunsmith team.

Thank you all for the honest feedback. Clearly twist rates are important to this shooting community and I will take the feedback to Mark and the team. We are working diligently to get rifles into the hands of customers. Please feel free to PM me if you have other questions.
Paul

Propriety barrels? Never heard of them. Just curious as to why you are willing to tell who makes the other components but not the barrels

This is the part that has me concerned. I've had several of the original stocks from Mark over the years.

When you say they're still "hand laid glass" does that mean they're still made with sheets of glass cloth like they've always been? Or are you using chopped glass?

I think in general Marks previous stocks finished up at around 26 oz's with paint and bedding w/ 1" Decelerator. What's the current average weight now that you've added aluminum?

Twist a 243 1:8 or 1:9, and I will buy one. I love the 243, but the 1:10 twist is a deal killer for me.
I've owned several bansner stocks, and still choose them as my first choice when looking for a high-quality but not too expensive stock. I'm interested to hear as well about the aluminum block.

Tag

Brad, Handlaid fiberglass sheets the same as the original Bansner. Same look, feel, fit and finish, and strength just some changes on the molds to make it easier for production. Side by side against your stocks and you will be hard pressed to tell the difference

Steelhead: Proprietary barrels means that we have taken great pains to select barrels that shoot accurately in this case. Because of our business arrangement we are precluded from giving additional information but I can tell you that they are a major barrel manufacturer, air gauged and tested to make sure they shoot. I once heard Mark say something like "I could give a [bleep] if you stamp the barrel with pink polka dots as long as it shoots". All other material except the Timney trigger are ours.

Paul

Reed, current average weight of the finished, painted stocks?

Up... still waiting.

up

I have a lot of respect for Mark and if any of my posts were taken anywhere outside of that context they were misread. Am I disappointed he is not building custom rifles anymore , well yes I am. But Mark has to do whats good for him no harm no foul . Good luck in your new venture Mark.

Reed Thanks for responding and good luck to you as well. Production guns just don't work for me anymore but all the best to you .

Mark came by my booth at SHOT and we talked for about 20 Min.

He is done doing custom work and this new venture is to offer a production rifle of very high quality at a reasonable price.

I would say he is excited about a new challenge.

While I am sure all of you guys were great customers he did say he will no longer have to "deal with Prima Donnas" and will get to build great rifles as he sees fit.



Are you not the little detective.

are you implying that I am am Prima Donna John?

Reed stated somewhere that down the road they will have a "custom shop" that will offer rifles "similar" to the customs that Mark made for years.

Not hardly.

Most every customer is great but the rare Prima Donna can really be a pain. I didn't have many to deal with because I didn't offer much as far as options. Mark always built with lots of options and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure a few guys are gonna want stuff that is going to be a real problem.

LAW, good luck on your venture. Always nice to have lots of options to choose from.

A 1-10 243 Winchester won't kill stuff. No way.

Reed;

LH versions of the LAW rifle?

Why are you doing this?

You think it's all about you, dontcha?

Until proven otherwise.

A LH LAW rifle is getting you all horned up, ain't it? You're thinking about how uber one of those LH in .243 or .22-250, with a non-FUBAR twist rate, would be.

Unfortunately, yes. And in either of those calibers.

But it would be nice to have uber heavy for caliber bullets as an option for a varmint rifle.

Thus, the non-FUBAR twist.

A .22-250 slinging 75 grain A-Max? A .243 with 105s?

Appreciate that. I missed it on the first read through.

No point in cutting out the ability to use the 105s though.

These rifles are just a bit too heavy for me to get my wallet out though. 6.8lbs + scope/sling/ammo brings it outside what most mountain hunters want to pack around. Knock off 10-16 ounces and you'll have something to justify the price tag.

Greetings All,

I am posting answers to questions and other information on this thread to avoid duplication to my original posting here:

Legendary Arms Works Rifles-A new rifle manufacturing company

Please direct any questions to that thread.

Thanks for your interest in our rifles and the feedback and opinions,
Paul