Thank for the interest and recent postings in Legendary Arms Works rifles. I would like to take the opportunity to respond to the posting and some of the comments related to Legendary Arms Works and to give clarification about the company.I have posted similar information on other forums because we want to ensure that the most accurate and honest information is available to our customer base.
In the spirit of full disclosure-My name is Paul Reed and I am the Chief Operating Officer for Trop Gun Shop Corporation and Legendary Arms Works. Trop Gun Shop is a retail and online firearms company and we have a manufacturing division that includes Legendary Arms Works where the 704 rifles are being built. We are the sole owners and producers of the Legendary Arms Works Model 704 bolt action rifle. A little bit of history about the company will help to clarify. The creation of Legendary Arms Works comes about through the joining of three forces in the firearms industry and is an interesting story that will help to understand the company and the people driving it.
Ed Brown created the 704 bolt action around 2002 with improvements over the next few years that led ultimately to the Model 704. He produced a small number of rifles for a time period and they were of very high quality and had excellent accuracy. The development of the 704 action was novel at the time and for anyone who knows Mr. Brown would not be surprised at his design, it is an engineering accomplishment. Mr. Brown's business grew substantially and during that time the interest in high quality AR style rifle was growing at a fast pace. Ed decided to concentrate on AR rifles as well as his outstanding 1911 pistols and the bolt action production languished.
In 2012, Mr. David Dunn, to whom I report, purchased Trop Gun Shop in Elizabethtown Pennsylvania. Dave has deep experience and keen interest in the firearms industry and was a consultant to The American Custom Gunmakers Guild, ATK and other organizations in the shooting sports. He has interests and knowledge in the fine gun market as well as military and tactical firearms. Trop Gun Shop dates back to 1961 and has been a mainstay in the Pennsylvania firearms business. Dave and his wife Tara, rebuilt the company both physically and financially and it includes a modern state of the art indoor shooting range, 13000 square feet of retail space and a vibrant and growing e-commerce business. Visit our Web site at: Trop Gun Shop
Mark Bansner, a formally trained gunsmith with a world-class reputation under the business name of Bansner's Ultimate Rifles, has been building state-of-the-art bolt action rifles on a variety of actions for 30 years. Many of you know about or own one of Mark's rifles and his reputation as a riflesmith is first order. Approximately 20 years ago Mark purchased a synthetic stock making company, High Tech Specialties, and over the course of many years continually refined the hand laid fiberglass stock to enhance accuracy, pointability and durability. Mark used these stocks in the production of his Ultimate Rifles as well as making them available on the secondary market to customers via the High Tech Specialties Web site and through Brownells. Mark achieved a worldwide reputation for producing outstanding firearms for the hunting and shooting community.
In 2013 David Dunn purchased the rights to produce and market the 704 action in its entirety from Ed Brown under Trop Gun Shop business. This purchase included all of Ed's drawing and engineering diagrams, spare parts and specialized machinery with full rights to produce and sell the 704 action and rifles based on this action.
In early 2013, David also teamed up in a business agreement to purchase Bansner's Ultimate rifles and High Tech Specialties stock works from Mark. This purchased included all of Mark's business and Mark remains on the management team as President of our manufacturing division. They subsequently formed a new company, Legendary Arms Work, with a goal to produce an American made, state-of-the-art production style bolt action rifle at a competitive price point. It is our company�s view that high quality rifles can be built in America with all the features shooters seek. We feel we can move away from the current industry path of producing cheaper and cheaper injection molded, MIM or cast parts rifles in a race to the bottom. The joining of these three forces, The 704 action, Trop Gun Shop financial and manufacturing capabilities, and Mark Bansner custom firearms expertise, gave rise to Legendary Arms Works. The mission of the company is to produce a rifle of outstanding quality and accuracy that will appeal to the worldwide market at a price that every shooter can afford.
Over the past year Mark and his team have been diligently enhancing and making design modifications on the 704 action to get ready for production. No detail has been left out in this time consuming and expensive process. For example Mark and his gunsmiths spent nearly two full weeks adjusting the design for the 3 positions safety to get the timing, function and feel exactly right. We also have been ramping up a manufacturing and production facility for the stocks and rifle assembly and I have overseen the development of the LAWS Web site. Our company is located in Lancaster County Pennsylvania which is truly the birthplace of American rifle making dating back to the early 1700s and The Pennsylvania Rifle a fact that is not lost on those of us dedicated to the model 704. We formally launched the new company officially in December 2014 and have had outstanding success at the Dallas Safari Club and most recently announcing it at the 2015 SHOT Show where we hosted a writer�s event at the SHOT range day. Our rifles have been used by Craig Boddington in Africa, Canada and the United States and we have become the official rifle sponsor of his television show, The Boddington Experience. In addition, we have a sponsorship relationship with Freddy Harteis, The Hollywood Hunter, and Freddy is using our rifles now on a variety of hunts.
We are currently in late stage production of our three introductory models: The Closer, the Professional and The Big Five. Each of these models have a number of similarities including the M704 true controlled round feed action, a Timney trigger, stainless match grade barrels and a High Tech Specialties fiberglass stock. The rifles action has a strong similarity to a Remington 700 model with the round body to allow for easier bedding and will take 700 bottom metal. Our rifles include Weaver style scope bases on the Closer and Professional and Talley style bases on The Big Five. Complete details and descriptions as well as photographs of our rifles can be viewed at the Legendary Arms Works website: Legendary Arms Works
We are now moving into a full production mode with the hope to have rifles available in the March or April timeframe. For anyone who has been involved in building a firearms manufacturing facility, you can understand the monumental tasks and amount of work plus huge financial commitments that are required to undertake such an endeavor. The rifle actions are machined from 416 stainless steel on state of the art CNC machines. Currently we are producing two action lengths, the short action 308 size, and a long action 30-06 size that will handle standard magnum rounds such as the 300 Winchester and 375 H&H magnum. Our plans and ideas are many and include a true magnum sized action and eventually left handed configured actions. For the moment we are offering a rifles in a broad and novel variety of caliber options such as the 35 Whelen, 26 Nosler, and 6.5 Creedmoor etc. but are limiting stock color and Cerakote metal finish colors to allow us to get rifles out to our customers. At some point in the future we will begin again offering custom rifles similar to what Mark offered for many years. Our rifles come with a full lifetime guarantee for the life of the rifle not the owner and an accuracy guarantee. All the pertinent details can be found at the Legendary Arms Works website.
We would be pleased to answer any questions about the rifle and our production as we can but may beg for a bit of patience in us getting the rifles to the market. We waited until our production facility was well under way to announce the company to avoid the usual firearms industry new product announcement and significant time lag before availability. The rifle is truly 100 % American made, every piece of metal, spring, screw etc. is a 100% American made and we believe we have a price point that will pose a very significant challenge to our competitors. In addition we will make our Model 704 actions available to purchase to the gunsmith trade.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide insight into our company and the people that are driving at and we look forward to our success. Please visit our Website for more information.
Jeezus Gawd you Clueless Fhuqks go wayyyyyyyyyyy outta your way,to fhuqk simple [bleep] up! That is an awesomely pathetic Fluff piece,fixating on STUPIDITY. The name dropping is fhuqking HILARIOUS! Like ANY of you dumb fhuqkers associated and who "helped" with this Goat Fhuqk,have a first fhuqking clue?!? PLEASE cite how you all really "thought" this out! Laffin'!
As opening moves,you totally botched twist rates. Then cite NOTHING in regards to COAL latitude or throat geometry.
Here's a fhuqking question. How come all of you stupid fhuqkers bolted together,can so badly botch so many things...given all your collective "knowledge" and "experience"?!? Laffin'!
A herd of Salad Eaters threw some schit together and dumbfhuqks as stupid as you,think it is "something"?!? You gals had best delete your dumbfhuqkery and connect some dots.
Thank me later for the guidance.
Hint.
Wow.
P.S. and by the way,consider it a Two Dog Dare,to get some of your "names" to say something about rifles,glass or bullets and I assure you,it will be funnier than fhuqk. You obviously are in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over your head and will need to burn more than a few Life Lines,to begin to crowd par.
Thanks for the information. I have been and will continue to watch the development of Legendary Arms Works. And will keep you in mind when I "need" another rifle.
Also please do not judge the membership by one or two posts. Most people here have at least a few manners and are reasonably polite.
Mr. Reed, Welcome to 24HCF. Merging/integrating multiple businesses into a single operating unit is a significant endeavor. I wish your group well. As a Southpaw, I will be waiting (patiently) to see when the Left Hand versions become available.
Finally, the "ignore" button is very handy for blocking out the "noise".
After your thoughtful introduction, I'm ashamed that your first response was this.
I've always wanted a "Brown" rifle. I'm looking forward to doing business with your firm. Perhaps you can come back here when things are in full swing, and you can tell us where the dealers are so we can see your rifles.
Welcome, and thank you for posting; the information is interesting.
One design point catches my eye from a safety perspective.
From this photo of the bolt on the website, it looks like the extractor undercuts almost all of one lug, and there appears to be a hole drilled through the bolt for a pin or screw to hold the extractor in line with the lugs. This bolt design seems like weak from a safety perspective.
Any more information or explanation regarding this design?
Glad you think the High Tech Specialties stocks are well regarded. Mark used that stock after purchasing the company 20 years ago on all his rifles and we have basically kept it the same with a few minor modifications to make production easier and faster. They are still hand laid fiberglass with all the finish, fit and feel of the originals.
This is the part that has me concerned. I've had several of the original stocks from Mark over the years.
When you say they're still "hand laid glass" does that mean they're still made with sheets of glass cloth like they've always been? Or are you using chopped glass?
I think in general Marks previous stocks finished up at around 26 oz's with paint and bedding w/ 1" Decelerator. What's the current average weight now that you've added aluminum?
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Brad, it sounds pretty clear to me that he is saying that they are made the same way but just on a larger scale. The original High Tech stocks that Mark put on his customs were excellent. From their literature it sounds like they have designed some sort of modified aluminum bedding block system for the recoil lug area and a separate type pillar for the rear tang.
I hope that's the case... I've always liked the Banser and would hate to see it jacked with. "Aluminum bedding blocks" are something that is a warning flag to me (think chopped glass).
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Curious as to why they are a "warning flag" to you. I've always thought of bedding blocks as a way to get a better and perhaps stiffer platform than having a synthetic stock without a bedding system, meaning not glassed/Marine-Texed w/o pillars as well. In the literal sense, "bedding blocks" are not really a bedding system when you are trying to mate a receiver to a particular stock. A bedding system using pillars and some form of epoxy perfectly mates (or cratels) the receiver to the stock so that their are no voids between the two or IOW no air space at all. With factory actions there are certain variances between the size of the receiver at the front and at the rear. A stock company has to account for those tiny variances by going slightly larger so that all their stocks will mate to a factory receiver. Obviously, that can't happen with a aluminum chassis so to get that perfect mate, you'll still have to use some sort of epoxy to fill in the gaps. To me, aluminum bedding blocks are better than no bedding, but I still prefer the old standard of using pillars and Marine-Tex.
The only stocks I'm aware of that use aluminum blocks are all chopped glass... they need them for strength. That's why it's a warning flag.
I don't get adding a heavy chunk of metal in the lug area and a pillar in the rear... why not just pillars in both?
Seems self defeating.
One of the raison d'etre of a fiberglass stock is light weight. Start adding "blocks" and the ounces start accumulating.
On the other thread Reed answered the question about glass, but didn't answer the portion about current weight.
I have a McMillan Hunters Edge on order and had been contemplating cancelling it to order another Bansner... it's looking less likely I'll be doing that. The original Bansner was already around 2oz's heavier, and it sounds like even more now.
That makes them out for me.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
But, it would be nice if the gent would respond to my weight query to remove all doubt... I find it hard to believe an electronic scale is not on the premises.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
The only stocks I'm aware of that use aluminum blocks are all chopped glass... they need them for strength. That's why it's a warning flag.
I don't get adding a heavy chunk of metal in the lug area and a pillar in the rear... why not just pillars in both?
Seems self defeating.
One of the raison d'etre of a fiberglass stock is light weight. Start adding "blocks" and the ounces start accumulating.
On the other thread Reed answered the question about glass, but didn't answer the portion about current weight.
I have a McMillan Hunters Edge on order and had been contemplating cancelling it to order another Bansner... it's looking less likely I'll be doing that. The original Bansner was already around 2oz's heavier, and it sounds like even more now.
That makes them out for me.
If you take what I said before about action variances then I think you might understand why bolting a receiver to one solid aluminum chassis can cause the action to flex or twist so to speak when you tighten the two together. I think using a separate system (block type up front and a pillar of sorts) at the rear makes more sense. I might be entirely wrong about this so it's best to leave this with the experts, like Mark Bansner.
As fa as I low from having had several original Bansner stocks,solid fiberglass pillars were molded into the stock,as opposed to adding them afterwards,as we do with some other designs. But each stock had to be bedded to the rifle.
Seems that has been replaced by the aluminum bedding blocks, probably to facilitate easier manufacturing on a mass basis as opposed to the older design which required individual bedding of each stock,which would be more expensive and time consuming....one of those little things we do for ourselves or paid Bansners to do for us...a "custom" touch. Not something we usually get in a production rifle.
Hart in Pennsylvania used to use poured pillars made from Bisonite, then Marine-Tex for bedding the action. Like you said, very time consuming and not something you will see on a production rifle. Sounds like some folks would like to see these new rifles with a custom bedding job, Krieger barrel and maybe throw in a Jewell trigger too for $1500.
As fa as I low from having had several original Bansner stocks,solid fiberglass pillars were molded into the stock,as opposed to adding them afterwards,as we do with some other designs. But each stock had to be bedded to the rifle.
Seems that has been replaced by the aluminum bedding blocks, probably to facilitate easier manufacturing on a mass basis as opposed to the older design which required individual bedding of each stock,which would be more expensive and time consuming....one of those little things we do for ourselves or paid Bansners to do for us...a "custom" touch. Not something we usually get in a production rifle.
Bob, I've had a couple Bansners and did the work on them myself. To my knowledge they never came with pillars. IMO, one of the best "pillars" to use to keep weight down is carbon arrow shafts cut, and epoxied in. Aluminum ain't needed.
I have no interest in these rifles at all, I'm only interested in the stock for use on M70's... I think the Bansner for the pre-64 M70 is a great stock with its straight comb and addition of a cheekpiece. Aids in getting "into the scope" that of needs is mounted higher on a pre-64 than on a Classic.
I would greatly appreciate a response from Reed as to their average painted weight.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Brad I had Bansners do the bedding....that's what they told me.But maybe they DID install the pillars in the bedding process.Since you worked on them yourself you would know.
Can tell you that there were for sure pillars in mine and they were not aluminum,so maybe Clay (I think that was his name) installed them during bedding and I misunderstood what he said.
In any event those screw would bottom out and that would be IT!
Thank for the interest and recent postings in Legendary Arms Works rifles. I would like to take the opportunity to respond to the posting and some of the comments related to Legendary Arms Works and to give clarification about the company.I have posted similar information on other forums because we want to ensure that the most accurate and honest information is available to our customer base.
In the spirit of full disclosure-My name is Paul Reed and I am the Chief Operating Officer for Trop Gun Shop Corporation and Legendary Arms Works. Trop Gun Shop is a retail and online firearms company and we have a manufacturing division that includes Legendary Arms Works where the 704 rifles are being built. We are the sole owners and producers of the Legendary Arms Works Model 704 bolt action rifle. A little bit of history about the company will help to clarify. The creation of Legendary Arms Works comes about through the joining of three forces in the firearms industry and is an interesting story that will help to understand the company and the people driving it.
Ed Brown created the 704 bolt action around 2002 with improvements over the next few years that led ultimately to the Model 704. He produced a small number of rifles for a time period and they were of very high quality and had excellent accuracy. The development of the 704 action was novel at the time and for anyone who knows Mr. Brown would not be surprised at his design, it is an engineering accomplishment. Mr. Brown's business grew substantially and during that time the interest in high quality AR style rifle was growing at a fast pace. Ed decided to concentrate on AR rifles as well as his outstanding 1911 pistols and the bolt action production languished.
In 2012, Mr. David Dunn, to whom I report, purchased Trop Gun Shop in Elizabethtown Pennsylvania. Dave has deep experience and keen interest in the firearms industry and was a consultant to The American Custom Gunmakers Guild, ATK and other organizations in the shooting sports. He has interests and knowledge in the fine gun market as well as military and tactical firearms. Trop Gun Shop dates back to 1961 and has been a mainstay in the Pennsylvania firearms business. Dave and his wife Tara, rebuilt the company both physically and financially and it includes a modern state of the art indoor shooting range, 13000 square feet of retail space and a vibrant and growing e-commerce business. Visit our Web site at: Trop Gun Shop
Mark Bansner, a formally trained gunsmith with a world-class reputation under the business name of Bansner's Ultimate Rifles, has been building state-of-the-art bolt action rifles on a variety of actions for 30 years. Many of you know about or own one of Mark's rifles and his reputation as a riflesmith is first order. Approximately 20 years ago Mark purchased a synthetic stock making company, High Tech Specialties, and over the course of many years continually refined the hand laid fiberglass stock to enhance accuracy, pointability and durability. Mark used these stocks in the production of his Ultimate Rifles as well as making them available on the secondary market to customers via the High Tech Specialties Web site and through Brownells. Mark achieved a worldwide reputation for producing outstanding firearms for the hunting and shooting community.
In 2013 David Dunn purchased the rights to produce and market the 704 action in its entirety from Ed Brown under Trop Gun Shop business. This purchase included all of Ed's drawing and engineering diagrams, spare parts and specialized machinery with full rights to produce and sell the 704 action and rifles based on this action.
In early 2013, David also teamed up in a business agreement to purchase Bansner's Ultimate rifles and High Tech Specialties stock works from Mark. This purchased included all of Mark's business and Mark remains on the management team as President of our manufacturing division. They subsequently formed a new company, Legendary Arms Work, with a goal to produce an American made, state-of-the-art production style bolt action rifle at a competitive price point. It is our company�s view that high quality rifles can be built in America with all the features shooters seek. We feel we can move away from the current industry path of producing cheaper and cheaper injection molded, MIM or cast parts rifles in a race to the bottom. The joining of these three forces, The 704 action, Trop Gun Shop financial and manufacturing capabilities, and Mark Bansner custom firearms expertise, gave rise to Legendary Arms Works. The mission of the company is to produce a rifle of outstanding quality and accuracy that will appeal to the worldwide market at a price that every shooter can afford.
Over the past year Mark and his team have been diligently enhancing and making design modifications on the 704 action to get ready for production. No detail has been left out in this time consuming and expensive process. For example Mark and his gunsmiths spent nearly two full weeks adjusting the design for the 3 positions safety to get the timing, function and feel exactly right. We also have been ramping up a manufacturing and production facility for the stocks and rifle assembly and I have overseen the development of the LAWS Web site. Our company is located in Lancaster County Pennsylvania which is truly the birthplace of American rifle making dating back to the early 1700s and The Pennsylvania Rifle a fact that is not lost on those of us dedicated to the model 704. We formally launched the new company officially in December 2014 and have had outstanding success at the Dallas Safari Club and most recently announcing it at the 2015 SHOT Show where we hosted a writer�s event at the SHOT range day. Our rifles have been used by Craig Boddington in Africa, Canada and the United States and we have become the official rifle sponsor of his television show, The Boddington Experience. In addition, we have a sponsorship relationship with Freddy Harteis, The Hollywood Hunter, and Freddy is using our rifles now on a variety of hunts.
We are currently in late stage production of our three introductory models: The Closer, the Professional and The Big Five. Each of these models have a number of similarities including the M704 true controlled round feed action, a Timney trigger, stainless match grade barrels and a High Tech Specialties fiberglass stock. The rifles action has a strong similarity to a Remington 700 model with the round body to allow for easier bedding and will take 700 bottom metal. Our rifles include Weaver style scope bases on the Closer and Professional and Talley style bases on The Big Five. Complete details and descriptions as well as photographs of our rifles can be viewed at the Legendary Arms Works website: Legendary Arms Works
We are now moving into a full production mode with the hope to have rifles available in the March or April timeframe. For anyone who has been involved in building a firearms manufacturing facility, you can understand the monumental tasks and amount of work plus huge financial commitments that are required to undertake such an endeavor. The rifle actions are machined from 416 stainless steel on state of the art CNC machines. Currently we are producing two action lengths, the short action 308 size, and a long action 30-06 size that will handle standard magnum rounds such as the 300 Winchester and 375 H&H magnum. Our plans and ideas are many and include a true magnum sized action and eventually left handed configured actions. For the moment we are offering a rifles in a broad and novel variety of caliber options such as the 35 Whelen, 26 Nosler, and 6.5 Creedmoor etc. but are limiting stock color and Cerakote metal finish colors to allow us to get rifles out to our customers. At some point in the future we will begin again offering custom rifles similar to what Mark offered for many years. Our rifles come with a full lifetime guarantee for the life of the rifle not the owner and an accuracy guarantee. All the pertinent details can be found at the Legendary Arms Works website.
We would be pleased to answer any questions about the rifle and our production as we can but may beg for a bit of patience in us getting the rifles to the market. We waited until our production facility was well under way to announce the company to avoid the usual firearms industry new product announcement and significant time lag before availability. The rifle is truly 100 % American made, every piece of metal, spring, screw etc. is a 100% American made and we believe we have a price point that will pose a very significant challenge to our competitors. In addition we will make our Model 704 actions available to purchase to the gunsmith trade.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide insight into our company and the people that are driving at and we look forward to our success. Please visit our Website for more information.
Paul
"Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas" NRA Patron Member
I'll feign my "surprise",that it got VERY fhuqking quiet...VERY fhuqking fast. Laughing!
I enjoyed "Diligentia - Vis - Celeritas"...though it should read "Dumbfhuqkus Headupassis". Just saying. Hint.
Is this when/where I stand agog that you've ZERO fhuqking clue in regards to twist rate,throat geometry and COAL?!? Or might you be going FULL Secret Squirrel and about to regale the masses with your collective dumbfhuqkery summonsed via your version of "knowledge","experience" and "results"? Laughing!!!
You Drooling Clueless Dumbfhuqks are a hoot!
Again...PLEASE do not let the cat get your tongue,nor the couch your kchunt.
You "hard charging" "visionaries" are on fhuqking FIRE!!!
Laughing.......................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Brad, I do know that Bansner changed the weight specs on their stocks perhaps a year or so ago, adding a couple/three ounces. Perhaps a pm to Reed or an email to Reed or Mark will confirm actual current weights. Given the tone of some previous posts Reed may be hesitant to subject himself and his company to further insults on an open forum. Nothing wrong with the questions asked but how they were asked was way over the top.
We would be pleased to answer any questions about the rifle and our production as we can but may beg for a bit of patience in us getting the rifles to the market.
What's with the twist rates you chose?
Travis
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Welcome, and thank you for posting; the information is interesting.
One design point catches my eye from a safety perspective.
From this photo of the bolt on the website, it looks like the extractor undercuts almost all of one lug, and there appears to be a hole drilled through the bolt for a pin or screw to hold the extractor in line with the lugs. This bolt design seems like weak from a safety perspective.
Any more information or explanation regarding this design?
Hart in Pennsylvania used to use poured pillars made from Bisonite, then Marine-Tex for bedding the action. Like you said, very time consuming and not something you will see on a production rifle. Sounds like some folks would like to see these new rifles with a custom bedding job, Krieger barrel and maybe throw in a Jewell trigger too for $1500.
Cant be done...not today I don't think. Gotta be realistic.
Nothing wrong with the questions asked but how they were asked was way over the top.
Pat, my questions were polite.
Why Rick continues to allow Midget Mouth to inhabit this forum is beyond me, but I would think a business man could see past a frustrated little man from AK and answer legitimate questions, especially those of a past, and potential future, customer.
Banser didn't change their weights any time in the last ten years I'm aware of. Dober got an M70 this past fall and it's the same as the M70 I bought two and ten years ago.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Brad, to be clear I thought your questions were done in a respectful manner. They used to list their blanks at 21-22 ounces, now they are listed at 23-24 ounces. Like you, I like their blanks, a lot. I have used them on mausers and remington 700s. One on a mauser (FN actually) was a 35 whelen that finished up right at 8lbs and it did a great job of minimizing recoil. The ones I have finished always ended up at 25-26 ounces with a 1" decelerator on them. The last one was probably 3-4 years ago.
Nothing wrong with the questions asked but how they were asked was way over the top.
Pat, my questions were polite.
Why Rick continues to allow Midget Mouth to inhabit this forum is beyond me, but I would think a business man could see past a frustrated little man from AK and answer legitimate questions, especially those of a past, and potential future, customer.
Banser didn't change their weights any time in the last ten years I'm aware of. Dober got an M70 this past fall and it's the same as the M70 I bought two and ten years ago.
Brad(Whining Kchunt),
I DO enjoy your PERPETUAL Whining Kchuntfest on how Life ain't "fair". While I'll not speak for anyone/everyone else..I DO enjoy your Imaginary/Pretend Ignore and other Hissy Fits! mebbe quit again and Whine more?!? Laughing!!
Your realization that you are amongst THE dumbest of fhuqks,don't begin to do your Nothingness any "justice". Laughing!
DO tell about your "Boddington COAL latitudes" and "Hollywood Hunter throating"...you amazingly STUPID fhuqk!!! Don't cry in a corner,in your high-heels,when you could "suggest" your twist rate(s). Laffin'!!!
Here's to the sanctity of Imaginary Pretend Ignore and your version of having a FIRST "clue".
As an aside... who puts the spoon to your quivering lips?
The ONLY thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination,in no particular order. PLEASE find me "mistaken".
Laughing!.........
(addendum)
Salty,
PLEASE cite the "worse" twist rates you've "seen" and say a leetle sumptin' about boolits,while musing COAL and throating too.
Welcome, and thank you for posting; the information is interesting.
One design point catches my eye from a safety perspective.
From this photo of the bolt on the website, it looks like the extractor undercuts almost all of one lug, and there appears to be a hole drilled through the bolt for a pin or screw to hold the extractor in line with the lugs. This bolt design seems like weak from a safety perspective.
Any more information or explanation regarding this design?
Apologies for the delay in responding to questions, we are very busy trying to meet the demand. There are a number of questions related to various topics as well some specific poster questions.
Twist rates: I am pleased to tell you that after discussion with Mark and the gunsmithing team we will be changing the twist rate on the 243 to 1 in 9�. It will be reflected on the Web site next week during an update. In addition we are looking into all the other caliber twists to see if they too need �modernized�. For Steelhead, bloodworks, 4ager, darrenk75b, deflave and anyone else who questioned the 243 twist, we listened and changed. Please call the number on the LAWs Website to place your pre-order, we are ready.
Brad: Yes we do have a scale in the shop and all the stocks have and have had weights assigned to them on the High Tech Specialties Web site. As you stated in your post there has been no change to that Web site and the stock weights for a number of years. It is action dependent of course so the weighs are different. I weighed one of the stocks that we are using on the Legendary Arms Works rifles and it weighs 25 ounces, painted, with the aluminum bedding blocks and a Pachmayr Decelerator pad installed.
Stocks and Sales: We will continue to maintain the High Tech Specialties Web site and sell aftermarket stocks there as available. As available means that we will be focusing initially in the stocks for the Legendary Arms Works rifles and fill in the other stocks in production as we can. Mark had over 30 molds including most in left hand. The construction of the stocks has not changed in either the High Tech aftermarkets or the Legendary Arms Works stocks with the exception that the LAWS stocks will now have the aluminum bedding construction. The stocks are hand laid with multiple layers of fiberglass cloth (I believe 8 ounce weight) and the same high strength epoxy materials that Mark has always used. We will be broadening the line late 2015.
With regard to the cheek piece-The Big Five model will have the fine line cheek piece for now. We are discussing the changes to production needed if we want to use that cheek piece on the Closer and Professional. There is some handwork involved which adds to production time but is sure looks nice I will agree. Stay tuned on this one.
More answers and comments to follow. Thank you to everyone who had given us feedback on the rifles.
Ron Spomer reviewed the rifle with Mark Bansner at SHOT and we have posted a video on our Web site here:
Very cool Reed glad to see you guys are eyes wide open and able to fine tune things on the go.
bob'- As best I know rifle components can't be shipped out of the US to individuals. US H L security requires a complicated to receive permit for export and its only issued to approved Importers (dealers) abroad who also have to go through a lot of red tape. Something like that anyway...
Again, how many folks that are going to buy these rifles are going to give a crap about 105 and 115 grain bullets? These are HUNTING rifles, not match rifles.
Again, how many folks that are going to buy these rifles are going to give a crap about 105 and 115 grain bullets? These are HUNTING rifles, not match rifles.
I give a crap, and that's why I'm putting custom tubes on rifles. As a consumer there are few companies offering an off the shelf rifle with the features I want. Companies like Matrix, Berger, CEB, and GS all make hunting bullets that are better in faster twist in 6mm calibers than 1:9. The only 115 I know that will stabilize in a 1:8 is the DTAC and I'd use them on pronghorn, coyotes, and other vermin.
I'd love to see a fast twist .257 & .277 as well at least a 1:9 to take better advantage of the bullets being offered today. They aren't making bullets any shorter and while the old staples work well, there are plenty of guys out there like me who experiment. My question is what does it hurt to run a fast twist?
The 280AI was immediately interesting until I noticed the 1/10" twist on the spec sheet. Move that to a 1/8.5 or 1/9 at the absolute slowest. Nice looking rifles. Will keep an eye on your progress. More options only help the consumer.
Trends are trends and since the first mono-metal Barnes bullets in hunting guns and 69,77, and 80 grain Sierra Matchkings in AR's shooters have become interested in sufficient twist for long bullets!
Not trying to be disrespectful, or hard to get along with, but do you think that the few folks on this board that are whining about twist rates really represent the shooting public as a whole? Because that's who these rifles are marketed to. At the price point they are coming in at, they aren't much more expensive than a Winchester EW or a Kimber Montana. If folks that hand load want rifles with custom twist rates to suit their favorite bullets, then there are plenty of custom rifle makers out there that are doing that kind of thing......just not at this price point. I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles? It just seems childish to me I guess. We should be welcoming these guys with open arms, not trying to micro manage and second guess. It takes a lot of guts for someone from a gun company to step into the lions den that is this forum. I for one appreciate them coming on here and taking the time to communicate with us.
Why not market to the "rifle" guys? If the others aren't in the know, what would it hurt? It's not like faster twists have a negative impact in the cartridges mentioned...
I enjoy handguns and I really like shotguns,...but I love rifles!
I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles?
The rifle buying majority is more interested in sub $500 rifles, you might recognize this if you pay attention to where the major companies are focusing their attention. A $1000+ hunting rifle isn't something average Joe hunter is going to buy. So that leaves the rifle loonies who want faster twists to push the limits.
Not trying to be disrespectful, or hard to get along with, but do you think that the few folks on this board that are whining about twist rates really represent the shooting public as a whole? Because that's who these rifles are marketed to. At the price point they are coming in at, they aren't much more expensive than a Winchester EW or a Kimber Montana. If folks that hand load want rifles with custom twist rates to suit their favorite bullets, then there are plenty of custom rifle makers out there that are doing that kind of thing......just not at this price point. I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles? It just seems childish to me I guess. We should be welcoming these guys with open arms, not trying to micro manage and second guess. It takes a lot of guts for someone from a gun company to step into the lions den that is this forum. I for one appreciate them coming on here and taking the time to communicate with us.
I agree. This obsession with BC. I can understand having a rifle built with LR in mind, but does every rifle with every load need to be 700-yard capable?
I suppose it gives people something to talk about.
We truly appreciate the feedback and comments on our rifles. This forum is a unique set of expertise that we value. I would like to add a few thoughts and opinions.
First as I have stated we want to build rifles that are 100% American made and of the highest quality and accuracy at a price point that make them competitive. We got tired of seeing “the race to the bottom” in rifle production by many manufacturers. It is self-defeating and in my opinion a self-cannibalization process…where does it end? While there is certainly nothing wrong with a rifle with an injection molded stock, cast aluminum bed block and plain tubular action selling for under $500…even closer to under $300, it is not what the knowledgeable shooting public wants in our opinion. Those rifles may serve a market, perhaps the beginner or someone on a tight budget, but eventually consumers who keep their interest in firearms and especially those who are knowledgeable like this forum seek more. That is the market we want as JasonH and taylorforce1 opine and we believe others will agree. Our rifles sell for slightly more that many standard big company production rifles and we think we can convince customers to consider these rifles seriously. The cost difference is not that significant and is monumentally different when you compare features, quality and pedigree.
Every product on the market and perhaps especially true in the firearms market, represents a compromise of some sort. We will be offering true custom rifles again where you can get what you want and the price will reflect it. The Legendary Arms Works rifles then in fact have to be offered with some compromises in reality. We are continually looking at where that takes us to balance the features offered, our production capabilities, speed and of course price. Feedback like we get here and other high use forums give us the contact with the market that we seek. Twists rates are important, no question. There is a move to shoot longer, heavier bullets in the industry especially for the long range aficionados and we understand that…many of us at the company shoot rifles and cartridges in that sphere too. We started with what are considered to be “industry standards” and will go from there. You have seen that we are being responsive with the twist rate change for the 243, so I think we have demonstrated our commitment to change but our decisions will be driven by data which may include customer opinion as well as technical and engineering research and will be done with care and thought.
Thank you the Forum to allow us to participate, we welcome you input.
Your research should bear out the information that a .22-250 and a .243(as well as other chamberings) will perform better across all spectrums with a faster twist rate.A 1:12 twisted .22-250 is only a "C" hair better than 1:14 companies are using as standard. A wagon with wooden wheels was once standard transportation but it's now history due to knowledge learned and modern engineering There are two customer bases you will be marketing towards and potentially selling to, those that are savvy and those that have not a clue,If you cater towards those that are savvy you grab that market share as well as the clueless,it doesn't work the other way around. Choose wisely and good luck
Apologies for the delay in responding to questions, we are very busy trying to meet the demand. There are a number of questions related to various topics as well some specific poster questions.
Twist rates: I am pleased to tell you that after discussion with Mark and the gunsmithing team we will be changing the twist rate on the 243 to 1 in 9�. It will be reflected on the Web site next week during an update. In addition we are looking into all the other caliber twists to see if they too need �modernized�. For Steelhead, bloodworks, 4ager, darrenk75b, deflave and anyone else who questioned the 243 twist, we listened and changed. Please call the number on the LAWs Website to place your pre-order, we are ready.
Brad: Yes we do have a scale in the shop and all the stocks have and have had weights assigned to them on the High Tech Specialties Web site. As you stated in your post there has been no change to that Web site and the stock weights for a number of years. It is action dependent of course so the weighs are different. I weighed one of the stocks that we are using on the Legendary Arms Works rifles and it weighs 25 ounces, painted, with the aluminum bedding blocks and a Pachmayr Decelerator pad installed.
Stocks and Sales: We will continue to maintain the High Tech Specialties Web site and sell aftermarket stocks there as available. As available means that we will be focusing initially in the stocks for the Legendary Arms Works rifles and fill in the other stocks in production as we can. Mark had over 30 molds including most in left hand. The construction of the stocks has not changed in either the High Tech aftermarkets or the Legendary Arms Works stocks with the exception that the LAWS stocks will now have the aluminum bedding construction. The stocks are hand laid with multiple layers of fiberglass cloth (I believe 8 ounce weight) and the same high strength epoxy materials that Mark has always used. We will be broadening the line late 2015.
With regard to the cheek piece-The Big Five model will have the fine line cheek piece for now. We are discussing the changes to production needed if we want to use that cheek piece on the Closer and Professional. There is some handwork involved which adds to production time but is sure looks nice I will agree. Stay tuned on this one.
More answers and comments to follow. Thank you to everyone who had given us feedback on the rifles.
Ron Spomer reviewed the rifle with Mark Bansner at SHOT and we have posted a video on our Web site here:
Do NOT get rid of the bottom metal! Thats the most absurd suggestion I've heard. To me, it is an inconvenience to have to cycle the rounds just to empty the magazine. Manufacturers usually do that for one of two reasons, either to save weight while making a mountain type rifle, or to cut cost in order to make a cheap rifle. I don't think Legendary Arms Works is trying to do either of those things.
I don't think that "hundreds" of people have stated that the twist rates are too slow. A few dedicated, hardcore "rifle loonies" on this board seem to think that everyone out there is rolling their own ammo and shooting small calibers at extreme distances. That simply is not the case. While there are plenty of awesome long range rifles, scopes and cartridges being sold, most of the people that buy them can't shoot them worth a s$&@. They read about the latest greatest thing in a magazine, and they buy it so they can show it off at hunting camp. I have no doubt that some of the folks on this forum that are pushing for the faster twist rates are extremely good riflemen. Heck, I'm sure most of you could probably outshoot me. However the fact remains, that the vast majority of the folks buying rifles today, even middle of the road rifles, simply can't shoot them to their full potential. I would be willing to bet that if you walked into most gunshops during deer season and asked people which twist rate they prefer in a given caliber, they would stare at you like you had a phallus protruding from your forehead. If you want mainstream rifle makers to offer a faster twist rate for a .243, go convince the ammo manufacturers to offer factory loaded ammo with 105-115 grain hunting bullets. I could be very wrong here, but I think that handloading is a dying hobby. Perhaps it's just the area I live in, but most of the guys that handload around here are in the "over 50 crowd".
So, I said all that to say this. Yes, LAW could cater to the 5% of the market that is screaming for faster twist rates, and it probably wouldn't have an adverse effect on anything. However, if they choose not to, they shouldn't be badgered and condemned for it. The fact remains that IF they can turn out a quality rifle, they are going to have some folks at the big companies sitting down and discussing how to improve their product lines. These LAW rifles are A LOT of rifle for the money. Or at least they appear to be at this point.
Thanks again to LAW for jumping into the fire so to speak!
The 1:9 will allow the 105 hpbt and perhaps the amax, but my preference would be to shoot the 105 Berger, which would require 1:8. Still, these do seem to offer much for the price
Do NOT get rid of the bottom metal! Thats the most absurd suggestion I've heard. To me, it is an inconvenience to have to cycle the rounds just to empty the magazine. Manufacturers usually do that for one of two reasons, either to save weight while making a mountain type rifle, or to cut cost in order to make a cheap rifle. I don't think Legendary Arms Works is trying to do either of those things.
I don't think that "hundreds" of people have stated that the twist rates are too slow. A few dedicated, hardcore "rifle loonies" on this board seem to think that everyone out there is rolling their own ammo and shooting small calibers at extreme distances. That simply is not the case. While there are plenty of awesome long range rifles, scopes and cartridges being sold, most of the people that buy them can't shoot them worth a s$&@. They read about the latest greatest thing in a magazine, and they buy it so they can show it off at hunting camp. I have no doubt that some of the folks on this forum that are pushing for the faster twist rates are extremely good riflemen. Heck, I'm sure most of you could probably outshoot me. However the fact remains, that the vast majority of the folks buying rifles today, even middle of the road rifles, simply can't shoot them to their full potential. I would be willing to bet that if you walked into most gunshops during deer season and asked people which twist rate they prefer in a given caliber, they would stare at you like you had a phallus protruding from your forehead. If you want mainstream rifle makers to offer a faster twist rate for a .243, go convince the ammo manufacturers to offer factory loaded ammo with 105-115 grain hunting bullets. I could be very wrong here, but I think that handloading is a dying hobby. Perhaps it's just the area I live in, but most of the guys that handload around here are in the "over 50 crowd".
So, I said all that to say this. Yes, LAW could cater to the 5% of the market that is screaming for faster twist rates, and it probably wouldn't have an adverse effect on anything. However, if they choose not to, they shouldn't be badgered and condemned for it. The fact remains that IF they can turn out a quality rifle, they are going to have some folks at the big companies sitting down and discussing how to improve their product lines. These LAW rifles are A LOT of rifle for the money. Or at least they appear to be at this point.
Thanks again to LAW for jumping into the fire so to speak!
I bet you're the bright one in the family, you silly twit.
If, as you say, so many don't care about twist, then why the [bleep] would they be bothered if it was a 1-8"? That way you cater to those that WANT a faster twist and those that don't have the first [bleep] clue.
Here's another hint, 55's shoot just as well in a 1-8" twist 243 as do 105's.
Why do you guys think that a manufacturer should cater to what YOU want? These are not, "Legendary Arms Works, designed by members of 24 hour campfire". These are production grade hunting rifles, and not very expensive rifles at that. These are middle of the road as far as price goes......perhaps even the low end of the middle market. These are not even "semi-custom" hunting rifles, as your only options are the caliber. These are simply a new twist on production grade hunting rifles. The stock is better than the bell and carlsons that most $1000-1500 rifles are using these days, and the action is something different. The last time the Ed Brown action was on the market, it was over $3000 if I remember correctly.
I certainly don't mind you guys having an opinion, and I'm not discounting the fact that you are making some valid points. However, to come on here and say that the company doesn't know what they are doing because you don't agree with the twist rate for a few calibers is a profoundly stupid statement. The arrogance of some of the folks on this board is almost unbelievable sometimes. Even if you think that you do know it all, please don't come on here and act like it. Some of you guys act like the manufacturer is stupid for not listening to your ideas about rifle design, again pretty laughable. When you pony up the money and become an investor in the venture, perhaps they will give you a seat at the design table.
I feel as though they are being very responsive by changing the .243 twist rate to 1:9.
At any rate, I have ordered one of the "closer" models in .243. Im waiting for someone from LAW to contact my dealer about payment and production schedules. Is it a gamble, yes. However I think it's a pretty safe bet that the rifles are going to be very nice.
If you pulled up to their house with a dump truck load of money, we have some folks here that would bitch and moan because it wasn't stacked and counted.
tedthorn, I would say that $1500 is absolutely middle of the road. Go take a look at Blaser, Steyr, Kilamanjaro Rifles, Jarrett Rifles, Dakota Rifles, Nesika, Proof Research, Cooper, Lazzeroni.......the list goes on. You are going to burn $3000-5000 with most of those brands, and $15,000-20,000 with at least one of them.
Granted, some of them are more custom than production, but when you consider what LAW is offering, it starts to sound like a downright bargain.
I for one am sick of walking into a gunshop full of black plastic wonders. I don't give a darn how well they shoot......they are cosmetic abominations IMHO. I appreciate craftsmanship and innovation. I don't view a rifle as a tool. It is a work of art. That's why most of my hunting rifles wear nice walnut stocks. However there are certainly situations that call for synthetic stocks, and if I'm going to buy one, I certainly don't want it to look like Rubbermaids attempt at rifle design.......Ruger American, Winchester XPR, Remington 783, etc. That is why I have chosen to spend my hard earned money on a LAW rifle. In the end, there are plenty of choices for everyone. That's the great thing about the gun culture here in the United States. We are spolied rotten with awesome firearms!
GregW, yes sir. If all a man wants is a "tool" to get the job done, why would he look any further than the weatherby vanguard, ruger american, remington 700 sps, etc? All of those rifles will take a beating, and will probably be accurate enough to satisfy most shooters. Truly, the bottom end of the market is better than it has ever been, and the rifles in the $500-1000 price range will certainly do anything that a man needs to do.
However I appreciate the backstory behind companies such as LAW. The combination of Mark Bansners know how, his High Tech Specialities stocks, and the Ed Brown designed action. I enjoy the minutiae like that. I'm sure a lot of folks couldn't care less, but again, different strokes for different folks.
GregW, I fail to see how it matters where and how someone hunts. If all you are looking for is a lightweight, rugged, accurate "tool", there are plenty of sub $1000 rifles that will fit the bill nicely. Why would you even consider a more expensive rifle when the majority of the cheap ones shoot sub-moa, are around 7 pounds, some less, and you could run them over with a truck and not hurt them much?
However, to answer your question, I live in NC, and do most of my hunting in the central and western part of the state. I'll be headed to Africa for plains game in 2016. No, Ive never hunted out west where you live.
PH's love clients with pretty rifles not viewed as a tool
In my hunt report I pointed out that my 20 year old scratched up and rusty but proven Remington 700 in super simple 30-06 was my perfect rifle for hard hunting.....
Some would say they wouldn't drop that kind of $$ and hunt with a utility rifle.....funny
I like my rifles but I hunt to hunt....not to pet and admire a rifle
I'm in the "my rifle is a tool" class and performance is it's first and most important job
GregW, I fail to see how it matters where and how someone hunts. If all you are looking for is a lightweight, rugged, accurate "tool", there are plenty of sub $1000 rifles that will fit the bill nicely. Why would you even consider a more expensive rifle when the majority of the cheap ones shoot sub-moa, are around 7 pounds, some less, and you could run them over with a truck and not hurt them much?
However, to answer your question, I live in NC, and do most of my hunting in the central and western part of the state. I'll be headed to Africa for plains game in 2016. No, Ive never hunted out west where you live.
I'll be paying more attention to you. If you've hunted North Carolina all your life then you know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING.
So, if I'm hearing you guys correctly, it's not ok to purchase a rifle just because you want to? And it's not ok to want to hunt with nice looking walnut rifles? That's good to know, I've been doing it wrong for 20 years! I'm glad you guys have enlightened me!
GregW, could you please explain how any of the cheap rifles I mentioned will not kill animals west if the Mississippi? Or how LAW rifles are not suitable for you and your clients to use? This is starting to get pretty laughable.
Perhaps If you guys really want someone to give a crap about your opinions, you should try being a little bit less arrogant. Just because you have existed for many years, and shot many rifles, and killed many animals does not make you an expert on all things firearm related.
Not trying to be disrespectful, or hard to get along with, but do you think that the few folks on this board that are whining about twist rates really represent the shooting public as a whole? Because that's who these rifles are marketed to. At the price point they are coming in at, they aren't much more expensive than a Winchester EW or a Kimber Montana. If folks that hand load want rifles with custom twist rates to suit their favorite bullets, then there are plenty of custom rifle makers out there that are doing that kind of thing......just not at this price point. I guess my point is this, why make such a big deal over something that probably matters so little to the MAJORITY of the folks that will be buying these rifles? It just seems childish to me I guess. We should be welcoming these guys with open arms, not trying to micro manage and second guess. It takes a lot of guts for someone from a gun company to step into the lions den that is this forum. I for one appreciate them coming on here and taking the time to communicate with us.
Slow twists worked great for a lot of years but they greatly limit the versatility of a modern production rifle.
Travis
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
Wow steelhead, you really are a super nice guy aren't you? Perhaps you could impart some of your vast knowledge to us? I haven't seen you do anything except sling [bleep]. It's amazing how arrogant you guys are. Absolutely unwilling to hear any opinion except your own.
Your research should bear out the information that a .22-250 and a .243(as well as other chamberings) will perform better across all spectrums with a faster twist rate.A 1:12 twisted .22-250 is only a "C" hair better than 1:14 companies are using as standard. A wagon with wooden wheels was once standard transportation but it's now history due to knowledge learned and modern engineering There are two customer bases you will be marketing towards and potentially selling to, those that are savvy and those that have not a clue,If you cater towards those that are savvy you grab that market share as well as the clueless,it doesn't work the other way around. Choose wisely and good luck
Nailed it here.... Sell to those looking for (and planning on taking advantage of) the fast twist and to those who don't care one way or the other...or just to those who don't care. I can't find a reason to limit those you want to market to.
I say this after just rebarreling from a 1/10 to a 1/8 .243.
Edited to add: Big thumbs up on listening to folks here. You can be "industry standard" or you can be better. Sounds like you're shooting for much better.
Do NOT get rid of the bottom metal! Thats the most absurd suggestion I've heard. To me, it is an inconvenience to have to cycle the rounds just to empty the magazine. Manufacturers usually do that for one of two reasons, either to save weight while making a mountain type rifle, or to cut cost in order to make a cheap rifle. I don't think Legendary Arms Works is trying to do either of those things.
So, I said all that to say this. Yes, LAW could cater to the 5% of the market that is screaming for faster twist rates, and it probably wouldn't have an adverse effect on anything. However, if they choose not to, they shouldn't be badgered and condemned for it. The fact remains that IF they can turn out a quality rifle, they are going to have some folks at the big companies sitting down and discussing how to improve their product lines. These LAW rifles are A LOT of rifle for the money. Or at least they appear to be at this point.
Thanks again to LAW for jumping into the fire so to speak!
As stated, I would not get rid of that BDL style bottom metal for the reasons already stated. Blind mags are a great way for manufacturers to save money and really benefit the few who are looking to save perhaps a couple of ounces. Just pull the BDL floor plate from your run of the mill 700 and you'll quickly see what I mean. Their aluminum floor plate weighs practically nothing.
As far as a cheek piece is concerned, I'd give serious consideration to make all of the stocks with this feature. More production rifles have them than don't have them especially at this price point. As far as the blind magazine option is concerned, remember the words of Dick Davis regarding the costs involved in changing a stock mold. It is very costly. I replaced the factory bottom metal on my 700 with a Williams steel unit and that thing, while beautifully made, probably added 4-5 ounces more than the cheap aluminum factory BDL unit. I'll bet the LAW unit weighs and ounce or two at most.
There are two customer bases you will be marketing towards and potentially selling to, those that are savvy and those that have not a clue,If you cater towards those that are savvy you grab that market share as well as the clueless,it doesn't work the other way around. Choose wisely and good luck
Nailed it here.... Sell to those looking for (and planning on taking advantage of) the fast twist and to those who don't care one way or the other...or just to those who don't care. I can't find a reason to limit those you want to market to.
I say this after just rebarreling from a 1/10 to a 1/8 .243.
Edited to add: Big thumbs up on listening to folks here. You can be "industry standard" or you can be better. Sounds like you're shooting for much better.
I agree that was probably the best post explaining everything most of us are feeling. I know that I won't be buying any production .224 or .243 caliber rifle that doesn't have at least an 8 twist, unless I'm going to use it as as donor action. I don't see the big deal using a 1:8 unless their barrel maker doesn't make one, it doesn't add any extra cost.
I'm grateful that someone has reached out from a manufacturer and asked what people want in a rifle and I respect that greatly. However, to win my business you have to offer something that I can't get elsewhere. If I can't get the twist I want in a production rifle, I have to order a barrel and take it to a gunsmith to get the rifle I want.
If I want a .243 and not worried about shooting anything but old industry standard bullets, I'm going to buy a much cheaper rifle and pocket the rest of the money for optics. That said, I'd be willing to pay extra to get an 1:8 twist barreled rifle, especially if I can pick it up without the wait times I have on building a custom waiting on barrels, stocks and gunsmiths.
Rich, like I said some people like the blind magazine option, but these guys are trying to keep costs down and making a new mold is costly. I think, and I may be wrong, that Dick Davis of McMillan, said that the total cost to make a new mold was close to 20 grand by the time you broke down all the metal pieces and assembled them for a new mold. These guys are trying to be competitive as far as pricing is concerned and I'd bet that more people would like to see a BDL style bottom metal than not. Same thinking I'm sure went into the twist rates in that way more people use factory ammo than the folks you see here that are probably by and large hand loaders. So they (LAW) roll the dice and try to please the bulk of the market and like Mr. Reed also stated, they will eventually offer a custom line as he stated that would be more like what Mark Bansner offered with his custom rifles.
You STUPID fhuqkers are a riot and you couldn't knock the new offa used pair of boots. Now the Epic Hilarity is in your oblivious declaration,that you and your MartMart ways,are 100% clueless in regards to twist rate's literal bearing and that is somehow a default "Trump Card"?!? Joe Average sure as fhuqk ain't very bright,as you incessantly attest and the profundity of your Dumbfhuqktitude is welllllllllll beyond UBER in it's volume and pitch. Tough to beat a high-pitched nasal whine for oblivious hilarity. Congratulations?!? Laughing!
It is funnier than fhuqk that you MartMart fhuqks are swooned by Stupidity,Goat Fhuqks and AMAZINGLY stupid ideas. Read that again. Now one more time. Points awarded for being unable to connect a single dot,even after a trio of attempts. Laughing!
Now if a Crippled Lug,Goat Fhuqk twisted POS,that handles like a railroad tie is your version of "good"...you REALLY should keep such secrets to yourself,because it is beyond glaring in Dumbfhuqktitude. Kudos for being stumped with a blind mag too. Laughing! The only thing you stupid fhuqkers shoot is your mouths and Imaginations. Bless your heart.
"Luckily" for you and your ilk,you get to laude the sweet "satisfactions" that are your's,in being an amazingly stupid fhuqk. Mebbe add merit by making mention how the masses are so incredibly astute,so as to grant your boy Obama both the Popular and Electoral vote. You are in sooooooooooo fhuqking far over your pointy head,it's just simply a shame you can't muster the 17 IQ points requisite,to savvy. Laughing!
I know...I know,you are comforted via the "endorsement" of The Hollywood Hunter and Boddington,due their incredible "insight" as to what makes a rifle tick. Re-laughing!
So here's to the unbridled hilarity of you doing your best(and it is ONLY fhuqking funny,because you are doing your BEST!) and the inability for you to have even the faintest of fhuqking clues,as you talk out your ass while licking windows.
Mechanics matter,despite your being well shy of the grey matter to fathom something so fhuqking obvious. The harmony of twist,throat and COAL is what makes a rifle shine and less those stars being aligned,heavy concession(s) are purposely crafted into the pending Goat Fhuqk. Hint.
Now none too "surprisingly",the poor Boob OP who "offers" said Goat Fhuqk "particulars" has gone wayyyyyyyyyyyy outta her way to step aside of all germane mechanical specs. Mainly because she too is totally fhuqking clueless and wayyyyyyyyyyy over her head,though the "names" dropped were/are especially fhuqking hilarious and will certainly give YOU the warm/fuzzy. Laughing! You "lucky" bitch!!!
Twist in reserve,throat to COAL latitude and bells cain't be made to stop ringing. Read that again. Now one more time. You are now a double "Ace",you dumbfhuqk. Laughing!
I'm REALLY enjoying the notion that you "luckily" stumbled onto a steaming pile of schit,placed in a ZipLoc and are now trying to brag how your INCREDIBLE Fhuqking Stupidity is gonna nudge you to cut a check for same. What next...are you going to tell everyone what a dick tastes like?!? Laughing!
You "hard chargers" are a fhuqking hoot and this is UBER fhuqking hilarity!
P.S. and by the way a true 9" will fling 105 Hyper Boogers at sealevel,though a spout cited to be 9",that ain't...won't. Re-hint. A cleaning rod will answer all questions/concerns and in nano-seconds. Best part being,you cain't know what any of that means. Laughing!
Nothing funnier than a buncha Window Lickers trying to "design" a rifle,then patting themselves on the back and trying to convince one another that the STUPIDITY was "founded" in "merit". Jeezus fhuqking Gwadd THAT is fhuqking funny!
Just oh soooooooooooooo fhuqking WOW.
Again what is COAL latitude and how are these pieces of schit throated...if only to add to the copious hilarity? Or knock it out of The Park and hang a pic of yourself,just to reiterate how mechanical specs are "moot".
RDFinn, I think you just said what I was trying to say with my earlier posts. I think it's awesome that any manufacturer would come on here and be willing to talk to folks about their product. That in itself says a lot about the folks running the company. I sincerely hope they are successful in the marketplace, blind mag or floor plate, and whatever twist rate they decide on. The rifles will be nice either way.
I agree. The guy comes here and tries to promote his product and take the time to answer questions and honestly take suggestions on how to improve his rifles and in return gets a lot of grief, but still stays for feedback, speaks volumes for his company and what he's trying to accomplish. I wish these guys nothing but good will and hope he sells a ton of rifles.
Again, how many folks that are going to buy these rifles are going to give a crap about 105 and 115 grain bullets? These are HUNTING rifles, not match rifles.
You begin it Ginger with your all knowing attitude.
I think they should follow your lead on everything, that way they are guaranteed to fail.
Methinks they are bright enough to not have you on R&D
There is a TON of advice here that this new company needs to consider and even though he's quite poetic and long winded boxer is right when he brings up coal and throat.....twist can't be ignored
There is a TON of advice here that this new company needs to consider and even though he's quite poetic and long winded boxer is right when he brings up coal and throat.....twist can't be ignored
If your going to build it.......do it right
Yes, exactly.
Case in point. Forbes has a GENEROUS COAL with their 3" magazine on a short action platform. Of course they gave their 243 a 1-10" twist. So now you have the magazine, but not the twist.
Ruger got the twist right with the RAR, but the factory magazine can't accept a round loaded with a 75gr Amax.
I don't suppose there would be one. If they see fit to go for 1:8 I'm sure it will make a very small number of shooters happy.
I guess what irritates me is just the general attitude towards LAW, and the arrogance exhibited on this forum in general. Some of the insulting comments that were made in the beginning, and all of it stemmed from nothing more than a disagreement about twist rate? It seemed as though some of you were trying to say that the people at LAW are somehow inferior to you because they made different decisions than you would have about THEIR products.
How many folks on this forum own their own firearms company? How many of you run your own gunsmith business? How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
If you didn't answer "I do" to any of those questions, I'm not sure why you think that your opinion actually matters. If you did answer in the affirmative, then you might have a leg to stand on as far as someone who matters paying attention to what you have to say. I will go ahead and admit that I am not in one of those categories. Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
In the end, this forum is supposed to be a place for good natured discussion about a passion that we all share. Instead it seems to always end up with mud slinging and name calling, and arrogance. It seems that some folks on here take themselves way too seriously. Being a guide or outfitter or a competition shooter or a dedicated hand loader is fine, but it certainly doesn't mean that you know enough to tell a company how they should and should not make their products. Get over yourselves.
At least I have enough sense to realize that I am just a piss ant in the grand scheme of things, as are most of the people on this forum. Our opinions are just that, opinions. if you want rifles built your way, either come up with a few thousand dollars and call a custom maker, or come up with a few million and start your own company. If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
I don't suppose there would be one. If they see fit to go for 1:8 I'm sure it will make a very small number of shooters happy.
I guess what irritates me is just the general attitude towards LAW, and the arrogance exhibited on this forum in general. Some of the insulting comments that were made in the beginning, and all of it stemmed from nothing more than a disagreement about twist rate? It seemed as though some of you were trying to say that the people at LAW are somehow inferior to you because they made different decisions than you would have about THEIR products.
How many folks on this forum own their own firearms company? How many of you run your own gunsmith business? How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
If you didn't answer "I do" to any of those questions, I'm not sure why you think that your opinion actually matters. If you did answer in the affirmative, then you might have a leg to stand on as far as someone who matters paying attention to what you have to say. I will go ahead and admit that I am not in one of those categories. Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
In the end, this forum is supposed to be a place for good natured discussion about a passion that we all share. Instead it seems to always end up with mud slinging and name calling, and arrogance. It seems that some folks on here take themselves way too seriously. Being a guide or outfitter or a competition shooter or a dedicated hand loader is fine, but it certainly doesn't mean that you know enough to tell a company how they should and should not make their products. Get over yourselves.
At least I have enough sense to realize that I am just a piss ant in the grand scheme of things, as are most of the people on this forum. Our opinions are just that, opinions. if you want rifles built your way, either come up with a few thousand dollars and call a custom maker, or come up with a few million and start your own company. If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
A lot of wasted bandwidth and bluster to say you were wrong You did get one part right....
The only arrogance I see is from a guy who has likely tree stand or blind hunted his whole life who thinks rifle specs do not matter, and who thinks him speaking for the general public matters. Speaking of pot and kettle.
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
I don't suppose there would be one. If they see fit to go for 1:8 I'm sure it will make a very small number of shooters happy.
I guess what irritates me is just the general attitude towards LAW, and the arrogance exhibited on this forum in general. Some of the insulting comments that were made in the beginning, and all of it stemmed from nothing more than a disagreement about twist rate? It seemed as though some of you were trying to say that the people at LAW are somehow inferior to you because they made different decisions than you would have about THEIR products.
How many folks on this forum own their own firearms company? How many of you run your own gunsmith business? How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
If you didn't answer "I do" to any of those questions, I'm not sure why you think that your opinion actually matters. If you did answer in the affirmative, then you might have a leg to stand on as far as someone who matters paying attention to what you have to say. I will go ahead and admit that I am not in one of those categories. Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
In the end, this forum is supposed to be a place for good natured discussion about a passion that we all share. Instead it seems to always end up with mud slinging and name calling, and arrogance. It seems that some folks on here take themselves way too seriously. Being a guide or outfitter or a competition shooter or a dedicated hand loader is fine, but it certainly doesn't mean that you know enough to tell a company how they should and should not make their products. Get over yourselves.
At least I have enough sense to realize that I am just a piss ant in the grand scheme of things, as are most of the people on this forum. Our opinions are just that, opinions. if you want rifles built your way, either come up with a few thousand dollars and call a custom maker, or come up with a few million and start your own company. If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
Quite a lot to say.....
I however will keep it short
This company won't be around in 5 years if they want to build $1500 rifles that a company in York already builds for 500 less....
Please tell me where I can buy a proprietary bolt action in a high tech specialties stock with a timney trigger and ceracoated metal for $1000? I want one!
Therefore, I can give my opinions on here all day long, but I don't actually expect anyone from a firearms company to take it seriously. If I owned my own firearms company that's the first group of people I would listen to........firearms ENTHUSISTS on a friggin forum......yeah right.
If you want your opinion to matter, go out and make a name for yourself in the industry......otherwise don't get butt hurt when the folks with money that run the companies don't give two [bleep] about your "opinion".
Well I imagine you wouldn't stay in business long if you don't listen to the people that you want to buy your product. I'm grateful that Reed has came on here to announce the product that his company LAW is soon to release. Reed's company has a chance to listen to the consumer and make some changes before the rifle hits full production.
Originally Posted by JasonH
Please tell me where I can buy a proprietary bolt action in a high tech specialties stock with a timney trigger and ceracoated metal for $1000? I want one!
I can buy a new Forbes rifle for at least $200 less, more if I hunt around a little. LAW is going to be competing with Kimber and Forbes with their rifles. Why not take this opportunity to offer something that neither of these companies are offering? Their Closer rifle while not heavy starts out a roughly full pound heavier than the Kimber Montana or Forbes rifle, so they need to offer something that the others don't to grab a market share.
No thanks, not my cup o tea. Don't like the stock on the kimber and it's not cerakoted. But like I said earlier, to each their own.
As far as the Forbes, I've not been impressed with the reviews I've read on this and other forums. I would go NULA before I would go Forbes. And perhaps LAW will market a ultra lightweight mountain rifle down the road. I don't think they are trying to compete with Forbes and kimber as much as say Winchester and montana rifle company and Nosler.
As far as not standing out from the crowd, what do you make of the Ed brown 704 action and the high tech specialities stock? A buddy of mine had a high tech specialities stock on a rifle awhile back, and it was much nicer than the bell and carlsons that most manufacturers use IMHO.
I guess you meant Yonkers NY. I like the Montana a lot and it does offer one hell of lot for the money. Most of them appear to be pretty accurate for a fly weight rig but they don't have an accuracy promise so if you do get one that doesn't shoot you're on your own. For the money, if you're in the market for a fly weight rig, you can't beat the Montana.
I guess you meant Yonkers NY. I like the Montana a lot and it does offer one hell of lot for the money. Most of them appear to be pretty accurate for a fly weight rig but they don't have an accuracy promise so if you do get one that doesn't shoot you're on your own. For the money, if you're in the market for a fly weight rig, you can't beat the Montana.
I would agree with that but the LAW is offering something completely different by going with the Ed Brown, whereas, all the others that will compete with the LAW are doing so with some sort of Remington clone, with the exception of the Kimber that is a scaled down Mauser if I'm not mistaken. I owned a first generation Kimber Classic before they went to a three pos safety and it was a beautiful little rifle, but it isn't what I would call a tack driver and mine was a 7-08, normally a pretty accurate round.
No thanks, not my cup o tea. Don't like the stock on the kimber and it's not cerakoted. But like I said earlier, to each their own.
As far as the Forbes, I've not been impressed with the reviews I've read on this and other forums. I would go NULA before I would go Forbes. And perhaps LAW will market a ultra lightweight mountain rifle down the road. I don't think they are trying to compete with Forbes and kimber as much as say Winchester and montana rifle company and Nosler.
Don't like the Forbes? At least they are out there to try. Yet you're fully enamored with a rifle that nobody but a select few have handled and shot. Plus how does a rifle at a $1500 price point not compete with a Forbes or Kimber?
Forbes and kimber are marketing to the crowd that wants a super lightweight rifle. That's not what I'm in the market for at the moment, and that's not what the LAW rifles are. They are standard sporter weight rifles, which is what I'm looking for.
In my mind, the LAW is competing directly with the montana rifle company x2 and the Nosler patriot.
How many of you write articles for major shooting or hunting publications? How many of you have your own TV show about firearms or hunting?
Yeah, because any of those guys pay for any of this schit… Oh thats right. The people on this forum are the real purchasers of these products. Those people you just listed are the same ones that pimp mossberg 4x4 rifles and piece of schit tc encores.
Why don't you go look at the number of members of this forum and tell me if its not enough to keep a semi custom rifle company in business. Most people who would be interested in one of these rifles are either members here, or would at least do some research first before purchasing and come across some of the threads here.
The LAW rifle also has an all stainless action and I don't think any of the others have an all stainless action. The Kimber might be and awhile back I emailed them asking that question and never received a response. The Forbes action has a SS body, but uses a CM bolt. No CeraKote either. Price wise, I do agree with others that the LAW will compete with them, but I don't believe LAW's goal was to offer yet another flyweight rifle. So you get a custom action that is certainly unique, a High Tech stock, an all stainless action, Timney trigger, accuracy guarantee and a Cerakoted barreled action for $1500
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
Think I'm going to start up my own rifle company this year. The action will be made from recycled beer cans, the stock will feature alternating laminated popsicle sticks with a bedding block that runs the entire length of the stock, military surplus rifle barrels and a high tech proprietary Kyrlon metal treatment that John Burns and I developed. It will only be offered in 30-30 and perhaps in the future a 30/06 will be added with a 1-14 twist.
First, I think its great that we are seeing an interesting approach in a new rifle - a hybrid of the custom rifle many make/buy - think good action plus an aftermarket stock. Eg Model 70 for 700/800 plus a mcmillan for 500/600.
Like many I spend a lot of time on forums looking for rifles. I'm partial to CRF so I generally look for a model 70 with a nice aftermarket stock and, ideally, a good barrel but would be fine with a nice stock and factory barreled action. LAW seems to be providing this plus a better trigger and, likely, a better barrel than most factory rifles. Seems like a great start to me. Bottom metal does look a bit clunky, but most companies change their products over time to make them better.
While I agree with the feedback on twist rates, I'm impressed with the change to the .243 and, like others, think we should give these guys a chance to get going and iterate their product. They are trying to provide a high quality rifle for a good value - IMHO we should all be cheering them on - why would any of us not want another rifle option - especially one trying to hit the spot between factory and synthetic customs - no downside to any of us, all upside if they are successful in building a great rifle.
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
My feelings as well. How many companies come onto a forum not only to announce a new product, but take the time (and grief) to listen to potential buyers, answer questions and take feedback honestly with a willingness to make changes if necessary ? I think maybe Forbes did but not sure. Kimber ? Nope.
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
Okay I'm not a gun writer but I am a gunsmith and I have met your hero Boddington. He's a nice guy who's shot a bunch of stuff.
I think what people are trying to say to you is that seeing as how this company will have lots of competition, not just from MRC and Nosler like you suggest but also Kimber and Forbes. While the LAW rifle may be a pound heavier it will still be considered by the same folks who are shopping any of the above listed brands. The main point that folks here are trying to make, is that Reed came here to tell us, part of his prospective market, about this new offering. Folks around here are telling him, before these rifles are standardized and assembled which if he plays it right could get him more sales, what they want. They want twist, fast twist. It won't hurt a damn thing to have more twist than needed for old style bullets and those that want to would be able to sling 115s.
If twist wasn't listed on their website guys like you would never know the difference. But real rifle looneys, who shoot and experiment with something other than factory CoreLokts, would soon find out that they were twisted for ping pong balls. When they found out it would end up on the Fire, and on down the road to Google search results so that anyone who is thinking of buying one and gives achit will see it and look to buy something else. If I was bringing a new design to the market and advertising it online, I'd damn sure be willing to measure COL and tell folks how it was going to be throated.
This is free R&D for this company, with people who shoot more than a half box a year to check zero on a road sign, giving him feedback on features that will help make his product appeal to a larger market without alienating the other marketshare that doesn't care. Not one single suggestion listed herein will cost them any extra money to implement aside from possibly the bottom metal suggestion.
PS. Boddington is not an engineer nor a gunsmith as far as I know. He may have killed a bunch of critters but he also claimed that cartridges such as the 270 and 06 were marginal for larger than whitetail deer. The man sells his opinion and while I'm not flat out saying his opinion can be bought off, one has to remember that it is for sale.
I think what people are trying to say to you is that seeing as how this company will have lots of competition, not just from MRC and Nosler like you suggest but also Kimber and Forbes. While the LAW rifle may be a pound heavier it will still be considered by the same folks who are shopping any of the above listed brands. The main point that folks here are trying to make, is that Reed came here to tell us, part of his prospective market, about this new offering. Folks around here are telling him, before these rifles are standardized and assembled which if he plays it right could get him more sales, what they want. They want twist, fast twist. It won't hurt a damn thing to have more twist than needed for old style bullets and those that want to would be able to sling 115s.
If twist wasn't listed on their website guys like you would never know the difference. But real rifle looneys, who shoot and experiment with something other than factory CoreLokts, would soon find out that they were twisted for ping pong balls. When they found out it would end up on the Fire, and on down the road to Google search results so that anyone who is thinking of buying one and gives achit will see it and look to buy something else. If I was bringing a new design to the market and advertising it online, I'd damn sure be willing to measure COL and tell folks how it was going to be throated.
This is free R&D for this company, with people who shoot more than a half box a year to check zero on a road sign, giving him feedback on features that will help make his product appeal to a larger market without alienating the other marketshare that doesn't care. Not one single suggestion listed herein will cost them any extra money to implement aside from possibly the bottom metal suggestion.
I want an action based around a 223AI, i.e "short" with a mag well that will fit long/heavy for caliber bullets. a 20" fast twist barrel heavy sporter contour, and a detachable mag (two types - a flush mag that holds 2 or 3, and a bigger one for really getting down)
I'll not be pre-ordering anything. The last time I did that was with a company panhandling online to get the Montana Rifleman action going and I took it in the shorts with lie after lie.
Yes, it's good to see someone soliciting ideas for their product, I wish nothing but luck for them.
I also see a few giving lots of reach arounds for something they've never held/touched/shot, etc, which is humorous to watch.
JasonH, go and look at how many members are on this site. It has the most of any gun forum on the web that I visit by a huge margin. And if you don't think people will by stuff that is done right, think again. Matter of fact I just saw 50 rifles spec'd right in a custom order from kimber sell in less than two days on another forum. The order isn't finalized yet, but I don't forsee many backing out of their word on that one. I'm more than willing to give one of these rifles a go, but if I can't shoot the bullets I want to run, there's no point. Why give a great accuracy guarantee and not twist it for the bullets used where that accuracy will matter. A 1.5 moa rifle will kill a lot of stuff to 300 yards no problem shooting ping pong balls.
As far as the gun writers and tv show hosts go. You said it yourself. They have to pay the bills. So you are never going to get a 100% real review from 99% of them. I prefer to stay in my career field, run my side business with my wife, and buy/build stuff as I see fit. Not pimp somebody else's [bleep] up for a few dollars and some free ammo.
I just read through the entire thread for the first time. It sure was easy to tell those who have never shot faster twisted rifles in a given caliber.
One of my questions for Paul is: why are manufacturers afraid to go to with faster twists when indications are they are wanted and they do work for all bullet weights, light to heavy. As stated before, bullets are getting longer, not shorter, for a given weight. I have played with faster twists in several sub-30 caliber cartridges for years and have not found a reason to not go with a faster twist barrel with any of the cartridges I have used for hunting at what are perceived as normal hunting distances.
I too hope all goes well with Legendary Arms Works' endeavor.....
People that actually shoot understand the merits of high bc bullets, and hence the needed twist.
A custom 243 with a 10 -or- 9 twist is about as awesome as a scope with a mil reticle and moa controls. Where do gun companies and optics companies get their engineers? PETA?
That appeared to be from the gunwriter range day they have before SHOT. There were probably a ton of people on the line firing various new offerings and they only get a limited amount time to handle the guns and then it's on down the line to the next manufacturer.
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
I've dropped more than the cost of a LAW on rifles before (and handguns) and will do so again, when one fits the parameters I want or when I have (another) built to purpose.
Guns and Ammo? They'll write up a glowing report about any turd that someone pays them to review. Boddington has merit, but so does John Barsness, and Steve Timm, and a host of other writers on this forum. You pegged it though, on the press/media, they won't get paid and make their budgets if they don't pimp the wares of whomever is paying them. That's why I will take the word of UNPAID, known shooters over the PAID press any day and every day.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
First, I think its great that we are seeing an interesting approach in a new rifle - a hybrid of the custom rifle many make/buy - think good action plus an aftermarket stock. Eg Model 70 for 700/800 plus a mcmillan for 500/600.
Like many I spend a lot of time on forums looking for rifles. I'm partial to CRF so I generally look for a model 70 with a nice aftermarket stock and, ideally, a good barrel but would be fine with a nice stock and factory barreled action. LAW seems to be providing this plus a better trigger and, likely, a better barrel than most factory rifles. Seems like a great start to me. Bottom metal does look a bit clunky, but most companies change their products over time to make them better.
While I agree with the feedback on twist rates, I'm impressed with the change to the .243 and, like others, think we should give these guys a chance to get going and iterate their product. They are trying to provide a high quality rifle for a good value - IMHO we should all be cheering them on - why would any of us not want another rifle option - especially one trying to hit the spot between factory and synthetic customs - no downside to any of us, all upside if they are successful in building a great rifle.
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
Originally Posted by RDFinn
Originally Posted by 10generation
Lastly, like others have said - big kudos to Paul Reed for providing the information he has and thanks to him for actually caring what all of us think - although given some of the responses, I'm surprised he's staying in the discussion.
My feelings as well. How many companies come onto a forum not only to announce a new product, but take the time (and grief) to listen to potential buyers, answer questions and take feedback honestly with a willingness to make changes if necessary ? I think maybe Forbes did but not sure. Kimber ? Nope.
Agreed on all the above.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
RDFinn, I think we might as well give up. LOL. There is little chance of opening any of the narrow minds on this subject. Let's just see what happens when the rifles hit the market and people get their hands on them.
Okbow87, while there are quite a few rifle loonies on this forum, I seriously doubt that many of them would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, even if a manufacturer took a vote on this forum and built a rifle to those exact specs.
It is also a bit shallow to condem gun writers or TV hosts for giving favorable reviews to the folks that place ads in their magazines or sponsor their shows. Gotta keep the lights on and pay the bills.......not gonna happen if you trash your sponsors. There are a few gun writers that I respect, and I tend to give some weight to their opinions. Craig Boddington is one of those writers. I have met him and found him to be a real down to earth guy who is extremely passionate about his job. He has a vast amount of experience hunting more types of game than I will ever see, and he has pulled quite a few triggers in his day. He seems to like the new LAW rifles, and I think that bodes well for them. if you think you can do a better job, why don't you submit your resume? Perhaps we will all be reading your reviews in Guns and Ammo one day.
Any gun manufacturer that has had to re-tool has been going to faster twisted barrels. Slow twists are being phased out.
It only makes sense to advise a new company to do same from the jump.
It will help them make money. Fast twist = more sales. Slow twist = less sales.
Travis
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
I'm sure the 1% of the market represented here at the Campfire will welcome faster twist rates. They rest of their market never even bother to ask about twist rates, nor care.
I'm sure the 1% of the market represented here at the Campfire will welcome faster twist rates. They rest of their market never even bother to ask about twist rates, nor care.
They wouldn't care if the twist rate was done faster, either. The faster twist in 6mm and .22, especially, wouldn't hurt anything and could only help in allowing the use of heavier, higher BC bullets.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
I'm sure the 1% of the market represented here at the Campfire will welcome faster twist rates. They rest of their market never even bother to ask about twist rates, nor care.
I'm happy to see more quality rifles coming to the market and wish them luck. I don't see a problem with a single announcement by a new manufacturer. But while we're hammering away on twist rates, how about 3 different twist rates for 4 different .284 bores? That doesn't seem very efficient from a manufacturing standpoint. Stick a 9 on all of them and call it a day.
At least someone is asking. Old enough to notice everyone is charging WAAAAAY more for garbage just cause'... Remmy wants a GRAND to start.. Lighten up. You have a custom manufacturer asking questions. What more can you want?
W
"I would build one again, if it were not for my 350RM (grin)."
At least someone is asking. Old enough to notice everyone is charging WAAAAAY more for garbage just cause'... Remmy wants a GRAND to start.. Lighten up. You have a custom manufacturer asking questions. What more can you want?
A manufacturer who actually asks because he plans to incorporate what the people he asked says. Otherwise he is just trying to get some cheap advertising; and that to the wrong crowd.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
At least someone is asking. Old enough to notice everyone is charging WAAAAAY more for garbage just cause'... Remmy wants a GRAND to start.. Lighten up. You have a custom manufacturer asking questions. What more can you want?
A manufacturer who actually asks because he plans to incorporate what the people he asked says. Otherwise he is just trying to get some cheap advertising; and that to the wrong crowd.
DingKchunt,
You sorry,sorry,sorry...STUPID fhuqking piece of schit! Bless your heart!!!
The OP is as fhuqking SRTUPID as you and both you DUMB Kchunts are oblivious to looooooonnngggggg established FACTS. Hint. Laughing!!!
The 1903 was wearing a 1-10" spout at inception. Though a 1-12" 20" long 308Win tube will pinwheel 208A-Max at sealevel,when supersonic. Hint. Laughing!!!
These STUPID fhuqkers put 1-12" spouts on their 22-250. Mebbe you and Brad can guess(if only because you HAVE to),which of these will hit headfirst?!?
Or perhaps muse 6mm's?!? Laughing!
Cheer up..I don't shoot any of 'em either,except for ALL of 'em. Hint. laughing!!!
I'll yet again feign my "suprise",that the dumbfhuqking Drooling OP skirted ALL things The Rifle and Windows keep getting licked. Laughing!
COAL constraints and throat geometry matter,to them with a clue.
RE-hint!!!!!
Wowwwwwwwwwwww.
Ooopsie..the Garand was 1-10" on inception too.
My bad.
Laughing!!!!!
Mebbe send an EMERGENCY Coke-bottle PM and get Shrapnel to "help".
Fhuqking LAUGHING!!!!..............
Cheer up...a 1-10" Liljee SAAMI 7-08 will pinwheel 162A-Max to 1200yds and beyond,despite The Milford Sea Level. Hint.
Brad: Yes we do have a scale in the shop and all the stocks have and have had weights assigned to them on the High Tech Specialties Web site. As you stated in your post there has been no change to that Web site and the stock weights for a number of years. It is action dependent of course so the weighs are different. I weighed one of the stocks that we are using on the Legendary Arms Works rifles and it weighs 25 ounces, painted, with the aluminum bedding blocks and a Pachmayr Decelerator pad installed.
Stocks and Sales: We will continue to maintain the High Tech Specialties Web site and sell aftermarket stocks there as available. As available means that we will be focusing initially in the stocks for the Legendary Arms Works rifles and fill in the other stocks in production as we can. Mark had over 30 molds including most in left hand. The construction of the stocks has not changed in either the High Tech aftermarkets or the Legendary Arms Works stocks with the exception that the LAWS stocks will now have the aluminum bedding construction. The stocks are hand laid with multiple layers of fiberglass cloth (I believe 8 ounce weight) and the same high strength epoxy materials that Mark has always used. We will be broadening the line late 2015
So got an email from Hope yesterday... apparently you (LAW) don't inlet your M70 stocks for the factory 1-piece bottom metal.
Since that's the only metal used on M70's since around 2005 or a bit earlier (both the last of the CT M70's and newer SC made ones) it seems a shame to lose such a large portion of the market.
I find it difficult to believe you all can't set up for a 1-piece inlet...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
I find it hard to believe how little business sense you have Brad. Mr. Reed has made this so clear that a [bleep] could understand what apparently is going right over your head. Stocks will be made to supply their new rifles first. After that, they'll get to the aftermarket segment. Mark Bansner made most of his customs in the beginning around Remington actions and then went with to the custom clones (Nesika's IIRC) for most of his builds and mod 70's for a dangerous game model, again IIRC. The name of this venture is Legendary Arms Works, not Legends in their own Minds Works. I'm betting that no matter what they make available down the road, you'll still be asking questions and won't be blowing the dust off your credit card to place an order regardless of what they make available.
I'm not that flexible and I have decent resources available to satisfy those needs. But geeeze Bradley how many times in how many threads did you birddog this guy for the weight of their stocks ? How many times did you ask him how they were made when he made it very clear that they were made the same way Mark Bansner made them but increased the volume ? The guy (Reed) comes here to #1 announce the product and #2 answer questions and even takes the suggestions seriously enough to make changes (twist rates) and your way of showing your appreciation is to ankle bite the guy day after day about production methods and stamp your little feet until you got an answer to your question. I probably won't sleep tonight knowing a person of your caliber told me to go phhuck myself.
JasonH, go and look at how many members are on this site. It has the most of any gun forum on the web that I visit by a huge margin. And if you don't think people will by stuff that is done right, think again. Matter of fact I just saw 50 rifles spec'd right in a custom order from kimber sell in less than two days on another forum. The order isn't finalized yet, but I don't forsee many backing out of their word on that one. I'm more than willing to give one of these rifles a go, but if I can't shoot the bullets I want to run, there's no point. Why give a great accuracy guarantee and not twist it for the bullets used where that accuracy will matter. A 1.5 moa rifle will kill a lot of stuff to 300 yards no problem shooting ping pong balls.
As far as the gun writers and tv show hosts go. You said it yourself. They have to pay the bills. So you are never going to get a 100% real review from 99% of them. I prefer to stay in my career field, run my side business with my wife, and buy/build stuff as I see fit. Not pimp somebody else's [bleep] up for a few dollars and some free ammo.
Also, any chance of having a prototype at the Great Outdoor Show in Harrisburg next week?
They have a booth at the show and I'm heading out there next week. If I see Paul Reed there, I'm going to walk right up to him and ask him....."what's the twist rate in this rifle" just to see his reaction...........
I'm quite seriously considering it; twist rate or not. The barrels can get changed. For the price, if it is what they say it is, even with a barrel change it's a damned good deal.
I want to see one in person first, though.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
Still don't know how they are throated in relationship to mag constraints. With the right twist and ample room in mag for the right bullets I would entertain purchasing one inspite of the stock
My apologies for the delayed responses, it has been hard to keep up with all the postings on the various forums as well as make a few rifles! I just realized that my last posting update was way back on page 6. We greatly appreciate all the feedback, input, criticism and comments on our rifles. Passion with a bit of Poison at times is the way I would describe this thread and the number of responses is almost overwhelming to us at the company. I hope we can be civil with each other and those who offer up poison will be ignored by us I suspect. I will try to catch up with the questions and comments but it might take me a day or so...
Blackbrush: Your question about the design and construction of the bolt and bolt head is a valid one and an astute observation. My short answer is that it is safe but of course you want facts. I am in the process of gathering some engineering data and information that I will provide to you shortly, just be a bit patient with my timing. If you look at some other photo angles of the bolt you will see that despite the cuts there is still a substantial amount of material on the lugs and it is not a one lug configuration. I am trying to get some other photos together to post on the Website to allow shooters to see it...please stay tuned.
Twist Rates: Yes, we got the message, twist rates are important of certainly to this group of shooters. It is a bit of a challenge to configure barrels and twist rates that will satisfy everybody. The shooter's on this forum are more advanced in their skills and shooting requirements when compare it to the average hunter who really doesn't pay attention to twist rates. For us, trying to keep our rifles at a price point that is competitive, it is difficult to offer a variety of options. I will say in general we are making an effort overall to move to faster twists. We will be looking at each caliber chambering again with an eye to “modernize" the twist rates more. As I stated in an earlier posting, we will be reestablishing our custom business, but probably not until late 2015 or early 2016. There the sky is the limit. The information that all of you are providing has been very helpful. Shortactionsmoker has a pretty good suggestion to market to the rifle guys, the others won't know the difference or care.
Taylorforce1: your observation about the industry moving towards sub $500 rifles your spot on. We call it “the race to the bottom". We wonder where it will end. I am not suggesting that those rifles don't have a purpose, but that is not where we want to be with our rifles.
Tedthorn: thanks for your comments. I guess I would say “different strokes, for different folks" when it comes to our action configuration and the sharp edges you refer to. I think it makes the rifle look distinctive but at the same time still comfortable to carry in the hand. Your point about the scope base hanging over the rear action bridge is a valid one. Part of the reason is the size and configuration of the Talley style base and weaver style bases that we are using. In reality the real issue is the length of the rear receiver bridge is generally shorter than most other rifles. I will take that suggestion back to Mark and the team and see if we can make a modification. With regard to the bolt handle welding, that is a good comment but TIG welding is a bit harder to do and can be more expensive. We have tested the bolt handles under significant stress and have been satisfied with their strength. However if you are a handloader who likes to run in the world of maximum pressure, and end up sticking a bolt shut, we can't guarantee it when you whack at it with a 2x4! For normal hunting and shooting use the bolt handles have held up well. 28 Nosler...looks like an interesting cartridge and new can be good...not going to say anymore to avoid divulging company secrets. With regard to bottom metal, no immediate plans for a blind magazine. I personally don't like them but understand that there is a desire for that in the market.
Skane: Nope, not Hawkins bottom metal but one of equal quality. You are correct on the blind magazine issue...it seems to be a true split down the middle.
Steelhead, tedtthorn: Regarding the stock "2x4 look" that you suggest is perhaps the way the picture is configures. Yes the stock does have a squarish flat bottom and it sits well in the bags but at the same time feels well and carries well. This design has been on Mark's stocks for over 20 years and has been widely accepted. I suggest reserving judgment until you can get one in your hand. Ted-I'll take that bet, I don't think you carry the gun that far up on the forearm of the stock but rather at the floorplate where it is slightly rounded. They feel well in the hand. I used a Big Five in Mozambique on a buffalo hunt last September and carried it for 10 days and never once felt it was uncomfortable.
JasonH: You are correct with regard to prices. We took pretty hard look at the market and you see two "peaks" one under $500 and the other over ~$2500. Considering a Winchester Model 70 is selling in the $1100 to $1200 range we think we have a market price point that is attractive considering the features offered. And you are correct, we are spoiled in the US with our options...but I submit that there is one rifle out there that will make you happy
Deflave: The 243 with a 1 in 8" really seems to me to be on he extreme end of the shooting community wishes but as I said we are looking at all twists. I do not have personal experience with a 243 so can't offer real life fact based opinion. Do you have experience with that twist rate and shooting bullets at the extreme light and heavy ends of the spectrum? If so how did they shoot?
Tedthorn: The bottom metal pocket is both cut and molded, the fit is excellent IMO. Utter the phrase “Injection Molded” and that will get you fired at LAW after Mark tears you a new one. Okay, no more company secrets...
RDfinn: $20K for a mold...I wish! I had no idea what was involved to make a stock and I'll bet most others would be surprised too. Knowing what I know makes our rifles an even better value IMO.
Tedthorn: You are absolutely right on, I am overwhelmed at the amount of advice we have received from this and other forums. I can't keep up and of course not all of it is actionable for us but the test bed is something unique to our sport I suspect. Maybe the car guys get as passionate but for us in the gun industry we can't even begin to put a value on the advice...thanks again to all.
Steelhead: COAL and mag box information...Heard it, I just put the final touches of an Action Specification Sheet and it will be up on the LAW Website next week in the Model 704 Action Specs link here: http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/704-action/. It should give all the information people want. Yes, looking at the 7mm cartridge twists...we chose the industry accepted standards but are reviewing them
Tedthorn/taylorforce: Regarding the statement: This company won't be around in 5 years if they want to build $1500 rifles that a company in Yonkers already builds for 500 less.... you refer to a Kimber. I have one in our shop and have compared them side by side...not even close on many fronts, stock is not as comfortable to me, not Cerakoted etc. Melvin Forbes is a great gunsmith with tremendous experience and he and Mark are friends but it is a push feed rifle.
JasonH: Correct, we are not marketing an ultra light rifle but rather a sporter rifle and you are correct in our competitive environment being Nosler and perhaps a Montana. With most of the other rifles the separator is the controlled round feed action.
10thgeneration/thekid/fosteology/rwe: As I stated above, we appreciate the advice and yes it is equivalent to an R&D department. We are listening, may not mean we can act on everything though. And yes I’d like to think it takes balls to come here and “run the gauntlet” but I will say that the response has been at least 90% positive constructive criticism for the forum both publicly and in PMs. There are some members who should be sent to their room without milk and cookies however…
Moosemike: We will be at the Great American Outdoor Show in booth 457. Please stop by and introduce yourself.
Mmgravy: I don’t think we are “afraid” of changing twists but we are taking both a measured and fact based approach to producing rifles that will appeal to most shooters. I’m not saying we are trying to make our rifles “generic” but each change is being very well researched and thought out primarily because changes translate to one thing-expense. I think we have shown that we are adaptable at LAW. We heard the message-reconsider your twist rates.
Regarding the Ron Spomer video: Jesus guys, before you go off the rails further please take a breath, get a glass of single malt and relax … Yes the commentary may seem misleading, but here are the FACTS. SHOT Show range day is huge amount of activity for many gun companies. Our team was set up and was shooting at a steel gong at 500 yards. Ron shot about midway through the day and the gong was obliterated with hits (yes I said hits at 500 yards) making it hard to determine a group. It was not possible to go downrange, nor permitted and no there was no snow, just bullets flying around! And yes there were optics there and yes there was an attempt to spot the gong but after so much shooting it was not truly possible to judge a group. I thought I remember someone here posting that they were at the Range Day event so perhaps they would corroborate my summary. The event was really meant to allow the writers and dealers to shoot the rifle a bit, get familiar with the fit, feel and finish not an extensive testing for accuracy. That will come later when they rifles in the hands at their home ranges. Currently there are at least three articles in the works by writers and those will be more detailed. Really the SHOT Show range day is more akin to a beauty pageant than a full blown rifle test. There is so much activity going on that all writers and dealers get to do is quick review. Spomer is a man of high ethics and a good writer IMO with boundless energy and I think he was impressed with the gun. Deflave….an unemployed alcoholic with a Zeiss spotter and camera….maybe you should replace your milk carton with beverage that is a little more calming
Ringman: We are trying to answer questions, get feedback and be transparent. As for my postings just being a commercial to get cheap advertising, I think that would be insulting for me to do that to the Forum members. No question that we want to sell guns, we probably could spend our money on the typical advertising avenues with less effort but that is not the goal. I think I’ve shown that LAW is giving in return for getting. If the moderator views this as advertising they always have the option to remove the thread but that has not happened on any of the forums where I have been commenting.
Brad: Hope told me about the communication with you and I’m sorry that we can’t immediately fulfill your needs for a M70 configuration you seek. As I said in earlier posts nearly all of our efforts in stock making are being devoted to the M704 rifles and we “fill in” as we can on the secondary market. Yes the market is probably strong for a variety of rifle fits, I think at last count we had 35 variations in house. Yes we can set up to fit that M70 and probably will hopefully in the near future. I would submit however that you would be aghast if I told you the amount of effort and finances to do one rifle stock mold…not done overnight.
Gents, Let’s try to keep the thread positive or I will be forced to send some of you guys to detention
RDFinn: Yep, as I said above we will be at the Great American Outdoor Show booth 457. I will be there towards the end of the show with Craig at our booth. Please visit and introduce yourself. If you ask me “what is the twist rate on this rifle” my answer will be “Oh, all our guns are twisted fast, they shoot any bullet you can find”
I’ll end this long winded response again with a genuine “Thank You” to the forum for the feedback…I gotta go help make a rifle.
I would submit however that you would be aghast if I told you the amount of effort and finances to do one rifle stock mold…not done overnight.
I know what it costs for the mold so I wouldn't be "aghast"... milling out the bottom a bit more for 1-piece bottom metal vs. 2 piece doesn't require a new mold, it just requires milling it out differently. Sheesh. CNC can be programmed for that.
Bansners/High Tech did a 1-piece M70 inlet for me summer of 2012, but for some reason won't do it now. Obviously it doesn't take a new mold.
No worries, I have a McMillan on order instead.
Thanks.
PS, I wish you all the best with LAW... if you're able to deliver at the quoted prices I think you'll have a winner. Looks like a lot of rifle for the money.
Last edited by Brad; 02/07/15.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
I've been following this thread with interest. I don't know Reed but do know Mark Bansner,at least as a result of quite a few phone conversations, through mutual aquaintances,and as a result of having owned at least 1/2 dozen of his stocks.Mark not only knows rifles but is an experienced BG hunter as well, with as much or more experience as the majority of people posting on here.
I am not sure which of us owned one first but RinB and I have been using Bansner stocks going back quite a few years. I know i was first in my circle of friends in this area to have Mark's shop stock a rifle, but a good many more were built following my first one.I know where there are several in use right now on friends rifles and I would put the number at easily over 20 stock jobs on a variety of rifles.For some guys these have been "lifetime" rifles, taken everywhere from Newfoundland to Africa to Alaska and back without a hitch.
My own "favorite" was a M70 in 7 RM with Bansner stock that I hunted everywhere out west and in Canada for several years before I shot out the barrel (a 9 twist Krieger) that never changed POI in any fashion as long as I owned it. I was always impressed with the durability and reliability of the good bedding job that Tom and Clay at Mark's shop did on those rifles....in all that time the guard screws never even loosened.Others I have owned and shot have been of the same level of quality and accuracy.
Friends and I have lugged the rifles everywhere; never heard any comments about a Bansner stock being squared off too much,or uncomfortable to carry,or too heavy, or anything else remotely similar to those comments.
As to the actions I don't have any experience using them but have handled one Ed Brown rifle built for an acquaintance in the Peace River region of Alberta. The rifle was shipped to my LGS for transfer to Canada; the owner of the shop and I both hunted with the same outfitter,and he was transporting the rifle to Alberta.The action was very high quality...a long step above any Kimber or M70 Classic,and a had a silky smoothness to its workings reminiscent of a Mannlicher Shoenauer...it was that smooth and well made.
If the rifle were a "one lug" design, it's news to me since the action was used for all standard and magnum cartridges including the WSM line,loaded by the factories to 65,000 psi. so, having Reed jump through hoops to "prove" an already proven two lug actions design seems like a waste of the guy's time.
I don't know if LAW will be giving them the same level of finish as the original Ed Brown action but if they do anyone would have to be impressed. I liked it well enough that I wanted one myself; never got around to it. The rifle that went to Alberta was used by the owner up there with complete satisfaction...have not been in touch in a few years but spoke with him when I hunted up there and he and already shot a lot of game with it, and he considered it ideal for the game hunted in that country...mule, whitetail deer, black bear, moose, elk etc.
I would not expect the LAW to be as light as a Kimber,a nice feature that I like myself about Kimbers, but dramatically over played in importance.The twist thing I won't comment on except to say I like them spun faster myself if the bullet is built to take the torque,but not everyone chooses bullets for BG hunting based on BC alone;and many great hunting(not target) bullets do just fine with standard twists. YMMV.
The gist of all this is that Mark Bansner likely knows his way around BG rifles better than most;(certainly more than most of us on here) and knows how to build a rifle that will stand up to most of the demands dished out for real, not imagined, BG hunting. I don't know how these LAW rifles will turn out but in my eyes Mark's reputation precedes him and I bet they will be a good dependable piece of gear. I would not mind getting my hands on one myself if I could figure out what caliber I'd like.
I really don't need very much of anything right now.
Wish Reed and Mark best of luck with the new venture.
I got my first Bansner stock in 2004 for an M70. I never found it "squared off" and it and the Kimber Montana are the best fitting stocks for me and my build. It does retain a bit too much beef in the forearm for a no.1 contour, but that's a minor nit pick. It carries and balance superbly.
Here's that first High Tech stocked M70 on its maiden voyage:
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
But regarding LAW rifles, I sure don't understand the color they chose for "The Closer"... fugly! They call it "grey" but it's showing as tan with black specks.
Someone there must be color blind to pick such a color for a mass-sale rifle...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
It takes a lot of courage to start a new rifle manufacturing company these days, especially one that is trying to build a semi-custom rifle at a popular price point. Good luck on that.
I build my own rifles on Savage Precision Target Actions, Remington 700 and now 783 actions. While primarily I build for varmint hunting, I also just like to experiment. One thing I have learned from actual shooting tests of various barrel twist rates, is that faster is better across the board. Not only that, all one needs to do is measure the length of a given bullet and plug the data into a twist calculator to obtain the desired twist. Here are two twist calculators and one ballistic calculator:
As for .243" (6mm) bullets, what I discovered is that all the old ideas are completely wrong in light of the new monolithic copper expanding bullets and the compressed copper/tin compressed core jacketed frangible bullets. For example the 62 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade when fired in a 6mm PPC with a "standard" 1:14" twist would only occasionally hit a 100 yard target, and when they did they were completely sideways. So, without using a twist calculator, I followed the bullet manufacturer's recommendation of a 1:10" twist and ordered a corresponding Shilen barrel. That twist stabilized the bullet, but groups were still running around 1.5" or larger.
So I plugged the bullet data into a calculator and found the 1:10" twist was marginal for stabilizing that long (0.974") and light weight (62 grain) bullet. The calculator revealed that a 1:8" twist would stabilize the bullet at all velocities. A new 1:8" twist barrel chambered for the .243 WSSM shot ten round groups between 0.185" and 0.300" depending on conditions. I want the resulting Stability Factor to be at least 1.5 and closer to 2.0 if possible, in this case the 62 grain Varmint Grenade at 3,580 fps returned a Stability factor of 1.898, good to go.
This also proved true for the .224" regardless of cartridge. 1:10" Twist did not provide the degree of accuracy I was looking for in the .22-250 Remington with the 50 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade, but a 1"9" twist worked across all cartridges from the aforementioned .22-250 Remington, its Ackley Improved version, and the .223 Remington. It also stabilized the lighter Nosler 40 grain BT Lead Free and the Nosler 69 grain Custom Competition Bullet, as well as any other I worked up loads for.
So now my standard .243" twist is 1:8". And I use the 1:9" twist for all .224" applications, except a 1:8" twist for AR-15's with heavy bullets. I currently have two 1:8" twist barrels in the works for the 6mm PPC (Brux) and 6mm BR Norma (Kreiger), which should prove the application from the little PPC to the larger .243 WSSM.
It was also discovered that the 1:12" factory twist for .204 Ruger was just too slow. It was the reason that some had poor performance with 39 grain plus bullets. I began testing with a 1:8.5" twist especially for Berger's 50 grain HPBT .204 bullet. While the bullet shot consistently in the 0.5" range for ten shots, Berger discontinued it in favor of the 55 grain HPBT bullet. Still, that 1:8.5" twist kept the groups under 1" and with a bit of load tweaking would have probably done better.
That 1:8.5" twist also shot the 26 grain Varmint Grenade in the .25" class, and at 4,110 fps. I had a Hart barrel made for an AR-15 build with a heavy contour 1:9" twist barrel, that shoots Hornady's 24 grain .204 NTX BT bullet at 3,900 fps well under .5". It also handles every various brand conventional bullet similarly. So that now my standard twist for the .204 Ruger is 1:9".
So far all the supposed drawbacks of fast twists imagined by the pundits, bullets coming apart from too much spin, excessive spin drift, etc., have not shown up. So I recommend if we are to err in selecting a twist rate, err on the side of faster rather than slower - because nothing will make a twist that is too slow work optimally.
I have not seen the color......course I'm the wrong one to ask....I'll hunt them with no paint LOL!
Bob responding to you and to anyone/no one.
Not sure what's going on with my camfire settings... should have shown responding to you but didn't. Weird. Also all my reponses are going into "wathced topics"... a new and wierd turn of events.
BTW, you and Dober hunt them "raw"... had his over at the house this week to fiddle with... it doesn't get much more "Dober" than this... it'll definitely frighten game being blue and all :
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Skane, one reason I like the Banser stock so much is its wonderfully straight comb. I also think it has enough "beef" to hold onto to shoot well... not as thick as a chopped glass B&C stock, but not as thin as a, say, Brown or McMillan Compact.
Also, for a pre-64 m70, it has a cheekpiece which definitely helps acquire the typically higher mounted scope of a pre-64.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Thank you Paul for taking the time to answer so many questions from a very tough crowd, you're a brave man. The rifle seems to be very well thought out and looks to have the qualities to do nicely in today's market.
As usual you're observations are spot on Bob. 95% of hunters will be buying the ammo for these rifles and will pick "hunting" bullets in their favorite factory brand. They wouldn't know the difference between a BC or a STD and wouldn't care as probably 99% of game taken every year is under 300 yrds......well under that in fact. When I included the Kimber Montana as a competitor, it was strictly based on a price point and to be perfectly honest Kimber pretty much owns the ultra light market for what they offer at their price point. If LAW markets this rifle correctly and with a lot of visibility, they are going to do well. When Ed Brown offered the rifle, it came with a price tag of over 3K IIRC. These guys are able to produce them in volume with a good stock, as evidenced here already, and an accuracy guarantee to boot for half the price.
Your ? was not ignored he mentioned the magazine constraints would be listed on the website next week!
I meant it in the welcoming DeFlave context If twists and mag contraints are copacetic they will be a good package I realize its not a full blown custom but these things are mandatory Some of the other things are a trade off that may not be exactly what I like but not a deal breaker
Deflave: The 243 with a 1 in 8" really seems to me to be on he extreme end of the shooting community wishes but as I said we are looking at all twists. I do not have personal experience with a 243 so can't offer real life fact based opinion. Do you have experience with that twist rate and shooting bullets at the extreme light and heavy ends of the spectrum? If so how did they shoot?
Reed, lightweight projectiles are not adversely affected by a faster twist. The adversity is for heavy/long projectiles trying to stabilize via a slow twist. Twisting fast will sell you more rifles, simple as that. Buy a few custom tubes and do a test for yourself. This sort of testing should be pretty cheap when you consider the potential benefit. Research is fun!
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… Yes the commentary may seem misleading, but here are the ![[Linked Image]](http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa326/bradmacmt/Hunting/IM000612.jpg)
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