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#9551650 01/27/15
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Just sold my SB11 and thinking on putting the proceeds against this:

[url=http://grizzly9-px.rtrk.ca/products/14-x-40-Gunsmith-Lathe-with-DRO/G0776][/url]

I would appreciate any advice, comments, etc. Thank you.---Spano


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Seems to be a decent tool for the job..


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Thank you.


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My biggest complaint is why do they use a D1-5 spindle setup? Your tooling(chucks) will be very heavy. How will the DRO help you.
Aside from that, Shiraz offers some nice products and is a very accomplished FClass shooter.

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Once you have used a DRO equipped lathe you'll be amazed how much easier and faster your work will be. I added one to my lathe in 1976 and haven't been without one since. No more mental mathematic gymnastics, counting dial revolutions, worrying about does this lathe cut 1:1 or 2:1. Get the DRO you won't regret it and will wonder how you ever got along without it. My DRO of choice has always been Southwest Industry's TRAK, you owe it to yourself to check it out. Feel free to PM me if you have any further questions, I am a Gunsmith/Toolmaker with 40+ years of experience.

Last edited by gunswizard; 01/28/15.
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http://grizzly9-px.rtrk.ca/products/14-x-40-Gunsmith-Lathe-with-DRO/G0776

That looks like the same Chinese lower gear box as on my Precision Matthews PM1236
http://precisionmatthewsstore.com/index.php?id_product=9&controller=product

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
12TPI is in the upper half with the 48 tooth gear, while 16TPI is in the lower half with the 24 tooth gear.
The change between 16TPI Rem700 and 12TPI 98 Mauser requires getting the fingers dirty on a gear change.

My lower gear box failed, and I drilled and taped a shaft to pin a key and fixed it.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by gunswizard
Once you have used a DRO equipped lathe you'll be amazed how much easier and faster your work will be. I added one to my lathe in 1976 and haven't been without one since. No more mental mathematic gymnastics, counting dial revolutions, worrying about does this lathe cut 1:1 or 2:1. Get the DRO you won't regret it and will wonder how you ever got along without it. My DRO of choice has always been Southwest Industry's TRAK, you owe it to yourself to check it out. Feel free to PM me if you have any further questions, I am a Gunsmith/Toolmaker with 40+ years of experience.


How effective is a DRO for threading?

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DRO does not help me in threading.
But it helps a lot in preparing the breech for threading.

DRO is like having a microwave. You live without one, until you have lived with one.

Wait Wait,
Butch Lambert?
You know more about gunsmithing than I do.
You must have posted that question rhetorically.


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Sharpie marker is the best for threading.


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I can see using a DRO for some things, but my mind doesn't work fast enough to use it for threading. I love my Trav A Dial for threading. I have DROs on both of my Bridgeports.

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I have used DROs on both lathes and mills. I really like them on mills but haven't felt the need to spend $2000 extra on a DRO for my lathe.

I think the one you are looking at has a D1-4 spindle rather than the 5.

I really like the 509 and 670 models and I am used to the D1-6 spindle so it doesn't bother me.


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Originally Posted by eddief
Sharpie marker is the best for threading.


That's my preferred method too. Start the compound at zero, run to cross slide in to just barely touch the tool to the work, and mark cross slide dial with a sharpie.

I have both a SB Wide 9 (from 1929) and a Grizzly 14x39. The SB has a lot more features, with the quick change gearbox, etc, but I find myself using the Grizzly more often. The heavier chuck and more modern bearings do make a difference in the quality of the cut, as well as the depth of cut it can take.

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I do it just the opposite. I back my compound out so as to have enough travel to do the thread then set the cross slide to 0. And then bring the compound in until bit touches. That way I just have to come back to zero. Either way works I have thread hundreds of shafts and barrels on my 1945 14 x 7 South Bend this way. Depends on how you where taught.

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So your carriage is moving towards the headstock and you have a Sharpie mark on the ways? Now as far as the cross slide and compound, I start both at (0).
Please! Somebody tell me how to use the Sharpie to know when to disengage the half nut.

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I start both at zero too. I set the crossfield handle in the 3 O'Clock position so I have back it off quickly. It would be fun to have a Haas lathe to thread with where you could set it up for zero runnout and let the computer start and stop. Those high-speed threads sure look nice too!


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A DRO just shows you your position in big, red letters to 4 decimal points instead of a tiny hash mark on a dial.

It's the difference between fixed sights and a 10 power scope.

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I started to purchase the DRO with my lathe but didn't figure it was worth the extra cost for my what i use my lathe for. I only use the lathe for personal builds and have never missed it.


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Originally Posted by butchlambert1
So your carriage is moving towards the headstock and you have a Sharpie mark on the ways? Now as far as the cross slide and compound, I start both at (0).
Please! Somebody tell me how to use the Sharpie to know when to disengage the half nut.


No! A sharpie mark is just made on the cross slide dial, once it's run in to just touch the tool to the part. The sharpie mark is just a big clearly visible mark to make it easy to return the cross slide to the same place for each cut. Same idea as setting it to zero, just another way to do it, that can make it a little easier.

Question though, how do you set both the cross slide and compound to zero, with the tool touching the part? Do you have adjustable dials? Or are you loosening the tool in the toolholder and moving it to the correct position?

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Originally Posted by wtroger
I do it just the opposite. I back my compound out so as to have enough travel to do the thread then set the cross slide to 0. And then bring the compound in until bit touches. That way I just have to come back to zero. Either way works I have thread hundreds of shafts and barrels on my 1945 14 x 7 South Bend this way. Depends on how you where taught.


Not opposite, you're doing essentially the same thing. The only difference is you're using 0 on the cross slide as a reference, and I'm making a sharpie mark as a reference, wherever it happens to be. I just prefer to start the compound at 0 to make it easier to count how deep I've cut, but that's a very minor detail.

Neither of my lathes have adjustable dials, so I'm not sure how both would be set at 0.

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My lathe is a d1-5 and has a dro. I like it.


Originally Posted by BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by Bristoe
A DRO just shows you your position in big, red letters to 4 decimal points instead of a tiny hash mark on a dial.

It's the difference between fixed sights and a 10 power scope.


And with my old machinery, there is the problem of .050" of backlash.


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.....and when building a piece from scratch it is nice to pre program the numbers in and start hogging without thinking.


Originally Posted by BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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Quote
Question though, how do you set both the cross slide and compound to zero, with the tool touching the part? Do you have adjustable dials? Or are you loosening the tool in the toolholder and moving it to the correct position?



My dials are adjustable. I just loosen a set screw and spin the dial to zero- same thing on the tailstock and main screw.


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Mine are like Dennis's. I can adjust them both. I still haven't been told how you can watch the DRO and disengage your half nut and back out your cross slide. Those lights blink to fast for me to do it. I have DROs on both of my mills, but haven't seen a need on the lathe.
You would love threading on my Monarch 10EE with ELSR. Your cross slide knobs have adjustable stops. When you bring it back out at the end of the thread it hits the stop, when you are ready to make the next pass you run the cross slide in and it stops at what ever you had it set for. No looking necessary. The ELSR stops threading at your preconceived stop and instantly stops the chuck. Pull your cross slide back, hit the ESLR lever and the carriage fast feeds back to your preset stop. Dial your cross slide back to the stop and crank your compound and make another pass. You do not have to fool with the half nut.

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Originally Posted by dennisinaz


My dials are adjustable. I just loosen a set screw and spin the dial to zero- same thing on the tailstock and main screw.


That makes sense then. The dials are not adjustable on my old South Bend, hence the sharpie mark.

Butch, that sounds like a sweet setup on that Monarch lathe. Does yours have capability to instantly reverse the chuck? I saw a neat video of a threading tool on a horizontal pivot, so it could be reversed back through the threads without moving the cross slide, the tool just lifted up to ride on top in reverse. The lathe in the video was set up to instantly reverse at the end of the threads, don't know what it was though.

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dam if that wouldn't be a nice to have on your lathe


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Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by dennisinaz


My dials are adjustable. I just loosen a set screw and spin the dial to zero- same thing on the tailstock and main screw.


That makes sense then. The dials are not adjustable on my old South Bend, hence the sharpie mark.

Butch, that sounds like a sweet setup on that Monarch lathe. Does yours have capability to instantly reverse the chuck? I saw a neat video of a threading tool on a horizontal pivot, so it could be reversed back through the threads without moving the cross slide, the tool just lifted up to ride on top in reverse. The lathe in the video was set up to instantly reverse at the end of the threads, don't know what it was though.


The ELSR does instantly stop both the carriage and chuck. I do back out the tool manually and the ELSR quick travels back. I have seen a tool like you have mentioned though.

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Butch, how do carbide inserts like to be stopped like that? Any breakage?


Originally Posted by BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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I do not use carbide. I use Warner HSS inserts.

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Found a Clausing Colchester 13x36 early 60's close by. It's been sitting inside mostly unused for over five years.

Dirty and greasy but no rust. It's a 440VAC 3 phase 5hp machine. Has a full set of collets but no collet chuck, three jaw, four jaw chuck, follow and steady rest, QCTP, etc. I haven't clocked it but did put the scope on it and it sounds like an old Singer.

Haven't got a price on it as the owner is out of pocket until who knows when. I do know he inherited it and has no interest in it. He lives many miles away and wants to sell.

So...I'm thinking this might be a "barn find" and I might pick it for cheap. It has never been advertised.

Thoughts?





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Clausing makes a great machine, its really hard to harm one,
I wouldn't have second thoughts buying it.


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Originally Posted by Spanokopitas

Found a Clausing Colchester 13x36 early 60's close by. It's been sitting inside mostly unused for over five years.

Dirty and greasy but no rust. It's a 440VAC 3 phase 5hp machine.
Thoughts?


I bought a 1967 Clausing 5914 at auction in 2002.
It was 440 VAC 3 phase.
I was rewiring the motor to be 220 3 phase by following the diagram inside the motor. I was upside down and dirty all over, when I realized that to swap any two wires of 3 phase would be to reverse direction of the motor.

A smart 6 year old could have figured that out in a second, but it took me until age 51 to figure out how to make a 3 phase motor go into reverse.


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Spanokopitas
If in decent shape, it should make you a fine machine.

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Originally Posted by Clarkm
[quote=Spanokopitas]
A smart 6 year old could have figured that out in a second, but it took me until age 51 to figure out how to make a 3 phase motor go into reverse.


Was a new maintenance manager at a plant and inherited an electrician. She tells me that the reason the conveyor they just put in a new motor was running backwards was because the fuses were in upside down. Totally serious. She didn't work for me very long.

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I did figure out on my own at age 38 that 3 phases each rectified into hypersines, that are each converted by 3 fixed pulse width discontinuous flybacks, will be a system with perfect power factor and constant power draw. I am not the only one to figure that out. You want to draw power as the square of the Voltage? Just go topology shopping, and the discontinuous flyback works.


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Originally Posted by Spanokopitas

Found a Clausing Colchester 13x36 early 60's close by. It's been sitting inside mostly unused for over five years.

Dirty and greasy but no rust. It's a 440VAC 3 phase 5hp machine. Has a full set of collets but no collet chuck, three jaw, four jaw chuck, follow and steady rest, QCTP, etc. I haven't clocked it but did put the scope on it and it sounds like an old Singer.

Haven't got a price on it as the owner is out of pocket until who knows when. I do know he inherited it and has no interest in it. He lives many miles away and wants to sell.

So...I'm thinking this might be a "barn find" and I might pick it for cheap. It has never been advertised.

Thoughts?





Go with the Clausing, should be able to change the leads in the motor to 220v if you don't have a 440v service.





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Checked the motor out yesterday. It is 220 3phase, not 440 so I'm good to go. I will need another phase converter because my present unit won't handle 5hp.

The price is, "Somewhere between $1,500 and $2,000". The owner is still on vacation.


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I bought 5 Summits 10 years back and they have proven to be unbreakable. Have 10th and 11th graders that can tear up an anvil with a feather using them.

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Originally Posted by schoolmarm
I bought 5 Summits 10 years back and they have proven to be unbreakable. Have 10th and 11th graders that can tear up an anvil with a feather using them.


lol I use the same saying all the time except I insert a " rubber mallet " instead of a feather.

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FYI: I have a Grizzly 12x36 that I bought brand new. It is a Model 1001.

My big bitch with it is that it was in some respects like the one that someone pictured. To go from the "high" range of speeds to the "low" range of speeds you had to pull the end cover off, remove a bolt, and turn a gear over about the size of a small dinner plate, and then engage a quadrant gear differently. Too much of a PIA for me. I was very disappointed.
Think: Drill a big hole, drill a little hole. Face something big, and then get it down to 3 inches. A PIA....

My correction to this was to buy a phase converter, a 3 phase motor, and put a different pulley on the input shaft. I can now run it dead slow to thread. Before this it's slowest speed was something like 70 RPM. I hated to do coarse threads on it. I now do wrinkle paint stock jobs at about 4RPMs, and fly rod guides the same way.

My first lathe, was a 12x36 Atlas. I bought it new, and figured out how to set it up myself. I had never run a lathe until I bought it. I taught myself threading, setups, etc., by reading books and figuring things out. If I'd started at 70RPM learning to cut threads rather than 28 I'd still be down there busting things up. I had read books for years, and thought a lot.

My lathe is essentially the cheapest Grizzly Gunsmith's lathe with enhancements. They put a switch on the apron, and lengthened the bed to 40 inches. If you are looking at the cheapest of the Grizzly gunsmithing lathes you might check some of these things out. I got a taper attachment with mine and would want one.

I also wish I presently had a milling attachment. I am getting to the point where old age and poverty is preventing me from doing more work. I chamber through the headstock mostly, and would mount a good floating reamer holder in that. If you had a DRO you could also use it then to move your carriage back-and- forth to add and gauge any chambering depth. You would still want to use your depth mike against your headspace gauges, but it would make things much quicker. You would still have to watch for flex, deflection, work hardening, etc. Experience with YOUR equipment would teach you that if you weren't too dumb to learn from it.

I might have missed something in my thoughts, but I am certain that someone here will square me away. Oh, I also use one of Greg Tannels' muzzle flushers when I chamber through the headstock. I use a Bald Eagle floating holder. I got mine from the guy who invented it, about the time he did so.

Just brainstorming for you. Hope it helps. Hope others pitch in that have experience. If I suffered some type of brain lock forgive me.

I started with books, a few brains, and common sense. I learned a lot along the way.

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Originally Posted by swarf
FYI: I have a Grizzly 12x36 that I bought brand new. It is a Model 1001.

My big bitch with it is that it was in some respects like the one that someone pictured. To go from the "high" range of speeds to the "low" range of speeds you had to pull the end cover off, remove a bolt, and turn a gear over about the size of a small dinner plate, and then engage a quadrant gear differently. Too much of a PIA for me. I was very disappointed.
Think: Drill a big hole, drill a little hole. Face something big, and then get it down to 3 inches. A PIA....

My correction to this was to buy a phase converter, a 3 phase motor, and put a different pulley on the input shaft. I can now run it dead slow to thread. Before this it's slowest speed was something like 70 RPM. I hated to do coarse threads on it. I now do wrinkle paint stock jobs at about 4RPMs, and fly rod guides the same way.

My first lathe, was a 12x36 Atlas. I bought it new, and figured out how to set it up myself. I had never run a lathe until I bought it. I taught myself threading, setups, etc., by reading books and figuring things out. If I'd started at 70RPM learning to cut threads rather than 28 I'd still be down there busting things up. I had read books for years, and thought a lot.

My lathe is essentially the cheapest Grizzly Gunsmith's lathe with enhancements. They put a switch on the apron, and lengthened the bed to 40 inches. If you are looking at the cheapest of the Grizzly gunsmithing lathes you might check some of these things out. I got a taper attachment with mine and would want one.

I also wish I presently had a milling attachment. I am getting to the point where old age and poverty is preventing me from doing more work. I chamber through the headstock mostly, and would mount a good floating reamer holder in that. If you had a DRO you could also use it then to move your carriage back-and- forth to add and gauge any chambering depth. You would still want to use your depth mike against your headspace gauges, but it would make things much quicker. You would still have to watch for flex, deflection, work hardening, etc. Experience with YOUR equipment would teach you that if you weren't too dumb to learn from it.

I might have missed something in my thoughts, but I am certain that someone here will square me away. Oh, I also use one of Greg Tannels' muzzle flushers when I chamber through the headstock. I use a Bald Eagle floating holder. I got mine from the guy who invented it, about the time he did so.

Just brainstorming for you. Hope it helps. Hope others pitch in that have experience. If I suffered some type of brain lock forgive me.

I started with books, a few brains, and common sense. I learned a lot along the way.


I have a Precision Matthews pm1440bv which has the freq drive built into the control panel and the high/low is a simple lever. The variable speed is awesome.


Originally Posted by BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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I recently retired after a 40 year career as a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker, most of the companies I worked for had 15" Clausing Colchester lathes, in later years clones of the same. I was always satisfied with those lathes, for a brief time I worked at a company that had a Hardinge Toolroom lathe. That was pretty much the top of the line as far as a lathe goes, the nice part about a Hardinge is that they have a lever that allows your to retract the cross slide quickly and not have to worry about disengaging the half nut and backing the cross slide off manually. An immense help when threading up to a shoulder or into a blind hole. In later years I learned to set-up the threading tool upside down and backwards and run the lathe in reverse when threading a blind hole. An old gunsmith taught me that trick many years ago.

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Bought the Clausing-Colchester 13x36 for $1,200. It is a working machine with the usual accessories and a complete set of collets but the collet chuck is missing. Anyone have one? It was built in 1960. It is filthy and greasy but no rust and the ways seem good.

The sweet thing about this deal is, after considering the $1,000.00 profit I made on the sale of my SB11, I'm only out of pocket $200.00. And it is only a little over one mile from its new home.

The downside is that since it is 5hp 3phase my small rotary converter won't drive it. So I'm searching CL for a larger unit. Anyone have one?

Overall I am very well pleased. Grizzly losses a $4,600 sale.


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Originally Posted by Spanokopitas
Bought the Clausing-Colchester 13x36 for $1,200. It is a working machine with the usual accessories and a complete set of collets but the collet chuck is missing. Anyone have one? It was built in 1960. It is filthy and greasy but no rust and the ways seem good.


My 1967 Clausing 13x36 was $1200 in 2002, came with a quarter ton of tooling, and was so dirty that I could not see the 70's Boeing Seafoam green shop paint. My wife saw it in the carport and was shocked, and said I needed a shop, and she was not going to wait for me to pour the slab. She hired a slab contractor. I framed and sided the shop. She wired the panels and boxes, and I pulled the wires.

It was a mistake to own a worn out old piece of lathe, but I got a shop in the deal. Now there is a Chinese lathe in there.


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No doubt the ChiComs do make good machinery.

If this Clausing hadn't presented I would most likely be in line for a new Grizz. Especially if my livelihood depended upon it.

I'm an amateur amateur hobby machinist and love to breath new life into old iron. Also I do a lot of repairs to our farm equipment.


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I have bought, fixed, sold a number of old American lathes for gunsmithing.

I have paid for a number of old American mills for gunsmithing.

The current marketplace of supply and demand makes old lathes for gunsmithing as impractical as everyone using 1950s cars like Cuba.

An old lathe on today's market is a poor investment for gunsmithing.

But the marketplace for used American mills for gunsmithing is like buying 5 year old American cars for commuting.

A used American mill surplused by industry, for gunsmithing is very competitive with buying a new Chinese mill.

This is the kind of thing some people cannot understand.
"But I got a good one!"

"Did you go to Vegas and tripled your money, too? Are you telling everyone to go to Vegas?"



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Two manufacturers who produce quality equipment are Supermax and Emco Maier (NOT ENCO). I have used their equipment for many years and have yet to find anything better. Emco Maier is rather pricey purchased new, but well worth the effort to seek out on the secondary market. As for DRO's for the last 30 years of my career I have used TRAK DRO's from Southwest Industries. Like the Trav-A-Dial that many old timers are familiar with, the TRAK uses a rotary encoder rather than a glass scale. Less bulky, easier to mount and reliable if kept clean. Keeping them clean consists of replacing the reader head wiper/seals occasionally and NOT using compress air anywhere around them.

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A good piece of equipment when it comes to collets is the collet check manufactured by Bison (Polish), it looks like a lathe check and mounts on the spindle nose of the lathe. Collets are loosened/tightened with a chuck key just like a 3 jaw chuck. Bison brand is reasonably priced and there are knock offs sold by the catalog suppliers, I have seen them on sale for $99.00. You need to purchase a back plate to match the type of spindle nose of your lathe but it is stall a cost effective accessory to give your lathe collet capability.

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Originally Posted by gunswizard
rather than a glass scale. ..


Yes, I have a replacement glass scale and TTL encoder en route from China right now. The original from China, installed with the DRO by Machine Tools On line in Pittsburgh, failed in 5.5 years.


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Originally Posted by Clarkm
I have bought, fixed, sold a number of old American lathes for gunsmithing.

I have paid for a number of old American mills for gunsmithing.

The current marketplace of supply and demand makes old lathes for gunsmithing as impractical as everyone using 1950s cars like Cuba.

An old lathe on today's market is a poor investment for gunsmithing.

But the marketplace for used American mills for gunsmithing is like buying 5 year old American cars for commuting.

A used American mill surplused by industry, for gunsmithing is very competitive with buying a new Chinese mill.

This is the kind of thing some people cannot understand.
"But I got a good one!"

"Did you go to Vegas and tripled your money, too? Are you telling everyone to go to Vegas?"



I'm not a gunsmith, never have been, never will be.

I'm an amateur, amateur machinist who repairs his own farm equipment and occasionally makes a (very) few bucks machining parts for friends and neighbors.

I've been to Vegas...


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Originally Posted by gunswizard
A good piece of equipment when it comes to collets is the collet check manufactured by Bison (Polish), it looks like a lathe check and mounts on the spindle nose of the lathe. Collets are loosened/tightened with a chuck key just like a 3 jaw chuck. Bison brand is reasonably priced and there are knock offs sold by the catalog suppliers, I have seen them on sale for $99.00. You need to purchase a back plate to match the type of spindle nose of your lathe but it is stall a cost effective accessory to give your lathe collet capability.


Thank you.

I went to their site and might do business with them. First I want to get the lathe on site and make sure the collet chuck isn't hiding somewhere. I have a feeling it may be in the mess surrounding the machine and will magically appear when we move it.


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That lathe chucks that I have owned are Buck, Rohm, interstate, and whatever comes on a lathe from china.

You can see the price herarchy in a couple pages here:
Buck
Bison
Gibralter
Interstate
Chinese generic

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=440&PMCTLG=00

The disadvantage of the Interstate compared to the three levels above it is, in 3 jaw or 6 jaw, that it only has one key hole. Kind of hard to rotate the lathe spindle by hand when in a low gear.

But as far as gunsmithing goes, my dial through 6 jaw intestate zeros as well as my dial through 6 jaw Buck Chuck.




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I found the collet chuck except it is not a "chuck" which is why we could not find it. It is a drawbar. Anyway I now have a complete set of collets from .0625" to 1.125" and the means to employ them.

Can't wait to get this beast moved in and cleaned up.

I have a line on a NIB 7.5hp rotary converter that I think I'll buy.


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Got the rotary converter. The lathe is cleaned up and running. I am well pleased.


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