Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Alaska Flight service--it is buyer beware

Gents:
I'm not sure of the regulations for posting here and I will be vague to avoid a "flame war" but, after reading this, you can email me for details.

I booked a caribou hunt for last August from a service I've been with three years prior. Long story short, I signed a contract that if my party shot too many animals we would be charged $1500 for an "extra meat haul." In the end we were charged this fee but no extra flight was needed!

Three email from me to clear up the matter were ignored by the owner. Three requests by the BBB to mediate the matter were also ignored by the owner. Two letters from the Attorney General's office have been ignored.


I have a good lawyer (you Alaskans will all recognize his name) and he is assisting me me in fillsing out small claims paperwork which we will file upon receipt of the final letter from the AG's office.

This flight service also charges different rates for different clients. We were charged high as my two friends on the trip were an MD and a CEO of a big corporation. Others were charged far less, some as much as 50% less. Some have the "extra meat haul" and are not charged. All this is documented.

I have posted this on my website and will share with any of you who contact me.
Cheers, and be careful. This is a bad outfit.
Cal[spoiler][/spoiler]

You need to name names.

This has no value otherwise.


...and sorry for your troubles.

http://www.calpappas.com/search/label/Updates


His blog names 70 North FWIW. Will be interesting to see how it plays out in court I guess.

This site isn't run by an Alaskan outfitter... it's OK to name names...

70� North, can't say I'm too surprised.

OK Gents. The Alaska Outdoors won't allow any negative posts. If it's OK here, all the better. The flight service is 70 North Air Taxi. Bob Gill and Mike McCrary are the owners who have snubbed me, the BBB, and the AG. Shortly I will file with the small claims courts and it will be interesting to see if Bob and Mike snub the courts. As soon as the final letter comes from the AG I will file. A great attorney has found past case law that will be of great help in my situation. It is so simple. The contract calls for a charge if an extra flight is taken. But, no flight AND a charge.

For some, Bob and Mike charge $2000 for the drop off and pickup. Others are charged $1750 and still others are charged $750 per hour--which equates to about 1/2 of the flat fee.

I will keep you all posted. Thanks for your interest.
Cal

They can't handle the truth.

I'd think it can't happen to charge IF you have extra flights, but since you didn't, they can't charge.

As to charging some one rate and others another, I doubt that stands up at all.

Good luck!

Sounds fishy to me. Flight time is charged by the hour.



After 4 years as a return client, did you happen to mention to them as to where you wanted to be transported to, or did they pick the spot?



So the 1500.00 cost is split between your "party"?


Were you able to harvest caribou this last year?

That depends, most air services I've ever flown with charge a flat rate depending on location and number of passengers.

Exactly. What changed?



This means something, though I'm not sure what.

Chicken. You're just jealous cause you don't appreciate the fun of calling up random air service operators and giving them an earful.

Nothing, it's been that way ever since I started doing fly in hunts, which has been probably 20 years or so.

Thanks for your input, gentlemen. To answer your questions.
70 North charges a flat rate, not by the hour--for some of us.
The flat rate varies between customers.
The hourly rate was charged to six the week prior to my hunt--price was about 1/2 of what we paid.
We did get our caribou but did not exceed the weight limits for the return to base. However, we were charged for an extra flight as called out in the contract as an "extra meat haul."
The flight service set us down in a vacant area, away from other hunters. They picked the spot. In the area we wanted to go, in the Brooks Range, was void of caribou.
You gents can see the details of the situation on the Updates page of calpappas.com. Also some of my caribou taken with double rifles are on the double rifles and hunting trophies page.
By traveling with two gents who are upper income, it is only a guess we were charged a higher rate than others. Only speculation as to why, but a fact as to the prices charged.
I paid the fee and later split it with one other member of my party. If I get the refund in the court case, I will (of course) send 50% of it to my mate. As the contract was in my name, the complaint and other communication is in my name.
Again, thanks for your comments.
Cal

I have made dozens and dozens of fly in hunts in Alaska with many different flying services. (over a dozen in the Brooks Range and on the North Slope alone). I have never flown with any flying service that is more honest and was treated more fair than Seventy Degrees North. I have flown with close to a hundred small plane pilots and it is my observation that Mike and Bob are excellent pilots with safety as their major concern. Their care for their clients before and after the schedule trips is above and beyond what is expected.
I don't understand when a person agrees to the terms of the cost of the transportation for a hunting trip and the service was provided as stated in the agreement, then complain afterwards.

I think it was clear, they get charged extra for extra trips. Those extras never happened or were needed. But still they were charged.

If thats the case, thats a BIG problem.

Interesting that Samson as a new member just happens to pick this subject to do his first post . . . his motive for being here?

Samson:
Read my post. I was charged for an extra meat haul but the extra flight was not needed or flown. I was charged the $1500 but no flight. That is a problem. I tried to contact Mike and he ignored all three of my attempts. He and Bob ignored three contacts from the BBB. They also snubbed the Attorney General. So, what is it you don't understand? If I can be more clear, please let me know. To simplify, if you were charged for two flights but only took one, would you have a problem?

I'm far from rich I emailed 70 north last yr they told me $2,000 a person wtf and extra for a meat haul. Needless to say I will go a different route... At one time when 70 north was getting back into the game 09-10 they were charging $1500 a flight. mike strahan was really pushing people towards 70 north as well. Far as Samson probably one of the owners from 70north.

Well this isn't AOD so better put on your big boy britches over here... [bleep] they were charged for a meat haul that never happened that's what op is complaining about. 70 north got greedy and are going to pay for it hell already a bunch of sheep hunters that are cussing them..

Yup, believe Strahan if humor is your game...

Are you Mike, or Bob?

I would guess Samson's post is Bob or Mike, or someone they asked to make a glowing post on their first time on the forum. As far as care before and after the hunt, in my experience that is not the case. My party and I were told this year we had to stay away from the office as two groups of paleontologists were in camp and their comfort was a priority. We could only come over to use the outhouse but could not come in the office for snacks, water, or food. The camp manager, Mark, let us sleep in a shed with a diesel stove and it was nice to be warm. Mark also told us funny stories of the two groups look in for evidence of the dinosaurs die off the scientists were looking for, how they were arguing between themselves and agreed not to carry guns. I my experience for four years, 70 North is a high volume business, in and out as quick as possible. One gent emailed me that Bob wrecked his 206 last fall but I don't have confirmation on this. Money is the first issue and that is why I was charged for a flight that was not taken. Samson's last sentence shows a lack of understanding or a plain bias. We agreed to the terms, and it was Bob and Mike how violated those terms, not us. We would have gladly paid for an extra flight if it was actually flown.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

That was Mark Richards aka bushrat on Alaska forums that you talked with...

Yes, it was Mark Richards. He wrote a rosy reply about how great it was to have me in camp and our successful hunt. He also BS'ed a bit about us leaving him a good tip and who much it was appreciated. Believe me, we didn't leave him a tip. I have no grudge against Mark as he was only doing what his bosses wanted him to and prior to the hunt Mark told us the conditions of the extra meat haul. In fact his quotes will be used in court, as he spoke directly to the three of us, and he knew we may not need the extra haul. Mike, without knowing the weight of our return, immediately told us we owed him $1500 for the extra haul.

And, a general question. Why will not Alaska Outdoor Forums allow any negative comments? Is it to protect their advertising?

Cheers,
Cal

Some here can answer that better than me... But in short yes to protect advertiser on that forum... That site is slowly fading away less peope going there posting re site owner has killed that forum it will only get worse..

How could it possibly get worse? Years ago they had a paid moderator claiming to be a "ballistics engineer" that knew NOTHING about spin dynamics... I believe Murphy is still there and proves constantly he has not learned a thing.

Me, my family and friends have been flying with 70 North since the first year they started flying from Happy Valley. I consider Mike, Bob and Mark friends. I'm a private pilot myself as well as an A&P mechanic, so I know a little about what it takes to both fly and to operate aircraft from a remote location. I just this week received an insurance quote of 14K for insurance on a Super Cub for personal use so I can't even imagine what their cost are, but I'm sure it is astronomical. Flying hunters for a month or so I'm sure only makes up a fraction of what it takes to make a flying business work from such a remote location.

They have always went what I consider to be above and beyond when both flying us and making sure we were cared for while waiting to be flown in or out.

In the last 12 years I have flown with transporters from all over the state and IMHO 70 North does as good or better job than most of them out there.

I have seen them turn Caribou hunters away in years where the bou were simply not around yet and that is far more than many would do. Most of the other transporters I have used would simply fly you out for a paid camping trip.

They provide transportation, not guide services so if you ask to be taken some place to hunt sheep and fail to kill one,,, well that would hardly be their fault.

Mr Cal,, your complaint would hold much more validity if in every place you post your grievance, you would simply state your beef and not provide links to "your website" one could believe that you are using drama to drive views to your site??

Anyone that has ever done business knows that it is not possible to make each and every customer happy and the one unhappy customer will make more noise than a thousand happy ones.

Mr Cal, it is regrettable that you were less than satisfied with the trip you had with 70 North. I can only say that my experience with them has always been very enjoyable and I look forward to seeing them all each fall.

My Son and I will be again using their service this fall and IMHO, trusting them to fly the one person on this earth I love the most says more than any words I could share here.

As to the reasons they have changed their pricing practices I can only speculate because I have not ask,, but I do know on numerous occasions hunters have had a herd of caribou come near their camp after they called for pick up and lacked the discipline to not kill several more. I'm sure any hunter can see how this would have a ripple effect on others waiting to be flown from the field when they now have to wait for the group needing both extra flights and extra time to butcher more caribou.

As far as unhappy sheep hunters goes,, not everyone that takes a rifle into the mountains are "sheep hunters" I have always seemed to find one or two.













[img]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/stid2677/Sheep%202014/P8060054_zpsf025d4b4.jpg[/img]

Stephen:
Thanks for your comments and nice sheep.
My only "beef" is to be charged for a flight not taken. No one, including Bob and Mike, the manager Mark, nor the couple of gents who support 70 North have even attempted to offer an explanation. I bring folks up from the lower 48 to hunt caribou and was happy with 70's service. I offered to bring up blue board insulation to Bob and I offered Mike that I could shop for him at Costco and haul up the food when I drove up. No problems with my attitude toward then until this year. We didn't over shoot caribou and an extra flight was not needed. We didn't hold up any other hunters waiting to get out of the field. I directed folks to my website as the details were there as some forums (such as AK Outdoors) won't allow any negative posts. I sent Mike three emails to discuss the situation and all were ignored. My next step was the BBB and AG and they were ignored, also. I'm sure if you were charged for a flight that was not taken you would not be too pleased.
Anyway, thanks for your comments. It is always interesting to read other points of view.
Cheers, and good luck hunting with you and your son.
Cal

After my conversations with 70DN, they're the last outfit I would hire to fly me to any hunting location.

Cal he is one of the moderators over on Alaska forums so ask him the queston why no negative stuff on transporter/guides. he avoided the whole question on why you were charged for a flight that didnt happen then try to twist it as a way for you to push people to your website. Anyhow have a great day. good to see posters from Alaska forums post over here.

I was a mod on AOD, but have resigned. I do not know why they do not allow negative comments, that has always been the rule and I simply followed those rules as both a member and mod there. The reasons I saw posted over the years are that much like this complaint is they only represent one side of the argument and while Alaska is a large state, the business community is small. The reason I did not address the OPs complaint about paying for a flight he did not receive is I have no knowledge of what went down between them. I simply posted my personal experience with 70 North. Anyone that knows my knows I'm a straight guy that tells it like I see it and my opinion is not for sale.

Stephen:
I certainly have no problem with your opinion or your thoughts in the matter. I'm pleased your experiences with 70N are good, as were mine prior to this year. I can't offer an apology for directing folks to my website as double rifles and Africa are my passions and one of life's greatest pleasures has been meeting folks from all over the world with like interests. However, I doubt any double rifle would serve as a sheep rifle!
Cheers, mate.
Cal
PS. I, too, shoot straight and my description of the events that transpired are factual but also documented and witnessed.

When you have a blog and invite shooters from the lower 48 to hunt; they should pay the tab anyways. Doctors and CEO's have all kind of money. Guides shouldn't have to pay for anything.

I am not a guide and can't be paid for guiding services. I invite gents up from the lower 48 as friends and I pay my own way. They stay at my home, I direct them to local fishing, and they shoot my double rifles or I set up a double rifle shoot for them to attend. And, we go caribou hunting. That's what friends do. The folks I've met through my website as well as those that buy my books and read my articles become friends. At least that's my take on things.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. The quote is not my quote, but I assume your comments were directed towards me.

Yeah OK, whatever you say. But I wouldn't pay for chit.

But, then there are people that would play cops for free too I guess.


BTW, I've read your blog, can I stay at your house now friend?

As Cal pointed out, correctly, not "paying for chit" would make you a guide and that would not be legal...

Making money is not the top thing for everyone.

I invite friends on hunts down here. But I pay my own way and always have. Don't feel its fair to have others pay my way...

Never mind the guide implications...

Cal is starting to sound a little fishy to me. Is he they type that invites guys up, and then gets them to pay for everything (food, fuel, etc), and does this fake "guiding" to get free fly out hunts every year?

Perhaps the troopers should investigate his ass.

JFC, really?

It's getting to a point where a guy can't even talk about his hunts anymore without being accused of illegal activity.

Whatever happened to "benefit of the doubt"?

Yeah, all he's doing is "talking" about his hunt. We talk about our hunts all the time and I've never seen anybody on here being accused of illegal activity.

The guy writes articles and books for money, and is obviously a huge self promoter of his blog. The guys who buy his books get invited up for a guided, but not guided caribou hunt, as "friends"? Yeah, nothing fishy going on there. Do you think that a person promoting a book, website, or articles by taking guys he met off the internet hunting and providing a place for them to stay is profiting off Alaskan fish and game and be licensed to do so?

BTW, the "friend" thing gets used here in SE frequently. Troopers have been chasing around "friend" guides and have made a few cases in my area. This is nothing new. And I'm not talking about guys who have legitimate friends who come up. That's fine.

How do you know they are not legitimate friends? All we know is what's written in this thread and on his website.

I for one hope they are. Each animal crossing state lines is a 2 year minimum sentence per lacy act violation. Of course the first one to turn states evidence gets off scott free

He said specifically, written on this forum, that they were people who had bought his book. They are people who he has done business with or is looking to currently do business with.

So what?

I've bought books and videos from a guy in Fairbanks that runs an outdoor website and have been hunting with him.

You guys go ahead and alert the troopers, I'm out of this one.

Oh, Boy. Larry's in trouble now.

"Cal is starting to sound a little fishy to me. Is he they type that invites guys up, and then gets them to pay for everything (food, fuel, etc), and does this fake "guiding" to get free fly out hunts every year? Perhaps the troopers should investigate his ass."



Calvin:
Where did you get the notion others pay for my hunting trips? Being the optimist I will speculate you made an assumption that is incorrect. Bing a writer takes me into contact with many around the nation and the world. I've published five books. Two are out of print. They sell well in the very small world of double rifles but, trust me, sales are far behind those of Palin. Troopers have dropped in on my camp before and they are gentlemen and I've had no problems with them nor they with me. As to hunting with friends, allow me to put it in perspective. In the last four years seven gents have come hunting with me--both from Alaska and from the Lower 48. A few more than that number have flown up to visit one of the double rifle shoots. Some rent a car and hotel in the city and a few stay at my home. The folks I've become acquainted with have become friends. I've hunted Australia three times and Africa 14. Many times I stay with friends while there and they stay at my home when here. Some are Americans who I shared a hunting camp with overseas. But when they come here they pay their own way and I pay mine. Again I have no clue where you got the idea I was guiding for a free trip. If it was an assumption that was in error, I hope I cleared things up. If it was to change the focus of the original intent of this thread, well, it was a noble effort. Perhaps your are good friends with Bob and Mike?

"Yeah, all he's doing is "talking" about his hunt. We talk about our hunts all the time and I've never seen anybody on here being accused of illegal activity.

The guy writes articles and books for money, and is obviously a huge self promoter of his blog. The guys who buy his books get invited up for a guided, but not guided caribou hunt, as "friends"? Yeah, nothing fishy going on there. Do you think that a person promoting a book, website, or articles by taking guys he met off the internet hunting and providing a place for them to stay is profiting off Alaskan fish and game and be licensed to do so?

BTW, the "friend" thing gets used here in SE frequently. Troopers have been chasing around "friend" guides and have made a few cases in my area. This is nothing new. And I'm not talking about guys who have legitimate friends who come up. That's fine."

Calvin:
Promotion, either self or otherwise is not a bad thing. It costs nothing to view my website and I've just started putting videos on there of my double rifle experiences. Again, no charge--I just like begin involved in the double rifle world as it is my passion. Yes, I sell a few books but it is a very limited audience I am targeting. And again, I profit nothing from any time folks have visited me and the friends who have come up remain so. In closing, Calvin, don't get wound too tight over incorrect speculation. In turn, my original post was not speculation but documented and witnessed fact. Should you be in the area in late May, please stop by and join us for a double rifle shoot. Where can one see 20-30 of the finest firearms on earth in one place, calibers from .300 up to .600, and on to the mighty 4-bore? And, shoot them, too. In the interim, enjoy my site and the rifles and trophies shown.

Let me add one more thing so you don't continue to think I am a "guide" who gets hunts for free. The the last four years I've taken a few caribou (with a .450-400) and one moose (with a .600). In 1988-91 I shot a few caribou and two moose, and in 2003-4 one caribou and one grizzly (.450 no2). I don't hunt much in Alaska. Just once in a while for something to do with a double rifle.

Anyway, I hope I cleared the air a bit as to my activities. My "ass" is not worried about any investigation.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

Well i havent flown with 70 degrees and likely wont now that they sound fishy. But i dont see the problem charging hunters differently. I mean you sell different ways. Cold phone calls might get a hourly rate while sports show prices or promotions would be flat rate. And its common for charters up here to charge different rates depending on the risk of the landing strip. Personally i will only fly flat rate no pickup charge. So i do a lot of walk in hunts! Oh and i think the owner who fkes positive posts and doesnt have the guts to use his real name is a coward.

"As far as unhappy sheep hunters goes,, not everyone that takes a rifle into the mountains are "sheep hunters" I have always seemed to find one or two".

Yes, you have found a few. You fly up to the Brooks and shoot rat's every year to stroke your ego. You have done nothing special and you are nothing special. Let me guess you had a hard time finding one to shoot this year, Am I correct? And if you did you had to count rings. I'm not saying one shouldnt shoot a legal ram but come on man atleast save some for your grand kids and those who have not had the opertunity to hunt them.
I too own a SC and insurance for wheels is just over 2400 bucks a year for 80k worth of hull coverage , double that if your on floats.

I will however agree with you on the fact the 70 N are good people.

Extra flight ='s extra $
No extra flight ='s no extra dollars, numbnuts !

I also find it unbelievably coincidental that this was/is your first post on this site !

Guess I shoulda kept reading, before starting to type.

It seems this would be as easy to take care of as disputing the charge with your credit card company, they will nearly always back you up based on your word alone.

Gatogrizz27:
Thanks for the thought, however 70North is a cash only, no receipt business (at least in my experience). I've only one hand written receipt and none for the extra 1500$ I was charged. I've been with them four years.
I tried to discuss with the owners but no luck. The BBB and AG and no luck, either, however a new name appeared on their LLC and the Attorney General will contact that gent for resolution.
Cheers,
Cal

That's unfortunate, it seems odd to me that they would expect clients to travel as far as many do with that much cash on their person. Did they refuse to fly you out unless you paid the extra $1,500? What would they do if you lost your wallet or didn't happen to bring enough? It's not as if this is some hole in the wall restaurant, credit cards are the norm nowadays, even out in the boonies.

While it is perfectly legal to do business in cash, given their reputation here a mention of the IRS might be enough to sway them to refund your non-existent flight. I absolutely despise fighting with people over my money, and I tend to get rather nasty about it if they ignore me repeatedly.

Having cash in the Alaskan bush is very common. One might almost say "normal."

Gatorgrizz:
The $1500 charge was after the flights to bring us in, but there was no extra meat haul. We disputed the charge but the manager was firm that we owed the money. We paid it for several reasons: I always want to be on the right side of the law and didn't want to be stopped by the troopers on the 750-mile drive home, we needed some gas from the flight service as they asked me to drive an hour farther north to save them flight time and that put my tank a bit low. Third, is they possibly could have held my meat and antlers. Anyway, it is better to work this through the courts as this is the only option remaining due to the lack of communication from 70North. Between prior case law and emails from Mike and the manager's words to the three of us it should work out fine. Also, I have spoken with the IRS.

I agree with your last sentence. The BBB, AG, any myself made 9 attempts that were all ignored and one gent on the hunt called and was hung up on twice. His third call was taken and he took notes on the convoluted explanation.
Cheers,
Cal

Who would pay for services and get no reciept, cash or not?

Pretty much would leave it as your word vs their word what was charged vs what was paid....

I just would use anotehr service no matter how good they might be.

Its one thing to supposedly overcharge, its another to be dumb enough to pay without any proof of paying....

Gentlemen:
The matter of my flight with 70 North Air Taxi has been resolved to my 100% satisfaction. I will make no further posts on the issue.
Thank you all.
Cal

Very nicely done and good on you for taking the high road.