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I had a wild hair and decided to get my TC Hawken out and try to shoot a Jack Rabbit a couple weeks ago. I blew some smoke at them but did not do much damage to the population! But, it renewed my interest in the old smoke pole and got me to shooting again. I thought I'd go out and shoot off a bench last weekend and see if it was me or the gun. I still don't know because the wind was blowing about 20 mph and those old round balls and wind don't go together very well. What I did notice was that my eyes are not quite what they used to be and that a Peep sight may be in order. So off to Sportsman's where they have next to nothing in Traditional Muzzleloaders.....seems the world has gone in-line and the side hammers are nearly a thing of the past. T/C completely eliminated the Hawkens from their line - what? Too bad in my opinion, packing the old Hawkin makes one feel like a trapper in the 1830's - not exactly the same feeling I get with a plastic stocked, scoped in-line with 3 pellets and a sabot and pistol bullets that rivals a 30-30. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but like I said before it's been a while since I had the old soot burner out (like 15 years...) so I have some catching up to do. Anyone else out there still like the old style or are we a dying breed?
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Campfire Ranger
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T/C got bought by S&W, and that was the end of that.
I prefer my traditional gun (though the inline gets a lot of use as it has for years). My next one will likely be a custom or semi-custom flintlock.
There aren't as many of us out there as there used to be, and with the lack of good traditional guns on the common market, there will be less and less each year.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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I have 3 sidelocks, and love them! Just cannot figure out why people think they will not shoot well. 2 of mine have scopes in offset mounts, and will shoot as well as I can hold. My eyes suffer from old age as well, but if the light is good, I can still do well. I am not totally Dan'l Boone though - I shoot 777, and mostly Hornady XTP's. That combo has been accurate, and very effective at killing deer.
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Campfire Ranger
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I got to admit - that buggy rifle in 32 would make a dandy small game rifle as well.
Thin barrel by comparison - short lock time.
I've been sketching on graph paper like a sunabitch since we talked about it.
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Campfire Ranger
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You have the barrel. You know the action that would work. Buy the action and let the rest figure itself out.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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I like the Ky Rifle in 45 cal
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Campfire Ranger
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doing this one from scratch, bruh.
Have spring steel, Mapp gas, and files.
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Campfire Tracker
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I prefer caplock rifles, patched round balls and real black powder. I don't have an inline and don't intend to buy one. So, traditional muzzloaders aren't dead at my house.
μολὼν λαβέ
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Buying Black Powder is not a small feat in itself. Pyrodex is all over but the real stuff is hard to get. I suppose that is fine with me as I get more shots with Pyrodex between barrel scrubs. Still make a big cloud of smoke and puts a silly grin on my face.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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I put a V peep from RMC on my Lyman flintlock. Check out their online catalog. http://www.rmcsports.com/catalog.htm
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Pyrodex...... Still make a big cloud of smoke and puts a silly grin on my face. Yeah, but you don't get that wonderful rotten egg smell.  I have muzzleloaders of many types, sidelocks, inlines, even smokeless. I like 'em all. This past year I pulled my original Pattern '53 Enfield out of the safe to use for the limited hunting I was able to do. Unfortunately nothing stood still long enough for me to line up that tiny front blade on. To me the sights are the limiting factor with "traditional" caplock rifles. I can't shoot an iron sighted inline any better than my P53, however a deer within a hundred yards is in trouble if it holds still long enough.
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Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes."
szihn
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That V peep looks interesting. Did you use the fiber front or the stock front?
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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My 58cal CVA Hawken from 100 yards. Tell me THAT doesn't get you wanting to shoot a sidelock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S12L8F5uPg
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There are still plenty of traditional muzzle loaders around. We just don't hang out in the same places where the modern stuff is.
Google traditional muzzle loader and you can find plenty of activity.
There are also plenty of clubs at the local level. We are out there and active if you look you can find us.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke 1795
"Give me liberty or give me death"
Patrick Henry 1775
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I got to admit - that buggy rifle in 32 would make a dandy small game rifle as well.
Thin barrel by comparison - short lock time.
I've been sketching on graph paper like a sunabitch since we talked about it. doing this one from scratch, bruh.
Have spring steel, Mapp gas, and files.
I have a .36 Buggy Rifle, I'm thinking of selling if you change your mind. It would be pretty simple to re-barrel or re-line to .32.
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Anyone else out there still like the old style or are we a dying breed? The numbers are definitely dropping. We hunt in PA that has a flintlock-only season, which forces people to stay more traditional, although you can buy flintlocks with camo synthetic stocks and made to shoot pellets. But, there are still plenty who feel the historical connection with traditional muzzleloaders is more important than just another opportunity to hunt. I'm thinking of building a flintlock with my son and have been looking st companies like Track of the Wolf, Jim Chambers and Pecatonica River. There are far more options to build quality rifles yourself than there used to be. With all of those options, there must be more of us that we think. Perhaps, that is a direct results of fewer commercial rifle options.
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No, but you have to build or buy an import or custom. Lyman rifles are nice for the money but are Italian, I think.
The guy who said finding BP is hard is right, but 777 works okay and is easier to light than Pyrodex, I think.
What fresh Hell is this?
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I still shoot a flintlock longrifle.....while wearing full buckskins....each year. Guess that's kind of traditional.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
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I would say No to the dead theory .
I also wouldn’t judge so much numbers of hunters as a gage as the numbers of muzzle loading hunters has always been low in comparison . Enter the modern inline and you have a boost . But just like with Archery, large numbers of compound hunters does not equate to the dying off of the traditional hunters .
While I do believe there is a reduction of strictly traditional muzzle loading shooters , I really thing what your seeing is more of a customer demand .
IE . In the 70’s there were many different production style guns on the market . People were getting all caught up in the centennial. Holly weird was cranking out fur trade movies …….. But what was also happening is that those people were getting interested in history to a degree .. So even though the buck skinning movement was going strong , inside that movement you had folks , digging , reading , researching and finding out that the production market was very much lacking in authenticity and in quality . Thus companies started to fall away . Eventually leaving only a couple to chose from . Thus as the modern movement came about, the customer base moved with it .
However at the very same time , the market for more authenticity and higher quality was growing to the point if you look around , its not hard to find someone who is either a builder or traditional gunsmith .the options of the guns to chose from is simply astounding.
Do they cost more . Yep . Ironically comparatively to wage , not much more then 200 years ago
Whole companies have sprung up . From lock makers , casting foundries , barrel makers , trigger makers , stock companies all the way to folks who run small businesses selling parts or completed rifles .
No one that I know is getting rich . But there is no shortage of work .
But that river that is customer demand changes so does they type of work . For the last few years I have seen a real resurgence of folk digging out their old production guns . Rebuilding or having them rebuilt . On the other side of the spectrum , even the custom market is changing in that more and more customers are looking and willing to pay the cost for a truly custom piece fit to them and done by hand . IE more and more people are beginning to make all their own parts by forging , casting . a lot more hand work is being done and frankly the quality of that work is in many cases astounding .
So as another poster said , all one has to do is look around . Do so and you will find a lot more then you think. Most anything from re-enactors who shoot guns ranging from lat 19th century all the way to the match lock of the 16th . Gun builders and smiths who can or do build everything in between . Hunters , Buck skinners and everyday folks who just enjoy shooting . To the long range BP muzzle loading folks .
Its all out there . Most times you just wont find them on forums that deal more to the modern side . For the most part I think we are just to different in the why of it all .
![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/fega20small_zps0913cc7b.jpg)
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Oh and as to BP . Its much the same . While you may not find it by just swinging and walking up to one of the shelves of your local Bass pro or Wal-Mart , its not hard to find if you want it. You just have to look..
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Oh and as to BP . Its much the same . While you may not find it by just swinging and walking up to one of the shelves of your local Bass pro or Wal-Mart , its not hard to find if you want it. You just have to look.. Agreed, I know a few places to buy it, just not in the mainstream, big box stores.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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I am on my third barrel of my TC Hawkin. Last time I sent it in,TC said barrels were getting in short supply, but I know Track Of The Wolf has them.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Check out Dixon Muzzleloading Shop everything you may need for a build. If you are really into it Dixons has a gunmakers fair the last full week of July. You can camp local, and most of the folks you mentioned have their goods for sale. Seminars by top notch builders well worth the trip for the die hard black powder shooter.
There are no problems that cannot be resolved by the suitable application of high explosive.
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A picture is worth a 1,000 words!
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Try being a leftie and looking for muzzle loaders. I have a 50 and a 32. Not dead in my house.
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Yes, they are a thing of the past. That's why we love them.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
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Centershot, I put a fiber optic on the front. The factory original was a white bead.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A few words: 50 yards, offhand. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/8247b090-cc6a-4986-8b60-81cd4ae52f45_zpsvsbreaqk.jpg)
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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I have 7 of them. Thing of the past for many, but not for me.
There is no way to coexist no matter how many bumper stickers there are on Subaru bumpers!
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.54 Jäger ![[Linked Image]](http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/bucktales/IMG_6842.jpg)
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Realy nice your build? I have always wanted a Jager I have seven long guns one.54 two.32s one.50 a.45 one.60 fusil de chase, and a 10ga Dbl. All I load is GOEX or Swiss tried the substitutes just didn't care for them. Their are 30 clubs in Pa. that run monthly BP shoots and rendezvous so traditional Muzzleloading is alive and well in this area. .54 Jäger
There are no problems that cannot be resolved by the suitable application of high explosive.
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No not my build. I wish I had the talent for that.
It's a Stroh gun that I had built several years back.
Swamped Burton barrel, Rifle Shoppe lock. Balances and handles extremely well.
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No not my build. I wish I had the talent for that.
It's a Stroh gun that I had built several years back.
Swamped Burton barrel, Rifle Shoppe lock. Balances and handles extremely well. It's gorgeous! I normally don't like a lot of decoration on guns, but, that's very tastefully done and making me covet!
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.54 Jäger Gorgeous rifle! Also, and just especially for my good friend RWE, can we get another pic of that possibles bag? 
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Ranger
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Also, and just especially for my good friend RWE, can we get another pic of that possibles bag? I hope my eyes are deceiving me, because it looks like a grinner.
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I prefer caplock rifles, patched round balls and real black powder. I don't have an inline and don't intend to buy one. So, traditional muzzloaders aren't dead at my house. Well said, I agree completely +1
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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10 ga RB would turn the lights out.
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Also, and just especially for my good friend RWE, can we get another pic of that possibles bag? I hope my eyes are deceiving me, because it looks like a grinner. Ahh, my roadkill bag. Most certainly. Grinner on elk.  ![[Linked Image]](http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/bucktales/mlf/IMG_6545.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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Also, and just especially for my good friend RWE, can we get another pic of that possibles bag? I hope my eyes are deceiving me, because it looks like a grinner. Ahh, my roadkill bag. Most certainly. Grinner on elk. NICELY done! I like the trap spring knives as well.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Also, and just especially for my good friend RWE, can we get another pic of that possibles bag? I hope my eyes are deceiving me, because it looks like a grinner. Ahh, my roadkill bag. Most certainly. Grinner on elk. Speechless. 
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Also, and just especially for my good friend RWE, can we get another pic of that possibles bag? I hope my eyes are deceiving me, because it looks like a grinner. Ahh, my roadkill bag. Most certainly. Grinner on elk. Speechless. Yeah, it does look really good, doesn't it?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Dixie Gun Works are still in business. From kits to finished rifles. I have a couple .54s, have killed 33 deer so far with my Richland Arms. Shot a squirrel once, looked like he grabbed the tree when I hit him, rattled when I picked him up. To much power maybe 
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Not dead by a long shot. IMHO, it only seems that way because there is a big market for muzzle loaders just to get a jump or extension on deer season. The scopes & inline demand is driven by state regulations. The hunters just want the most practical gun to get the job done.
Yes, there were a lot of semi authentic, cheaper muzzle loaders in the past. Those were mostly purchased by deer hunters. Now that business is gone inline/plastic and scope. I have several old TC's. Solid guns for fair price, but not real nostalgic stuff either. The Lyman guns seem to be as good as Thompson ever was. I think much better.
For the true beliver, there are more and better replicas than ever. And seems the Italian imports still available in more versions than ever. Google Pedersol: Gibbs, Mortimer, authentic muskets.I dont know the quality, but there are dozens of models! The more authentic guns probably tend to cost more, on average. And low production cost more.
How many of you traditional guys use real black powder?
I really wish the states would require true authentic guns and ammo. What is the big challenge with an inline scoped gun? Where to draw the line? I propose: Fixed iron sights, real black powder, lead balls (or bullets no sabot) and guns that look the part.
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Pedersoli makes great stuff.
I've had Lyman and TC. Both work fine, but Lyman looks more authentic.
The TC Hawken isn't much like a Hawken, but except for the staighter buttstock, looks very like some real New England halfstocks I've seen online, down to the crazy trigger guard.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Pedersoli makes great stuff. I can believe that. I only meant I did not know. I also have a 12ga TC shotgun. I forget what they are called. New Englander maybe? I believe that could be had as a spare barrel or a stand alone shotgun, which I got. Someday, I want to have someone install a screw in choke tube. Not very authentic but the wide open pattern is very limiting. I heard TC later offered a choked barrel. I never saw one. I doubt they sold many. It handles very well and I think better than the doubles I looked at over the years.
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Campfire Ranger
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I had a Mortimer .54 flinter that was a peach, once I corrected the flash hole.
I still have a TC Greyhawk, which is the stainless version of the New Englander. Mine is a .50, with a tang peep. Some of those NE shotguns were made with tubes, I believe, but though I still look for them on Ebay from time to time, I've not found one at a decent price. All I need is the barrel.
What fresh Hell is this?
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I have a NE with both .54 rifle and 12ga barrels. Mine doesn't have a choke but I'm sure they did offer them. Only problem with a choke is loading them unless you pull it out every time. I took mine turkey hunting and used a plastic wad with a wrap of electrical tape around the pedals to keep it together longer. Patterned tighter but I never saw a bird to try it on.
Charter Member
Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes."
szihn
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Pedersoli makes great stuff.
True. I have one of their 12ga. sxs shotguns. Came with screw in chokes.(Mossberg 500 chokes fit just fine) The only trouble I had was some misfires when I got it. That was easily fixed by opening the nipples up to 1mm. Known glitch on their caplocks.
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Pedersoli makes some Good and some not so good . Personally I don’t think their quality is what it was and their prices are right there with the custom guns.
One of the issue I think we face is that Society , IMO has moved more to instant gratification / want it now . Its not just traditional muzzleloaders , I see it in the Modern movement as well . How many times have we read on this forum where a shooter posts some very good patterns .
Normally they will post that they used powder X , bullet X , lube X …… only to have someone say that they the bullet is crap and never has shot well for them or the lube doesn’t work …… many times this if followed by a couple pages of peoples poor experience’s during hunting …… .
But no one ever asks about how much time was put in getting to get those results or what the shooter did different so as to get those results . On the slight chance someone does . They then seem to expect to achieve the exact same results instantly .
Myself I have used flintlocks for years and I still get the comment that they don’t work in wet weather and that the ignition is slow .
That comment is correct if we don’t take the time to learn what “WE” need to do so as to make them work reliably in wet weather and fire correctly .
Thus what happens is a reputation has been built based around , poor quality ,lack of knowledge and the in ability /want to gain that knowledge .
Im not trying to insult anyone here , I just find this a good example.
lets use the current comments about screw in chokes .
How many folks know why was it that Cylinder bores held favor for so long , when screw on adjustable chokes, choked bores and jug choking had been around for a very long time but didn’t gain real favor tell the end of the 19th century ?
Why have we for some reason stopped being able to ask .
How they got a choked bore loaded ?
How is it that cylinder bores held the day even in BP cartridge guns well through the Public Trial competitions of 1850 through around 1880‘s continually posting scores well above the choked bore ?
What changed so as to achieve the results we see today with chokes ?
Greener wrote volumes on this very subject ., going into great detail . That information is out there , all we have to do is reach out and grasp it ..
As time has gone on I think the nature is to blame the mechanism instead of possibly human nature.
IE its old and there for wont work as well as something new . / progress is good because its new .
When factually in most cases we are doing nothing but re-inventing the wheel , changing its color ,calling it progress . Yet time and time again history re-lives itself because we forget the past and there for relive it do to so called progress .
Last edited by captchee; 02/08/15.
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My Mortimer was purchased for $430 from Cabelas, something that will give you an idea of the "Vintage". It was well made in all respects.
During the deer season, I talked to a guy using a Pedersoli 1861 that he also shot in competition. He was well pleased with his.
They do make some crazy attempts at inlines, but I've never seen one.
Last edited by Pappy348; 02/08/15.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Wow... an excellent post by Capt. Chee with which I totally agree. I find that often, "progress" is more in one's mind than an actuality-of-life !!! While both of my sons use .50 caliber "in-lines" for deer hunting, you will never see an "in-line" in my gun-safe or anywhere else in the house. I limit my shots to 80 yards or less (preferably "less") with my older, caplock .50 caliber CVA Hawken... more due to my old eyes rather than any inability of my Hawken (1:48 twist) to hit deer further away. Thus my "deer-hunting-load" for the patched Hornady swagged .490" round ball is a relatively small load consisting of 70 grains of Swiss FFFg black powder. However, THAT load gets-the-job-done and will shoot through both sides of a big whitetail buck's "kill-zone". That is as good-as-it-gets in my "book" and puts venison in the freezer every year. I never "fix" something that ain't broke.  Strength & Honor... Ron T.
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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C'mon Ron
Being a stout traditionaist is fine. I love reading muzzleloader history - love to attend reenactment-events. But the actuality in my life says my inlines are:....... more accurate -- more resistant to moisture - can handle more powder -- can shoot a bullet flatter -- can shoot a bullet faster -- less moving parts -- easier to pull a load, then reuse it -- easier to clean with open breech -- easier to inspect -- hotter ignitions...... etc....etc...etc.
I own both sidehammers and inlines. But if you do not see progress with inlines, I'm not sure what your definition of progress is.
Progress is in the harvest and you have a better chance at a harvest (all things considered) with an inline.
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Campfire Kahuna
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There be shooters and there be hunters. Progress has zip to do with that.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Traditional muzzleloading isnt dead, YOU just have to get off your ass and start doing it. Its no harder than any other kind of hunting.
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I've got two .54 caliber Hawken replicas. Ones an older T/C and the other is a Lyman. Both are very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot. I don't use anything but round balls and real black powder. And I still hunt with them sometimes even when it's regular rifle season, just for fun and the nostalgic sentiment.
Personally, I wouldn't own a modern in-line type rifle. And I don't really think they should be allowed in Black Powder only seasons, IMO.
Last edited by chlinstructor; 02/14/15.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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they ain't dead,i've sold a truck load of them to members here.
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C'mon Ron
Being a stout traditionaist is fine. I love reading muzzleloader history - love to attend reenactment-events. But the actuality in my life says my inlines are:....... more accurate -- more resistant to moisture - can handle more powder -- can shoot a bullet flatter -- can shoot a bullet faster -- less moving parts -- easier to pull a load, then reuse it -- easier to clean with open breech -- easier to inspect -- hotter ignitions...... etc....etc...etc.
I own both sidehammers and inlines. But if you do not see progress with inlines, I'm not sure what your definition of progress is.
Progress is in the harvest and you have a better chance at a harvest (all things considered) with an inline. ***************************************************************** Every fact you mention is absolutely true. However, who said that "progress" is the golden chalice or something we traditionalists even want? My thinking is "Whatever makes your motor run or floats yer boat"... and if it's in-lines, then so be it. However, for me, I like the traditional side-locks, the possible "handicaps" they bring with 'em, the aroma of REAL black powder and the limitations the side-locks shootin' patched, round lead rifle balls automatically put on the hunter/shooter. I've got 'scoped center-fire magnums and have hunted with a .338 Win. Mag. in a custom pre-'64 Model 70 for 40 years. Then I got tired of its recoil and it's almost-automatic "sure" kill even at extended ranges, so now I take my chances and don't mind the extra "work" involved in getting CLOSER before taking the shot... or even passing up a shot sometimes. Sure... I have had to "pass" on some nice bucks, but that's ok... it's MY choice, isn't it... just as it's your choice to use what amounts to a 'scoped in-line with "almost" center-fire rifle ballistics during muzzle-loader season. And, as long as that's "legal"... then so be it and good luck to you and I sincerely mean that, my friend. But for me... I'd rather do it the way I'm doing it... and you and my 2 sons can do it the way you and they prefer doing it. So what's wrong with that? Butttt... even THINKING that traditional muzzle-loaders are "dead"??? Nayyyy... no way, José. Strength & Honor... Ron T.
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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.54 Jäger Sweet Jag!
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![[Linked Image]](http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq103/jtwodogs/HPIM0284.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq103/jtwodogs/HPIM0278.jpg) The first is a .62 flint rifle, from a Jim Chambers kit. James river I believe. The second is an original circa 1870 I found lanquishing in a defunct gun store, bought it for a $100 bill, restored the barrel to .40 cal via Ed Rayle. out of WV. They both are a hoot to shoot.
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lets use the current comments about screw in chokes .
How many folks know why was it that Cylinder bores held favor for so long , when screw on adjustable chokes, choked bores and jug choking had been around for a very long time but didn’t gain real favor tell the end of the 19th century ?
Why have we for some reason stopped being able to ask .
How they got a choked bore loaded ?
How is it that cylinder bores held the day even in BP cartridge guns well through the Public Trial competitions of 1850 through around 1880‘s continually posting scores well above the choked bore ?
What changed so as to achieve the results we see today with chokes ?
Greener wrote volumes on this very subject ., going into great detail . That information is out there , all we have to do is reach out and grasp it ..
I would appreciate a brief tutorial on what it takes to get good patterns from a smooth bore shotgun. Of if not that, more direction toward the secrets of the past?. Who or what is Greener? What would be a reasonable expectation? An honest IC pattern?
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C'mon Ron
Being a stout traditionaist is fine. I love reading muzzleloader history - love to attend reenactment-events. But the actuality in my life says my inlines are:....... more accurate -- more resistant to moisture - can handle more powder -- can shoot a bullet flatter -- can shoot a bullet faster -- less moving parts -- easier to pull a load, then reuse it -- easier to clean with open breech -- easier to inspect -- hotter ignitions...... etc....etc...etc.
I own both sidehammers and inlines. But if you do not see progress with inlines, I'm not sure what your definition of progress is.
Progress is in the harvest and you have a better chance at a harvest (all things considered) with an inline. ***************************************************************** Every fact you mention is absolutely true. However, who said that "progress" is the golden chalice or something we traditionalists even want? My thinking is "Whatever makes your motor run or floats yer boat"... and if it's in-lines, then so be it. However, for me, I like the traditional side-locks, the possible "handicaps" they bring with 'em, the aroma of REAL black powder and the limitations the side-locks shootin' patched, round lead rifle balls automatically put on the hunter/shooter. I've got 'scoped center-fire magnums and have hunted with a .338 Win. Mag. in a custom pre-'64 Model 70 for 40 years. Then I got tired of its recoil and it's almost-automatic "sure" kill even at extended ranges, so now I take my chances and don't mind the extra "work" involved in getting CLOSER before taking the shot... or even passing up a shot sometimes. Sure... I have had to "pass" on some nice bucks, but that's ok... it's MY choice, isn't it... just as it's your choice to use what amounts to a 'scoped in-line with "almost" center-fire rifle ballistics during muzzle-loader season. And, as long as that's "legal"... then so be it and good luck to you and I sincerely mean that, my friend. But for me... I'd rather do it the way I'm doing it... and you and my 2 sons can do it the way you and they prefer doing it. So what's wrong with that? Butttt... even THINKING that traditional muzzle-loaders are "dead"??? Nayyyy... no way, José. Strength & Honor... Ron T. Well said Ron. I have modern rifles, and compound bows as well as recurves and longbows. They all have a place and time. For me a muzzleloader needs a side hammer and look the part. Patched round balls are the preferred projectile. I just get more enjoyment out of shooting that way. To each their own.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Thanx, Centershot... I felt it "needed-to-be-said". Shucky-Darn, I still like my flintlock Long Rifle, too... but shoot it less and less these days because it's takes a bunch more "work" to clean after shooting it than do my pair of caplocks. After all, when all is said-and-done, "truth" is still TRUTH !~!~!. N'est pas, mon ami? Strength & Honor... Ron T.
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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I would appreciate a brief tutorial on what it takes to get good patterns from a smooth bore shotgun. Of if not that, more direction toward the secrets of the past?. Who or what is Greener? What would be a reasonable expectation? An honest IC pattern? Greener is the famous Greener shotgun Greener . Ill send you a link when I get home to his writings on line . One big thing though is that muzzle loading smooth bores are capable of regulating the load so as to produce the desired result . Very hard to do that with to the same extent with a cartridge . One of the basic riles however is that by reducing the powder to shot ratio you tighten the group . Increase powder to shot ration opens the pattern. Changing wads cards , number of each also changes pattern
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C'mon Ron
Being a stout traditionaist is fine. I love reading muzzleloader history - love to attend reenactment-events. But the actuality in my life says my inlines are:....... more accurate -- more resistant to moisture - can handle more powder -- can shoot a bullet flatter -- can shoot a bullet faster -- less moving parts -- easier to pull a load, then reuse it -- easier to clean with open breech -- easier to inspect -- hotter ignitions...... etc....etc...etc.
I own both sidehammers and inlines. But if you do not see progress with inlines, I'm not sure what your definition of progress is.
Progress is in the harvest and you have a better chance at a harvest (all things considered) with an inline. ***************************************************************** Every fact you mention is absolutely true. However, who said that "progress" is the golden chalice or something we traditionalists even want? My thinking is "Whatever makes your motor run or floats yer boat"... and if it's in-lines, then so be it. However, for me, I like the traditional side-locks, the possible "handicaps" they bring with 'em, the aroma of REAL black powder and the limitations the side-locks shootin' patched, round lead rifle balls automatically put on the hunter/shooter. I've got 'scoped center-fire magnums and have hunted with a .338 Win. Mag. in a custom pre-'64 Model 70 for 40 years. Then I got tired of its recoil and it's almost-automatic "sure" kill even at extended ranges, so now I take my chances and don't mind the extra "work" involved in getting CLOSER before taking the shot... or even passing up a shot sometimes. Sure... I have had to "pass" on some nice bucks, but that's ok... it's MY choice, isn't it... just as it's your choice to use what amounts to a 'scoped in-line with "almost" center-fire rifle ballistics during muzzle-loader season. And, as long as that's "legal"... then so be it and good luck to you and I sincerely mean that, my friend. But for me... I'd rather do it the way I'm doing it... and you and my 2 sons can do it the way you and they prefer doing it. So what's wrong with that? Butttt... even THINKING that traditional muzzle-loaders are "dead"??? Nayyyy... no way, José. Strength & Honor... Ron T. Well said Ron. I have modern rifles, and compound bows as well as recurves and longbows. They all have a place and time. For me a muzzleloader needs a side hammer and look the part. Patched round balls are the preferred projectile. I just get more enjoyment out of shooting that way. To each their own. I get most enjoyment from a patched roundball ML too. 1:66 is my cats meow fun-time gun. But one better know it's limitations and its likes / dislikes. There were times I had that ML and saw a buck out of my range by 30-40 yards, wishing I had my inline that day. There were times when snow and rain from a branch over my head dumped on my ML and I wish I had my inline. There were times I encountered a hangfire or misfire on a buck and wished I had my inline. Two months ago I spent 4-5 hours trying to remove a bit of rust from the very bottom of my sidelock breech. With inlines, that doesn't happen. Water is the #1 enemy of muzzleloaders and you must use soapy bucket water to flush breech-bottoms, nipple areas and frozen / cleanout bolster screw-areas. Not so with an inline. I love my sole, remaining 1:66 sidehammer. Will always keep one in the future. But never 2...... never seven, like I had in December. Sold them all after my last hangfire on a buck. Been hunting bucks with inlines for 20 years. Never had a hang/misfire in the woods...... never. Want to remain a traditionalist hunter? ........OK. So do I, but in a hunting spot in the woods where I know and have the limitations to meet the demands of my ML. While seated, I take precautions against the weather with that gun, something that's not necessary with my break-action inlines. Like I said..... I love that sidehammer most. But I trust it the least.
Last edited by Triple_Se7en; 02/17/15.
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Traditional muzzleloading isnt dead, YOU just have to get off your ass and start doing it. Its no harder than any other kind of hunting. Bingo! Far be it for me to castigate a man for choosing to hunt with an inline (no matter how much I may privately disdain them). When I elect to sally forth with a ML I choose for it to be a traditional side lock, rifle or shotgun, because I feel it contributes to my feeling of connectedness to the days of yore. A scoped inline is nothing more nor less than a very efficient modern killing machine- albeit one that loads via the muzzle, one shot at a time. Using a "traditional" ML simply adds another dimension to the challenge of ML hunting, one that I relish and one that I fear a youngster who bypassed the "old ones" and went straight to the inlines is sorely missing (and doesn't even know it). I bet in another couple of generations you'll find guys waxing nostalgic for the days of scoped Remington 700 inlines and X-Boxes, and such. Progress? Not for me to say, and if I did say my opinion would be worth a cup of warm spit.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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![[Linked Image]](http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n566/tddeangelo/Martin%20Rifle/BAE64D32-5880-4CD7-8E44-C1301D081200_zpsghatbfsx.jpg) That's my 62-caliber long rifle with a doe it killed on Jan 1, 2015. Rocklocks are alive and well here in PA...
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T7 , I submit that if you trust it the least , then something is wrong . There should never be a doubt that the gun will go off . If and when it does , then it should frankly surprise you I cant speak for others but the few times I have had issues , it was my fault . Those times , I didn’t wish for an inline I wished I had by center fire LOL But then I realize that , it would also be a different game . Im also a hunter first and target shooter 2nd . But since I don’t get to hunter big game year around , I there for spend a lot of time target shooting in preparation. Thus im very surprised when my flintlock fails to fire ,regardless the weather . here is a link to Greeners writings . the first book is more about muzzleloading and early cartradge shotguns https://archive.org/details/gunitsdevelopmen00greerich
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Well, this should keep me occupied on these cold days. Thanks.
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Half the fun of dialing in a shotgun is finding the right combo of powder, OP wad, shot and over shot card(s). Once you find what works, it's gravy from there.
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Oregon seems to be keeping things primitive if it's defined as a muzzleloader hunt. Iron sights only (no scopes), no sabots, no pelleted propellants, if inline the firing mechanism must be exposed to the elements, no slugs longer than 2 X caliber, and center fire primers can not be used for ignition.
1Minute
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Idaho is along the same lines as Oregon, only they offer very limited muzzleloader hunting opportunities or want to make it where that is all that you can do. Which stinks.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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The unit I hunt in PA offers a 4-week season after Christmas, and it's flintlock ignition only.
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Idaho is along the same lines as Oregon, only they offer very limited muzzleloader hunting opportunities or want to make it where that is all that you can do. Which stinks. well , we had our chance to expand opportunity . But some folks didn’t listen to what the commission was saying so . Now we have what we have . Which I believe will now gradually get smaller and smaller . As for me . Ill hunt with my flintlock in the general season . That way I don’t have to pay for a stamp , that promotes a rules system I don’t agree in . that’s IMO the area in this state with the real opportunity .
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It seems totally backwards to me. IDF&G should promote more difficult methods of harvest not eliminate them. It gets folks out and does little to the game populations. Yet they are bent on limiting bowhunting and muzzleloading?
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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I dont think its dead...but sure aint thriving around here.
For me, muzzleloader hunting is nothing more than more time in the field. I dont care a bit for the nostalgia, or want to deal with any more mess than I have to. I think a lot of hunters are like me.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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I didnt necessarily mean mess, probably an improper use. Hassle would be a better term. 209 primers, synthetic stocks, magnified optics, and BP substitutes all make my life easier.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Lemme see if I got this under control. No primers Stocks is stocks No optical sight 4-5 patches to clean up. Yep, kinda easy. 7# 3 oz ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/Turpin-1_zpsabjebgyc.jpg) You are free to make your own choices, but please make sure your aspersions are cast upon the waters gracefully.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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I grew up shooting traditional blackpowder...and want nothing to do with it now. As you stated, we are free to make out own choices...mine rests solely on two more weeks in the woods.
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Traditional muzzleloaders are a thing of the past. they will always be simply by definition if nothing else. part of that is an allure to some, to others it's merely a reminder of where we came from. either way the sport needs to be preserved, regardless of the reasoning. i have both traditional and inlines, and yes the inlines get way more use. but the line dividing the two is mighty thin in reality.
Beware of any old man in a profession where one usually dies young.
Calm seas don't make sailors.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I disagree on the point of thin reality. I've yet to run across an inline that makes me smile.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Sidelocks, PRB's and dirty hands make me smile.
There is no way to coexist no matter how many bumper stickers there are on Subaru bumpers!
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Since the inception of muzzleloading seasons, hunters have been divided between those who want to do more hunting and do it as efficiently as possible and those hunters who enjoy the historical connection that blackpowder brings. I personally love traditional muzzleloaders. Inlines leave me cold. However, barring another phenomena like "Davy Crockett" or "Jeremiah Johnson" that reawakens historical awareness, I see interest continuing to wane because younger generations simply learn so little early- American history. Perhaps this best sums up the situation!: CVA Commercial
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Sidelocks, PRB's and dirty hands make me smile. Increased limitations do not make me smile. What makes me smile is harvesting a deer with my roundball gun and the limitations that were included. Traditional guns are a wonderful thing to include in your gun safes. But advanced technology can park an untrusted gun in bad weather, with a more weather resistant trusted gun.
Last edited by Triple_Se7en; 02/22/15.
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When I see an in-line, I think "felon"
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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I could have done without seeing that video.
Of that there is no doubt .
Wouldn’t he rather have pulled out a 300 H&H or something anyway . seriously , out starving in the mountians and he comes up with an inline . But surly old jack had all the jacketed bullets , sabots , 209 primers as well as needed toolsall back in his packs on ther horse that froze to the tree behind him .
it’s the way it is centershot because comparatively , muzzle loading hunter numbers , here , are very small . Our seasons have for the most part been based around short range weapon areas or units that could have or needed small numbers removed so as to keep the unit from converting to depredation.
If we add into that ,
*management for money vs. management for game populations and herd health.
* political influences
*Continued rise in cost of licenses and tags
* Concerning modern muzzle loading , the complete contradictions concerning capabilities , even among their own supporters. IE ., on the net they out do traditional designs in every way . But make a claim as to that while standing in front of the commission and its all lies .
There really is a lot to it . Speaking for myself , I don’t care if I shoot a buck ore doe , cow or bull . Frankly I don’t care how big the horns are either. If I come across a large bull or buck fantastic . But im not turning down the meat either . So if it’s a small rag horn or spike , so be it .
There however are a lot of folks that dont see it that way . So you have those wanting trophy hunting, to the point of going to a lottery system like many other states and doing away with the general hunt to get it . You have those who are against hair tags . While I understand the whole buck /doe ratio principle, frankly culling is culling , no mater in a cow herd or a deer herd .
Myself I believe that eventually the commission will cave in and release the restrictions on modern muzzle loading. In doing so they will again reduce the number of available hunts for muzzleloading again and eventually do away with the season all together .Turning the managment of those hunts back to draw / restricted hunts .
I think we will see archery go the same way . It will take longer , but it will happen .Not before our general season goes to a lottery system or complete permit only hunts though . I say that becouse esch year i see the archers becoming more and more devided . I have even heard more modern artchers saying that things are starting to go to far .
So we are not alone in our confusion . look around and its not hard to see .
*Centerfire and special season like Archery and muzzle loading
*Fly fishermen and live bait anglers
* The everyday common fisherman and sport fishing
*4X4 and ATV/quads
*Hikers and mountain bikes
* Jet boats and rafters
The list goes on and on
As to more time in the woods .
That ship don’t float here . We are only aloud 1 tag per year for each species . Possibly 2 if your in a depredation draw. You don’t get another tag to bow hunt and another to muzzle load and another for center fire . You just get that one tag and when you fill it your done . So the only way your going to get more time in the woods is
a) Don’t shoot anything until the last day of the last hunt of the last special weapons season or fill your tag in September and then hunt upland game birds tell the end of December .
b) hunt predators like coyotes which is open year around
c) take advantage of the fact that you can carry any weapon you want , in the woods , any time you like .
No need for a modern inline , carry what ever you like . IE take that AR , AK …..
No need for a license , no need for a tag .Hike , camp , explore all you like. Just don’t get caught killing anything without a hunting license.
But then again it maybe different where you live , out here we for the most part still have some semblance of freedoms left
when it comes to kids not being tought history, yep agreeded 100% . thats why its so very important that we teach them history not some modern verssion of it .
while i dont see as many small kids at the events as we once did . I am seeing growing numbers of those in thier 30-40 .
Last edited by captchee; 02/22/15.
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captchee;
Well said, and I agree.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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That 30-40 age group is the one I concentrate on recruiting into our muzzle loading / rendezvous clubs.
Younger men are too busy establishing their careers and starting their families to have time for hobbies. Teenagers can't drive to events or still need adult supervision. The elder group doesn't bring their children because they are grown.
The 30-40 age group have children who are old enough to attend with their parents. These kids will learn to enjoy the hobby and return to it again when they are older. The best way I can see to keep the interest alive.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke 1795
"Give me liberty or give me death"
Patrick Henry 1775
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Here in the East, things are somewhat different. Whitetails are under siege pretty much from September until January and there are still too many almost everywhere. Access to hunting ground in areas with lots of deer and people is limited, so the automobile becomes a major control factor, along with depredation hunts by government snipers using night vision and silencers. There are some token special hunts, mostly for archers, in suburban parks, but there's a lot of friction between the hunters, government killers, and the Bambi huggers. In one local park in Virginia, the archers were warned off some good areas by the snipers, completely without authority. It wasn't according to the rules, but who's going to argue with cops?
Permission to hunt on private land is difficult to get almost everywhere, and public land gets very busy, at least early in the season, and of course the deer quickly migrate to nearby private land.
Everybody's got different problems and circumstances to deal with. I'm just glad that for the most part at least we get to use whatever we want to hunt with, once we find a place to do it.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Pappy, Sounds 'zackly like here.
Ct. finally passed the "lesser weapons" deal which allows muzzleloaders in regular shotgun/rifle season.
Unfortunately , I hunt a shotgun only "controlled hunt" watershed area near my house. Being it's owned by the water company, they set the rules and muzzleloaders aren't allowed. (they also have about 5k acres set aside for bow only that I use.)
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OP
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I could have done without seeing that video.
Of that there is no doubt .
Wouldn’t he rather have pulled out a 300 H&H or something anyway . seriously , out starving in the mountians and he comes up with an inline . But surly old jack had all the jacketed bullets , sabots , 209 primers as well as needed toolsall back in his packs on ther horse that froze to the tree behind him .
it’s the way it is centershot because comparatively , muzzle loading hunter numbers , here , are very small . Our seasons have for the most part been based around short range weapon areas or units that could have or needed small numbers removed so as to keep the unit from converting to depredation.
If we add into that ,
*management for money vs. management for game populations and herd health.
* political influences
*Continued rise in cost of licenses and tags
* Concerning modern muzzle loading , the complete contradictions concerning capabilities , even among their own supporters. IE ., on the net they out do traditional designs in every way . But make a claim as to that while standing in front of the commission and its all lies .
There really is a lot to it . Speaking for myself , I don’t care if I shoot a buck ore doe , cow or bull . Frankly I don’t care how big the horns are either. If I come across a large bull or buck fantastic . But im not turning down the meat either . So if it’s a small rag horn or spike , so be it .
There however are a lot of folks that dont see it that way . So you have those wanting trophy hunting, to the point of going to a lottery system like many other states and doing away with the general hunt to get it . You have those who are against hair tags . While I understand the whole buck /doe ratio principle, frankly culling is culling , no mater in a cow herd or a deer herd .
Myself I believe that eventually the commission will cave in and release the restrictions on modern muzzle loading. In doing so they will again reduce the number of available hunts for muzzleloading again and eventually do away with the season all together .Turning the managment of those hunts back to draw / restricted hunts .
I think we will see archery go the same way . It will take longer , but it will happen .Not before our general season goes to a lottery system or complete permit only hunts though . I say that becouse esch year i see the archers becoming more and more devided . I have even heard more modern artchers saying that things are starting to go to far .
So we are not alone in our confusion . look around and its not hard to see .
*Centerfire and special season like Archery and muzzle loading
*Fly fishermen and live bait anglers
* The everyday common fisherman and sport fishing
*4X4 and ATV/quads
*Hikers and mountain bikes
* Jet boats and rafters
The list goes on and on
As to more time in the woods .
That ship don’t float here . We are only aloud 1 tag per year for each species . Possibly 2 if your in a depredation draw. You don’t get another tag to bow hunt and another to muzzle load and another for center fire . You just get that one tag and when you fill it your done . So the only way your going to get more time in the woods is
a) Don’t shoot anything until the last day of the last hunt of the last special weapons season or fill your tag in September and then hunt upland game birds tell the end of December .
b) hunt predators like coyotes which is open year around
c) take advantage of the fact that you can carry any weapon you want , in the woods , any time you like .
No need for a modern inline , carry what ever you like . IE take that AR , AK …..
No need for a license , no need for a tag .Hike , camp , explore all you like. Just don’t get caught killing anything without a hunting license.
But then again it maybe different where you live , out here we for the most part still have some semblance of freedoms left
when it comes to kids not being tought history, yep agreeded 100% . thats why its so very important that we teach them history not some modern verssion of it .
while i dont see as many small kids at the events as we once did . I am seeing growing numbers of those in thier 30-40 . I'm in agreement with most of your thoughts. What I see is a bunch of little specialized 2 week hunts, which sucks because like you said you only get one tag anyway. Or buy another non-res. tag for $300, which i think is the F&G's underlying goal anyway. They know the herds are healthy and selling an extra tag gets them an extra $300. Most people don't kill one deer let alone 2. I find the current trend toward unlimited controlled hunts a very poor way to manage game and people. All it does is limit opportunity, which makes people mad and they quit hunting all together. This is exactly where archery, muzzleloader and short range weapons should be filling the gaps. Reduced take should equal longer seasons and more opportunity - unfortunately the Idaho Fish and Game is doing exactly the opposite.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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We have it pretty lucky here...Muzzleloader is two weeks in October/November, Rifle is two weeks in November/December, and Antlerless Rifle is a week in December, so two bucks, three does, for a grand total of a hundred bucks in tags. One hundred twenty five with an annual license. Add archery, and thats another buck and a doe.
I have a Lifetime, so it costs me nothing out of pocket. I will most likely buy a crossbow this year, for more time in the woods.
Last edited by liliysdad; 02/23/15.
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The older I get, the more my attitude changes. When I was a "young and comer" I had to have the latest and greatest deer killing machine, killed as many animals as I could get away with, and drove like a maniac to get there. Now I could really care less if I am successful after a day in the woods (in fact I'm often relieved I don't have to bust a gut dealing with a monster buck after it's down), I'm content to dawdle along on the drive there, and the rifle/shotgun I carry has to be aesthetically pleasing more so than super efficient. I see young guys taking to the woods as if they were on a Marine recon mission and can't help but wonder about that which they are missing out on. As I sit in the woods on an Indian Summer day admiring the rifle I built many years ago, I reflect on the hundreds of hours I spent building it and feel a direct connection to my ancestor who roamed the woods of Pennsylvania with the family heirloom long rifle I copied it from. For me there is definitely a higher plane of experience regarding the whole muzzle loading deal than just "getting a few more days afield" and utilizing the the most up to date technology. But that's me. (And yes, anyone who shies away from Holy Black and sidelock ignition due to the "mess" involved is either a wuss or never gave it a fair shake. That's my biased opinion and I'm sticking to it! )
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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I hear that, I'm 47 and in the best shape of my life. I love to wander the mountains. I get a kick out of out-walking guys half my age - but the goal is to see what I can see. Wanderlust it believe it's called. I've been a bowhunter for 30 years and fairly successful. I've always said give a successful bowhunter a rifle and its only a matter of time. Killing a mule deer or elk with a high power rifle is not difficult. Killing a trophy is extremely difficult and nearly impossible on public lands due to the minimal number of truly big animals - so killing a nice buck with a limited range weapon adds challenge and keeps meat in the freezer and still comes with a nice feeling of satisfaction. I had a miss fire on an antelope a few years ago - would have been a slam dunk with about any other weapon, but I just smiled and moved on. Knowing that just because you get the shot, you may not get the critter adds to the fun.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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The older I get, the more my attitude changes. When I was a "young and comer" I had to have the latest and greatest deer killing machine, killed as many animals as I could get away with, and drove like a maniac to get there. Now I could really care less if I am successful after a day in the woods (in fact I'm often relieved I don't have to bust a gut dealing with a monster buck after it's down), I'm content to dawdle along on the drive there, and the rifle/shotgun I carry has to be aesthetically pleasing more so than super efficient. I see young guys taking to the woods as if they were on a Marine recon mission and can't help but wonder about that which they are missing out on. As I sit in the woods on an Indian Summer day admiring the rifle I built many years ago, I reflect on the hundreds of hours I spent building it and feel a direct connection to my ancestor who roamed the woods of Pennsylvania with the family heirloom long rifle I copied it from. For me there is definitely a higher plane of experience regarding the whole muzzle loading deal than just "getting a few more days afield" and utilizing the the most up to date technology. But that's me. (And yes, anyone who shies away from Holy Black and sidelock ignition due to the "mess" involved is either a wuss or never gave it a fair shake. That's my biased opinion and I'm sticking to it! ) Well said. With a little age comes much wisdom.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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I hear that, I'm 47 and in the best shape of my life. I love to wander the mountains. I get a kick out of out-walking guys half my age - but the goal is to see what I can see. Wanderlust it believe it's called. I've been a bowhunter for 30 years and fairly successful. I've always said give a successful bowhunter a rifle and its only a matter of time. Killing a mule deer or elk with a high power rifle is not difficult. Killing a trophy is extremely difficult and nearly impossible on public lands due to the minimal number of truly big animals - so killing a nice buck with a limited range weapon adds challenge and keeps meat in the freezer and still comes with a nice feeling of satisfaction. I had a miss fire on an antelope a few years ago - would have been a slam dunk with about any other weapon, but I just smiled and moved on. Knowing that just because you get the shot, you may not get the critter adds to the fun. Yep. Getting to "there" (where you are) is most of the fun, and something many don't ever cotton to.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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The older I get, the more my attitude changes. When I was a "young and comer" I had to have the latest and greatest deer killing machine, killed as many animals as I could get away with, and drove like a maniac to get there. Now I could really care less if I am successful after a day in the woods (in fact I'm often relieved I don't have to bust a gut dealing with a monster buck after it's down), I'm content to dawdle along on the drive there, and the rifle/shotgun I carry has to be aesthetically pleasing more so than super efficient. I see young guys taking to the woods as if they were on a Marine recon mission and can't help but wonder about that which they are missing out on. As I sit in the woods on an Indian Summer day admiring the rifle I built many years ago, I reflect on the hundreds of hours I spent building it and feel a direct connection to my ancestor who roamed the woods of Pennsylvania with the family heirloom long rifle I copied it from. For me there is definitely a higher plane of experience regarding the whole muzzle loading deal than just "getting a few more days afield" and utilizing the the most up to date technology. But that's me. (And yes, anyone who shies away from Holy Black and sidelock ignition due to the "mess" involved is either a wuss or never gave it a fair shake. That's my biased opinion and I'm sticking to it! ) very well said
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The notion that traditional guns are hard to take care of IS nonsense. Everybody has a favorite method, but I've found that Ballistol, diluted and straight, does the job with minimal fuss and bother.
My inline, which so far has only been fed BH209, is a pain to take apart for thorough cleaning. Fortunately, I can fire it a lot before it needs it. Break actions are apparently simpler, but I just don't care for the way they look.
What fresh Hell is this?
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I have shot a few inlines, and I never found them to be any easier nor faster to clean. It's just more "similar" to cleaning a centerfire. I clean my long rifle with a work rod, patches, and a bucket of water. Works great, every time, doesn't take long, and nothing beats the smell of black powder fouling, lol. I truly do enjoy the smell of the fouling, as it's just a smell that reminds me that I got to have some fun that day shooting my rifle. My family is less than thrilled when I bucket clean the rifle in the house, but oh well.
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Break actions are much easier. As for looks, I have never cared what a gun looked like as long as it worked.
I grew up shooting traditional sidelock guns, with real BP...and while fun at the time, it was never anything I cared to do once grown. I am glad others do, but for me, BP Substitutes, 209 primers, and sabots make my life a much better place.
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Ha ha. As far as cleaning goes, when I clean my double barrel cap lock shotgun, I yank the barrels off and take them in the shower with me along with a rod and some patches. Clean the gun as I clean me. A whole different twist to "showering with a friend".
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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The notion that traditional guns are hard to take care of IS nonsense. Funny how difficult some folks make boiling water, dumping it in a bucket with a little dish soap is. Pump a couple patches up and down, let her dry (which does not take long with hot water) grease it back up with some Borebutter and put it in the safe. FWIW: I do it in the garage because the rest of the household does not think it smells as nice as I do. haha
Last edited by centershot; 02/25/15.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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What fresh Hell is this?
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The older I get, the more my attitude changes. When I was a "young and comer" I had to have the latest and greatest deer killing machine, killed as many animals as I could get away with, and drove like a maniac to get there. Now I could really care less if I am successful after a day in the woods (in fact I'm often relieved I don't have to bust a gut dealing with a monster buck after it's down), I'm content to dawdle along on the drive there, and the rifle/shotgun I carry has to be aesthetically pleasing more so than super efficient. I see young guys taking to the woods as if they were on a Marine recon mission and can't help but wonder about that which they are missing out on. As I sit in the woods on an Indian Summer day admiring the rifle I built many years ago, I reflect on the hundreds of hours I spent building it and feel a direct connection to my ancestor who roamed the woods of Pennsylvania with the family heirloom long rifle I copied it from. For me there is definitely a higher plane of experience regarding the whole muzzle loading deal than just "getting a few more days afield" and utilizing the the most up to date technology. But that's me. (And yes, anyone who shies away from Holy Black and sidelock ignition due to the "mess" involved is either a wuss or never gave it a fair shake. That's my biased opinion and I'm sticking to it! ) ********************************************************* Ahhhhhhhh, YES, Gnoahhh, You've excellently expressed so very well the thoughts and deep feelings a great many of us older hunters eventually come to feel. I doubt that younger hunters can comprehend that, some day, their thoughts & feelings may come to be the same. Only with experience and age comes such feelings and only "time" can cause that to happen. I'm glad to read that others have those same feelings I've come to have. Being in the woods with a familiar and friendly rifle has a "goodness" all it's own... and shooting game becomes secondary or even not-of-great-importance once one reaches that point in life where it's the total experience rather than just the "kill" that makes for a pleasant day in the woods. THANK YOU, my friend, for saying it so well. Strength & Honor... Ron T.
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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I do all my gun hunting for deer, hogs and turkey with flintlocks I build. Just like knowing what it was like to hunt with these guns back in the 1700 and 1800's. Only got two now a .58cal. for deer mostly (have killed hogs with it) and .20ga. for spring gobblers and a few squirrels...did kill one hog with my first .20ga. and no. 6's. Shot her behind the ear at about one long step. I built both the .58cal and .20ga I got now lightweight. My .20ga.Gobbler Gun. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Gobbler%20Special/Smoothbore4_zpsd80ba252.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/GOBBLERS/shawgob4.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/GOBBLERS/shawgob1-1.jpg) .58cal. Rifle ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Berks/BerksCo.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Flintlocks/Flintlock%20Bucks/P1010003.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Flintlocks/Flintlock%20Bucks/P1010008.jpg)
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Hoyt, those are great. Hard to think of a more respectful way to take an animal.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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To the original question by the OP, I firmly believe at least around here traditional is making a strong comeback as well as long bow vs compound which is quite welcomed IMO.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Beautiful work sir absolutely immaculate in every detail.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Will second that! Beautiful work it is!
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Tracker
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Holy crap those are nice. Love the sliding patch box.
There is no way to coexist no matter how many bumper stickers there are on Subaru bumpers!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Capt, can you provide a little info, such as caliber/bore etc?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Tracker
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looks like a traditions kentucky
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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looks like a traditions kentucky You're either in need of a consult with an optometrist of just full of pasture pie... 
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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The top rifle is based off a later Emmel , stocked in black walnut . Its mounted in iron with a 40 cal , Rice , A weight target barrel . The lock is a Chambers Siler and the triggers are a set that I build . The 2nd rifle is a spin off of an Issac Haines and stocked in Fiddle back , English walnut . All the Hardware and inlay work is German silver, all of which is engraved The barrel is an early 54 cal Getz 39 inch A weight , banded with 14kt gold and engraved at the tang and breech areas The lock is a Chambers and the pan I have lined with 18kt gold . the toe plate on this rifle is a combination of Brass and German silver inlay as well as wire work. here are a few more photos of the 2nd rifle . i have more on my facebook page ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/DSC01150_zpsq4jywnbs.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/DSC01165_zpstlde3jss.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/DSC01153_zpsph3jkgxm.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/DSC01176_zpsjseiex9g.jpg)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
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Great Zot! Beautiful work and thanks for the info. That inlay work looks like an exercise in patience. How long did it take to build that gun, start to finish?
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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looks like a traditions kentucky are you serious?? that's an insult. Hoyt and Captchee, those are some beautiful functional works of art!
Charter Member
Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes."
szihn
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Campfire Tracker
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LOL pasture pie! That one cracked me up so bad my eyes filled up with tears!
And yes, I am just kiddin around. I see custom rifles for sale and then you see a newbie come along asking if its a lyman or a traditions LOL.
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Outstanding!
Love that wirework!
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just alittle under 400 hours Dan
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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400 hours...wow. Your time was well spent.
D
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Captchee That's a friggin' beauty....OMG! I would be scared to hunt with it, for fear of scratching it. Makes my Shenandoah look real cheap. 
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Cap, your work is already Legendary. Superlative. And yeah I would hunt with that rifle. Why be married to a beautiful woman and not make love to her????
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
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Why be married to a beautiful woman and not make love to her???? Bad analogy...Spilling on it is one thing, beating it against rocks is another.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
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Wow Captchee, beautiful! Where in Idaho are you?
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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A thing of beauty and a joy forever. Well done, Cap!
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Why be married to a beautiful woman and not make love to her???? Bad analogy...Spilling on it is one thing, beating it against rocks is another. dont know about others but i have never beat one of my hunting rifles on rocks . do they have dents yep . IMO though , that’s a sign of well earned experience . I can tell you I would not have a problem taking that fine lady out and attempt to wear the cover off the seat of my old international. IMO she and I would both be better for it LOL But in all seriousness. These are two completely different rifles The first is slim , sleek like a fine race car . The 2nd is fancy , yes . But its more like a Bentley in that its refined , sophisticated . Both were made to drive . You just drive them differently . Both however need the road to make them what they are Im up in Payette centershot
Last edited by captchee; 03/13/15.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I am awful partial to Hawkens... ![[Linked Image]](http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww127/tex_n_cal/54Hawken_zpscff60715.jpg) and similar contraptions... ![[Linked Image]](http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww127/tex_n_cal/hawken-walker_zps065632dc.jpg)
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Is that revolver a Walker?
Last edited by Triple_Se7en; 03/13/15.
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Is that revolver a Walker? I can answer that. Yes. That gun is another one of my pet peeves. Call me grumpy old man about these Walkers, but they really dont hold a candle to Cold 3rd Model Dragoon. The dragon is almost as powerful. The walker has a ton of extra weight and bbl length all for nothing. When you shoot the reproduction Walkers the loading lever pops open. The Walker balance is awful. Basically the Dragoon is for all intents and purpose as powerful and it WORKS. The walker is a coffee table conversation piece. Problem is 99% of the repor's are walkers and 90% of the buyers dont know or dont care about the Dragoon. Anyone serous about wanting to shoot these big big early revolvers look for a dragoon. The Rugers and Remington dont come close in power. The Walker is a poor choice up against any of the Dragoons. The 3rd being hands down best of best: https://www.google.com/search?q=col...=xMoCVb_TOtCHgwTFy4KoCA&ved=0CDIQsAQIMHO, as alwasy
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The lever latch of the Dragoons was an improvement, speeding rate of fire - as indeed the lever always drops when you fire the Walker. But I figure the smoke screen caused by lighting off 55 grains of powder usually obscured you well enough that you had time to flip the lever up, and cock the hammer. So no, it's not as efficient as the Dragoons. But these aren't about efficiency
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Outfitter
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Is that revolver a Walker? I can answer that. Yes. That gun is another one of my pet peeves. Call me grumpy old man about these Walkers, but they really dont hold a candle to Cold 3rd Model Dragoon. The dragon is almost as powerful. The walker has a ton of extra weight and bbl length all for nothing. When you shoot the reproduction Walkers the loading lever pops open. The Walker balance is awful. Basically the Dragoon is for all intents and purpose as powerful and it WORKS. The walker is a coffee table conversation piece. Problem is 99% of the repor's are walkers and 90% of the buyers dont know or dont care about the Dragoon. Anyone serous about wanting to shoot these big big early revolvers look for a dragoon. The Rugers and Remington dont come close in power. The Walker is a poor choice up against any of the Dragoons. The 3rd being hands down best of best: https://www.google.com/search?q=col...=xMoCVb_TOtCHgwTFy4KoCA&ved=0CDIQsAQIMHO, as alwasy To my understanding the Walker Colts barrel was twisted requiring full powder charges, the Dragoons twist was changed and shoot well with various charge weights. Doc
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Hoyt and Captchee... What absolutely BEAUTIFUL rifles you're created. I don't see how they could be more exquisitely built. You are, indeed, "master" builders !~!~! Congratulations on creating such beauty !!!
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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If a roundball from a flintlock can't kill it then it can't be kilt. ![[Linked Image]](http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small63922617.JPG) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/buckskinner.jpg)
"We live in the present, we dream of the future, but we learn eternal truths from the past"
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I prefer caplock rifles, patched round balls and real black powder. I don't have an inline and don't intend to buy one. So, traditional muzzloaders aren't dead at my house. When ground squirrel hunting I occasionally take my .50 caplock along. Well worth the effort.
Happy Trails!
NRA Life Member
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Not for me. My 1847 era J&S Hawken rifle built by John Bergmann 5 years ago. I ordered the components from Don Stith, who makes his components from the original J&S Hawkens he owns, and had him send them to John. It has a .54 cal, 1-56" twist, 36" X 1 1/8" - 1" tapered Rice barrel, RE Davis lock, 14 1/4" inch length of pull, and weighs 10.8 pounds. ![[Linked Image]](http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/BMR_photos/IMG_0501.jpg) Wonderful Hawken
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Not for me. My 1847 era J&S Hawken rifle built by John Bergmann 5 years ago. I ordered the components from Don Stith, who makes his components from the original J&S Hawkens he owns, and had him send them to John. It has a .54 cal, 1-56" twist, 36" X 1 1/8" - 1" tapered Rice barrel, RE Davis lock, 14 1/4" inch length of pull, and weighs 10.8 pounds.
That is very nice! I've admired true Hawkens since first seeing them in the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody as a teen. Is that faux striping? If so, it's very well done.
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If a roundball from a flintlock can't kill it then it can't be kilt. Great stuff sir. Will you please tell me what caliber you used for those two animals?
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Thanks, guys. Actually, that is the natural grain. I ordered a plain stocked maple, as from my research I found that the majority of Hawkens were stocked like that, but Don sent this one to my builder. If I recall correctly, he sent the higher grade stock because it took awhile for him to place the order (I think it may have slipped his mind) and he felt bad about the delay.
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Thanks, guys. Actually, that is the natural grain. I ordered a plain stocked maple, as from my research I found that the majority of Hawkens were stocked like that, but Don sent this one to my builder. If I recall correctly, he sent the higher grade stock because it took awhile for him to place the order (I think it may have slipped his mind) and he felt bad about the delay. It's gorgeous wood! Definitely a rifle to be proud of.
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Campfire Tracker
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RWL99, thanks for the nice pics, and yes, tell us about the rifles.
Golldammed motion detector lights. A guy can’t even piss off his porch in peace any more.
"Look, I want to help the helpless. It's the clueless I don't give a [bleep] about." - Dennis Miller on obamacare.
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lice looking rifle you have there Tex
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Thing of the past? Why hell yes, that's exactly why we love them. Rifle is an unknown Italian .54 percussion of the Santa Fe pattern. 1860 is also a mongrel from the mid 70's, not a maker's mark to be found. Both are dead-accurate, sure shooters. I won't have anything else on the place. ![[Linked Image]](http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x187/SargeMO/100_0748_zpspude3wgc.jpg)
Last edited by SargeMO; 04/22/15.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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![[Linked Image]](http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Black%20Powder/Turpin-1_zpsabjebgyc.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Black%20Powder/8247b090-cc6a-4986-8b60-81cd4ae52f45_zpsvsbreaqk.jpg.html)
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![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/Rifles/DSC01167_zpsieusio4p.jpg)
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