Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders New Remington 700 ultimate muzzleloader.... Smokeless? ??

The barrel and breech plug steel is as strong and hard as it gets for a stainless steel, so I do not believe it is the strength of those components that would be in question. I believe the weak link is in the Johnston ignition system itself. The parent Johnston plug is clearly built stout enough to run a big load of 777 in his Johnston rifle, and the new Remington version of the plug appears stout enough to run big loads of BH209, but neither are stout enough according to Remington engineers to seal and hold up to the greater pressures of smokeless. The new Remington would need someone to invent a drop-in breech plug with a stronger and more positive seal to safely hold up to smokeless.

Charlie's smokeless rifle is a complete different animal built ground up around a specific load. Though his route for a 45 caliber sabot-less smokeless muzzleloader is to use a custom ignition system using a primed cartridge casing, vs the many other 45 smokeless builders using various custom 209 module ignition systems, this does not translate into either the Remington parent Johnston plug or the newer Remington version of the Johnston plug being suitable for the increased pressure. It would be a very bad idea with great risks of property damage, injury and death. Charlie's ignition system is designed to shoot his smokeless load, but the Johnston plug is designed to only shoot pellets, and the new Remington "Johnston" plug was improved in design to also handle Blackhorn 209. Neither was designed nor intended for smokeless loads such as Charlie's.

Quite a few have already been converted to 45 smokeless with a change in barrel, breech plug and ignition system; and some are entertaining the thought and are experimenting with designing a drop-in smokeless breech plug/ignition system to maintain the factory 50 caliber sabot barrel. But none of the later, to my knowledge, have hit the market as of yet.

If wanting to use the factory barrel, magnum 150 grain volume loads of BH209 have been proofed, to date, by Western Powders. When they are completed with testing, they will publish Remington Ultimate Only load data, which is expected to show safe the BH209 loads currently being used by Bob Parker, which makes the new Remington a 400 yard gun without smokeless. So if your goal is for a clean powder to use, and you have no need for these smokeless 700-yard game animal kills hyped on the internet, then BH209 in the new Remington is a viable option. Otherwise, choose a smokeless ignition system, and have the rifle converted to 45 smokeless. There are a number of guys having good track records making these conversions.

Best

Also injury to others unlucky enough to be nearby......

You want a smokeless gun buy a Savage smokeless muzzleloader .This is a muzzleloader 4 -50gr pellets or 180 gr loose powder NOT SMOKELESS

dead man walking...............................

I had one in my hand a week ago. I thought they were an either or powder gun like the Savage. Barrel clearly says black powder or substitutes only. I have 2 stainless old model 700s that might get converted. Otherwise I will stick with the 54 flinter.

people are shooting smokeless in lots of guns that are not designed for it. i watched a guy sight in(from a distance)a cva wolf with smokeless powder back before muzzleloader season. he said he'd been shooting smokeless for 3 years now.i also know a few guys that are shooting smokeless in regular encore ml barrels. with blackhorn shooting as clean as it does i really don't see the need to shoot smokeless.

I wonder where these brave souls get their load data?

My first impulse is to say from their "nether regions", but that would be rude, I suppose.

One item I noticed while perusing the Remington site is that the new ML is a firearm, not a ML. I suppose the BATF didn't care for the setup, much like they put the skids on the original Savage.

I wonder if they'll ever catch up with the custom makers of similar designs?

Here in Michigan we have shotgun-only zones in populated areas. Muzzleloaders are included in the shotgun zones, but not the smokeless Savage and I suspect the new Remington 200 grain models. Bullet speeds for those fall into Centerfire Firearms category and are restricted to rifle zones-only.

If Michigan's Department of Natural Resources catches smokeless in a shotgun zone, the fine is huge and loss of hunting priviledges for three years usually are added-on.

Michigan doesn't regulate which muzzleloader you can use, just the powder you load it with. No mention of ballistics in the regs. The Savage ML and the Remington Ultimate are legal as long as they're loaded with BP or a sub. During firearms deer season in the two northern zones, muzzleloaders are allowed with no mention of powder type.
As far as I know, Michigan doesn't have a "stupidity law" to regulate people loading smokeless in BP/sub only guns....or ice fishing on a detached slab of ice with an offshore wind.



From the 2014 Michigan Hunting and Trapping Digest

During the December Muzzleloading Seasons.
"Muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a .. muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute."

Firearm Deer Seasons - Limited Firearm Deer Zone.(old shotgun zone)
"• A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
• A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches.
• A .35 caliber or larger air rifle or pistol charged only from an external high-compression power source, or a muzzle-loading rifle."

Firearm Deer Seasons - North of Limited Firearm Deer Zone
"Deer may be taken with handguns, rifles, crossbows, bows and arrows, shotguns,and muzzleloading firearms, including black powder handguns."

The reason is you can return the original Savage ML, and apparently the new Remington, back to a cartridge rifle with the installation of the correct barrel. (Think T/C Encore) If a custom maker uses a cartridge rifle action to build their gun, then it is subject to BATF rules and requires a Form 4473 to transfer.

Poster Bodkins lives in VA.

Yep, I got that. I was responding to your assertion that Savage and Remington MLs are restricted in southern MI. They're not, unless you load them with smokeless. You can however, use smokeless in the northern zones during the general firearms season, but not the December muzzleloading season.

Sticks and stones might break my bones...and so might 200 gr of blackpowder!

I never gave that assertion. That's why I wrote 'smokeless' next to the word Savage. Referring to the powder in the gun.

You should consider addressing the correct poster, when replying to poster comments here.

I'm done with this. Not going to get an argument on this subject. It's not anything that needs more of my explanation.

Wasn't intending to argue T7. As far as addressing the right poster, I use the quick reply and don't pay attention to the Re:. Since I posted right after yours, I figured you'd get it.

I've read about the Savage redesign. I'm a bit curious as to whether Remington determined that it would end up classified as a firearm or if the Feds heard about it, decided to investigate, and then declared it so.

Everybody is sharing their knowledge with you. If it aint made for smokeless, dont do it!

Thats the stated obvious.

I believe he's jumped ship on this. Probably went someplace where they'll tell him what he wants to hear.

kaboom.com/ forums?

or maybe the smokeless thing didn't work out in his gun