Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders New Remington 700 ultimate muzzleloader.... Smokeless? ??

tmitch your right an the box my friend ultimate muzzleloader the Remington 700 says its a muzzleloader but you have to go threw a ffl because you can change barrels on this .Just like the savage but savage can shoot modern powder. Now old Ned Roberts states this in the book on Cap Locks Rifle they put a small charge modern powder before the charge of black powder in cap locks in 1900s when shooting matches

I'd be willing to bet they knew full well what they were doing. That's a big company with a large legal department, but I don't think they'd try to "slip one under the rug" and risk a battle with the BATF. With the vacating of the market by Savage they were probably just trying to fill the slot as fast and cheap as possible, albeit not smokeless. The gun required very little design work and related costs on Remingtons part. Use a standard off the shelf 700 short action, screw on a .50 barrel and borrow/buy/rent a breech plug design from from someone else (Johnston), and there you have it. I am surprised though that they brought it out before it was proven with BH209. Another cost savings for Remington I guess, Western is doing it for them.

why spend a grand or so to shoot smokeless powder in a gun that it is NOT intended for
when you can buy a nef 45/70 and convert it for less than 500 bucks and not blow you self up

not complicated for me

It doesn't appear that Remington just threw together a bunch of regular 700 short action parts. I have one, and many of the parts used in assembly come straight out of their custom shop. It doesn't have a normal 700 action, mine has a solid bottom 40x action. Even the front ramp and front post on mine are custom shop parts borrowed from their custom shop 458wm.

The Blackhorn 209 deal is something they are working with Western Powders on, not an after thought. Remington went out and purchased the rights to the Johnston plug, so its use now belongs to them, to use as they see fit. They could have easily kept it the same, but their testing proved that it did not work for their needs, so they changed the steel to the highest level of hardness 416 Stainless currently made. They changed the threads, the fit, the casing, and the flash hole design. So now it does work for their needs. Western Powders has already tested the gun to their current highest recommended max published loads for Blackhorn 209. The gun is so strong, that last September they announced plans to work with Remington to test and develop new magnum load data specific to this rifle alone. Once this new level of testing was completed, they promised to publish this new "Remington Ultimate Only" data. Since that time they put out a blog on results shooting 150 grain by volume loads, which performed exceedingly well. Many in the industry have been pushing the gun, such as Bob Parker, with even heavier loads, having spectacular results. I would expect Western Powders to find the new ceiling for this gun before next hunting season, and it appears likely to be where Parker is at now.

I believed they figured things out fairly well. But it is a first year production gun, and I'd expect some bugs to pop up here and there as production guns by their nature will have a wider range of tolerance and QC than a hand built custom. But, I certainly do not believe they slapped together their cheapest parts to make this thing just good enough to fly and get on the shelves.

Best

I hope it works out okay as I find this, like pretty much everything having to do with rifles, interesting but a solution to a problem I don't have.

Sorry Gary, didn't mean to disrespect your gun nor infer that it is cheaply made (even though I used that word). What I was eluding to was that Remington did not bear the costs related to designing, and the tooling required to build, a non-form 4473 muzzleloader action and breeching system from the ground up. They took an almost identical route that Savage did when they brought out their first version smokeless 10ML. I still think it odd that they would bring out the gun without thoroughly testing it with the most popular and highest performing modern sub powder available. Does the owners manual that came with your gun even mention BH209? When they advertise it for 200 grains of Pyrodex, all I can think of is a filthy mess. I'm sure they're getting it sorted out and sounds like it will work fine, but to me that says they were pushing to market the gun. Again, not trying to trash the rifle, I'd probably buy one if I needed another. I like the looks of the laminated stock model with the receiver sight. Good luck with yours.

No reason to apologize, I recognize you have no experience with the actual gun and were speculating. I just thought I'd throw out my two cents based on my personal experience with the particular gun being discussed.

The manual makes it clear that powders proofed as smokeless are a no-no. Black Powder (the real deal), Replicate Subs of Black Powder (Pyrodex or 777), or Non-Replicate Subs (such as Blackhorn 209), would be mandatory. Blackhorn 209 is not a black powder replicate substitute, such as Pyrodex or 777. The replicas are designed to function just like black powder, i.e., load, smoke, water clean-up, etc. Blackhorn 209 is a non-replicate powder, used with nitro solvent and oil, that is proofed and classified as a black powder substitute. Western Powders has proofed this non-replicate blackpowder substitute for a maximum load of 120 grains by volume. They immediately tested the new Remington with this maximum proofed loading, and it was clearly evident that the gun is far more capable to be pushed further, hence, their announced project to work with Remington to develop a new load manual. As long as you stay within their maximum recommended guidelines, you would be safe.

As for replicate black powder subs, the only current recognized duplicates of the real deal are Pyrodex and 777. As for 200 grain volume loads, the manual is specific to a particular granulation or pellet loading by volume of 777. Blackhorn 209 is more energetic, so loading 200 grains by volume of Blackhorn would be higher than published by Western Powders and would be outside a proofed and recommended maximum loading. To the best of my knowledge their last bit of information put out on this subject was shooting 150 grain volume loads, which is thirty grains higher than their initial max load testing. Pretty certain that "Remington Ultimate Only" data should be published before too long.

My particular rifle did have a few bugs needing to be worked out, but it is running exceedingly well shooting nothing but Blackhorn. I don't get caught up in the hype over firing 200 grains in pellets, 209 vs LRM primers, etc., but I do understand the industry debate over successfully burning all four pellets. To my knowledge, no person has designed a 209 breech plug that was capable of using the superior fire power of the 209 primer to ignite all four pellets, because all 209 primer modules have an inherent spacial void between the primer and the fire channel of the breech plug which kills efficiency. The Johnston breech plug re-designed by Remington is able to maximize the fire from the LRP directly into the fire channel, having an end result of a stronger ignition firing into the load. It is clear that the new Remington does ignite all four pellets, which was not done before with the 209. So, that is the hype Remington is marketing via the 200 grain 777 pellet loads. But in reality, the best performance you'll find out of this gun will not be from those 777 loads, but will be found shooting Blackhorn. This has been repeatedly proven countless times since the gun hit the shelves.

Best

with black powder/bp substitutes being a total explosive it should burn everything you put in it.

It should, and evidently does going by GaryVAs experience. However owners of Ultimate Firearms muzzleloaders, whose breechplug design Remington bought the rights to, have found it to be BH209 unfriendly. Remington has apparently tweeked it to be compatible.

Well I'm glad to see at least one of you has the new 700 and likes it. I ordered one last week and should be here any day. Still don't understand how it's super strong, and western is working up a new MAX load chart just for this gun and yet everyone says it will not handle a small smokeless load, like the IMR-4227 That savage recommends for theirs.

The Johnson guy that invented this breech plug, did he invent it for smokeless guns or just BP?

it is called metallurgy(sp?)

bp barrels aint as strong pressure curvewise as smokless powder barrels are


the barrel will go boom
and you will go splat




do what ya gonna do man
no one seems to be able to talk any sense to ya


run on 2nd hand info and 2nd hand advice







better yet call Remington tech support and ask them for their smokeless loads they have tested and shot and recommend for their new bp gun...................................

Yes, and no. BP is an explosive, but it's blast characteristics are much different than smokeless powder, and thus the pressures generated are considerably different.

The Johnston plug was designed to shoot 777 pellets out of his gun. Previously, all production attempts to use and burn a 4-pellet load with a 209 primer failed. Though use of a weaker LRM primer, the Johnston design maximized use of the primer by directing 100% of the fire directly into the breech plug fire channel. The 209 systems required a void to be filled prior to the fire being pushed into the fire channel, which resulted in a loss of efficiency. Remington bought this system to use in their production muzzleloader, and it appears they intended to capitalize on the hype of igniting a 4-pellet load of 777. But, Remington also intended the rifle to be used with the popular BH209 sub, so they further modified the system in materials and design to reduce and/or eliminate the erosion issues experienced with the original design. But even with these improvements, the pressure limits of the design to seal between the nipple and casing, fall within the pressure limits of blackpowder and blackpowder subs. Even within those pressures, the design has limits to the point the seal fails and the nipple begins to erode. This seal, with its production tolerances, between the casing and nipple, in addition to the design of the fire channel itself, is not up to par to withstand the increased pressures of a smokeless charge. Though the materials themselves within the Remington are as strong as it gets, these design limitations would likely erode and fail in relative quick order, which would likely be hazardous to users and bystanders.

In relation to the Charlie Baltz ignition system, his is custom built with specific tolerances around a specific 45 caliber sabot-less smokeless load. Even with his system, use outside his strict smokeless guidelines could be catastrophic. Experimenting with his system is foolish, and using his system as an excuse to experiment with the Remington is far outside the bounds logic and common sense.

If looking for a sound method to address a desire to safely shoot smokeless from the Remington with the factory 50 caliber barrel, then one would need to explore having one of the established smokeless builders to manufacture a drop in breech plug which utilizes one of the proven 209 modules which will reliably seal at the higher pressures resulting from smokeless. The factory Remington is built around a CNC machined user friendly replaceable breech plug that does not require any adjustment for headspace. A builder could take advantage of this by adapting a different ignition system which is plug and play. If this was done, then one could maintain the rifle as factory stock and shoot certain smokeless loads, either full bore sabot-less, or sabot loads like the old Savage. This may be something that comes down the pike if there is a demand from end-users. If on the other hand you merely wish to convert the gun over to a dedicated smokeless gun, well this has already been accomplished numerous times by changing barrels and converting the gun to a 45 caliber sabot-less smokeless using various proprietary 209 module systems. Several builder have done this already.

Best

take your ml and shorten the barrel 5-6in ,i bet it will shoot faster. only thing slowing the bullet down is friction,less time in the barrel,less friction. short barrel shoots faster.
with smokelss it would lose speed.

That is a trait of the different explosive qualities of BP over smokeless powder, and again, the pressures involved are completely different. BP doesn't generate anywhere near the pressures of smokeless powder. This is how and why BP could be and was for centuries fired in barrels that were little more than wrought iron. If you put smokeless in those barrels, they will explode because of the different pressures involved.

The issue at hand is whether the barrel and breechplug in that 700ML was designed to operate with BP pressures (which it was) and whether it can handle the substantially higher, different pressures of smokeless (which it was not designed for).

Really








This has to be the dumbest advice I have ever heard concerning internal combustion properties for blackpowder or smokeless powder.
You need to shut the fugg up,stop putting out bogus science about friction and go read up on barrel lengths and powder burn rates.
Seeing the OP,s numbnut thread about "How I want to shoot smokeless powder in my new Remington 700 BP and BP substitute ML",is enough to drive anyone with common sense bonkers, the OP needs no help in injuring himself and is going to shoot smokeless powder in that gun come hell or high water no matter what anyone says to him about the danger of it.

The guy would lose probably anywhere from 20-50 fps in velocity for every inch he lops off a barrel.
And have unburned powder spewing out the barrel(probably half his charge)from lack of barrel length to burn the charge properly.

This is the stupidest advice I have heard in ages. This poster must be one of those gunshop pro types.

there has been a lot of hype about the new Remington Ultimate and while it is a nice gun and clearly not another attempt by big green to just throw another cheap smoker out there I would steer clear of smokeless.

I think the OP got the message loud and clear..

Seems that every time smokeless is mentioned in a muzzleloader people go into spasms, lots of guns shoot smokeless BUT they are designed to do so SAFELY..

the fact is that all muzzleloaders are inherently more dangerous than CF guns be it a SML or smoker. Why is this? Its the nut that stuffs the goods down the barrel and expects it to work without regard to safe muzzleloading practices. Muzzleloaders get blown up every year and not just from guys shooting smokeless in BP guns. smokers get blown shooting BP etc but its almost always from negligence. same goes for Smokeless guns, double loads, ramrods getting shot from barrels etc...

anyone that desires to get educated on SMLs can go to Dougs Message Boards/ Savage Smokeless Muzzleloading and learn all you care to know about the smokeless game.

the new Remington is a great platform to convert to smokeless, with the 40x style action and a decent stock it will make a great gun with the addition of a .45 barrel and plug system

Really








This has to be the dumbest advice I have ever heard concerning internal combustion properties for blackpowder or smokeless powder.
You need to shut the fugg up,stop putting out bogus science about friction and go read up on barrel lengths and powder burn rates.
Seeing the OP,s numbnut thread about "How I want to shoot smokeless powder in my new Remington 700 BP and BP substitute ML",is enough to drive anyone with common sense bonkers, the OP needs no help in injuring himself and is going to shoot smokeless powder in that gun come hell or high water no matter what anyone says to him about the danger of it.

The guy would lose probably anywhere from 20-50 fps in velocity for every inch he lops off a barrel.
And have unburned powder spewing out the barrel(probably half his charge)from lack of barrel length to burn the charge properly.

This is the stupidest advice I have heard in ages. This poster must be one of those gunshop pro types.

[/quote well,its very obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about.black powder is a explosive and does not burn at a so called burn rate like smokeless powder. you will gain speed with a ml barrel if you shorten it.i cut my tc triumph down to 20in long and gained speed. its been done,its a fact.i've seen it done with 2 tc ml'ers and a knight.oh,by the way,the guy that got me interested in cutting the barrel on my tc is a custom muzzleloader builder that shoots national events and was sponsored by knight for over 10yrs.i think he knows what hes doing.i watched him do his knight hunting ml and after seeing his results i did mine. the numbnut(op) is a good friend of mine and he is not planning on taking a rem ml out and shooting it with smokeless powder unless its been tried and tested to be safely done. he is only trying to see if anyone out there has done it yet.someone will do it very soon ,i'd bet on that.until you learn more and know what you are talking about stop the [bleep] name calling.

It is so dumb Southern Michigan doesn't allow the use of smokeless powder MZ's using smokeless powder.

dumb. dumb, dumb

No it's not. There's been smokeless muzzleloader bullet-holes inside kitchen cabinets of homes in Michigan shotgun-only zones.