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I've killed some squirrels with my old Daisy breakbarrel .177 but are .22 really the way to go for small game? I'm looking at getting an RWS 34

(I'm a newbie to real airguns)

If small game that your looking to kill, save your buck and get a benjamin marauder. I would say go 25, but a 22 will do. I have both, the 22 kills the 25 does it 5 times better.

I would second the Marauder, however the air supply for PCPs is daunting for some. I have a .25 and in the realm of airguns, it's a killer. If you go with the RWS 34, for small game I would pick the .22.

For sure the 25 Mod is a killing machine, 3/8" groups are no problem at 100 yards. There a lot cheaper than using a 22LR with the price of ammo now days, and I think it kills better than a 22LR. I have shot ground hogs out to 125 yards with it and they were drt

I have an RWS 460 that is a serious weapon. With heavy dome pellets have killed Varmints as big as skunks @40 yards+.

I set up a Discovery and had a lot of fun with it until the pump died. Wish I had gotten a Maurader from the get go. If I start over again doing pcp I will most likely get a Maurader in .22.

IMHO I think if you are likely to do a good bit of plinking oh can stick with the .22 and do just fine. You can find pellets locally and save a bit of change as well. If the purchase is strickly for hunting and you most likely won't put tens of thousands of pellets through it shooting paper and cans and random stuff (glass marbles is pretty fun) then the .25 would be a beast of a killing tool. Burn.23 grain pellets out of my nodded disco hit like a truck and would most likely penetrate to skull of anything I could want to hunt with it. I haven't measured or scoped it or anything but my .22 disco did everything a .22 short could do but a little quieter and cheaper a good bit cheaper. So I shot it a lot!

I think you spelled feet wrong.

No, that rifle will kill at that distance. Best I have done is killing a squirrel at 100 yards with mine. Killed hogs out to 50 yards, and coyotes past 40.

I don't get 3/8" groups at 100 yards with mine though. 1 1/2" is my avg.

I owned a Marauder but sold it. I didn't like dealing with the SCBA tank or hand pump. For a newbie to airguns, I'd look at a nice simple spring gun or even a Sheridan pump up. You still have a pumping issue with a Sheridan, but it's much lighter and you're not out a lot of money if you get tired of it. The RWS 34 the original poster recommended would be a good starting spring gun for hunting. And yes, the 22 has the edge for killing pests.

I like the air tank. I shoot the Marauder very often. Nearly daily. Only fill it about once a year. If I start shooting the Rogue .357 caliber, it uses way more air, though.

I did spell feet right, YARDS. These are serious pellets rifles and this isn't even the most powerful ones you can get. Mine will fire a25 cal, 25.39gr pellet at just over 979fps

Yes I know they are great rifles.I have owned one for a while.At 25 yrds they will rival any rimfire I own-several CZ's,tricked out 10/22's,52&75 winchesters etc.But you are not going to "easily" shoot 3/8" groups at 100 yards,nor will any rimfire ever made,and I have shot tens of thousands of rounds in rimfire benchrest competition.The Marauder is good for 1/2-5/8" at 50 yards on a good day,which is superb for what they cost.

You didn't have your Marauder tuned right if you were getting 1/2" to 5/8" groups at 50 yards. I have a non tuned 22 Syn Mod that will do less than that at 50 yards, and I haven't done anything to it.

I am more interested in those "easy" 3/8" groups at 100 yards-I can only imagine how small your 50 yard groups are.Even with your tuned marauder you have 30% less energy than a high speed .22 short.I love my marauder,but you can tune until you are blue in the face and not come close to a standard .22 energy wise.Accuracy?I would be willing to bet you could shoot a dozen 5 shot groups and not come near .375".

I am more interested in those "easy" 3/8" groups at 100 yards-I can only imagine how small your 50 yard groups are.Even with your tuned marauder you have 30% less energy than a high speed .22 short.I love my marauder,but you can tune until you are blue in the face and not come close to a standard .22 energy wise.Accuracy?I would be willing to bet you could shoot a dozen 5 shot groups and not come near .375".


[/quote
go over here (http://www.marauderairrifle.com/forum/) and tell them what a 25 mod wont do and what your thoughts are.

Spent plenty of time on that wonderful site! Have not been able to find any claims of "easy" 3/8" 100 yard groups. (or uneasy ones for that matter).

Doesn't most guns shoot one hole groups on the internet??

All Day Long, as well.

Thanks for the info to all.
I'm really not interested in a PCP rifle. I just don't shoot guns enough to justify the investment. I do realize they are powerful airguns.

I shoot my longbow every day and actually kill most squirrels, rabbits and other pests with an arrow.
There are times I need a rifle but with less power than my 22lr.

Buy the marauder and you will like it enough to justify the investment!I only have a Airforce hand pump and don't find it bad to use-but I weigh 265-I think it would be rough for a lightweight.The only thing I wish I would have done different is to not wait so long to buy one.Accurate,very quiet and plenty of ammo available.

I shoot a Beeman R9 in .22cal (.22cal is a much better killer than .177 IMO). Take out a hundred or so of these guys each spring with it. Works great in semi urban areas where noise and ricochet is an issue. Not to mention a nice spring air rifle is a lot of fun to shoot.

That's some good work Centershot. You're the reason I had to buy a .22 cal HW50S last fall. A step down in velocity from your R9, but the nicest shooting springer I've ever handled. Those Rekord triggers are super nice.
To the OP, if you can justify a bit more money, the Weihrauch made rifles are definitely worth it. (The Beeman R9 is made by Wiehrauch, same as their HW95)

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Weihrauch.htm

Velocity ratings are the worst thing to ever happen to spring air rifles.......how many gamos have been sold with thier 1200fps rating on the box? What they don't say is that the pellet is tin foil to go that fast and you cant hit anything with it when it does go flying out the barrel. My R9 shoots Crosman Premier HPs (14.3gr) at 650fps (I think it's rated at 800fps? who cares?). I have shot rock chucks in the head at 30 yards and seen the pellet hit in the mud 10 yards behind the chuck so hard I though I'd missed when it actually had passed through and made that big of a splat.

A quality air rifle is something you will cherish for life, a cheap one will sit in the closet unused. You tell me which is money better spent.

Amen to that..PeashooterJoe

If you are looking for a Springer, then buy the Hatsan 125 Sniper in 25 cal and don't look back , it is a beast for a air rifle. I like mine.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Hatsan_125_Sniper_Air_Rifle_Combo_Camo/2675/5269

A friend of mine has an Air Force Condor for sale. It does a .177 at 1,450 fps. He's got a silencer on it and has the pump for it as well. I could get someone a good deal on it.

Do you have iron sights and a scope on your HW50S?

I still haven't mounted a scope on my HW50S, been enjoying the simplicity of its irons. I have a 3-9 EFR Leupold for it still in the box. The irons on the Weihrauch are nice, the globe front has several inserts to suit your taste. A soup can is in trouble out to 50 yards or so offhand. I have a 3-12 RA Burris on my .25 Marauder that I use for sniping pests, but the handling between the two is like a flyrod vs a 2x4.

I picked up a couple Benjamin Trail NP XL rifles in .177 a week or so ago. I thought I was done with .177 since going to .22 but found these for a decent price. These jokers throw a tiny little pellet hard! While I still would've preferred a .22 I look forward to seeing what can be done with some heavier .177 pellets. So far I'm impressed but already decided to sell the second one and look for one in .22.

I started hunting small game with air rifles back when the .20 Beeman R-1 was first imported to the U.S. I had one of the first of them.

In 2000, my former home state of California clarified section 311(f) of their Fish and Game Code to make air rifles shooting pellets a lawful method of take for small game, but they also added resident upland game birds to the list of air gun game -including turkey. Turkey had a minimum caliber restriction of .20, at least through 2007, when I moved to Oklahoma.

An R-1 was more ordinance than I wanted to hump across high desert mountains chasing quail and chukar partridges with, so I sold it and used the proceeds to buy a pair of lighter, more compact Beeman R-9's, with one in .177 and the other in .20. I had both of these tuned to run at 15 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

I found the .177 to be highly effective, with the caveat being using pellets with high ballistic coefficients -examples would be Crosman Premier (both light and heavy), JSB Exacts, or Beeman Kodiaks.

In a "middle magnum" class spring-piston air rifle, it is entirely possible for a .177 to deliver more downrange energy to the target, if pellets of high BC are used, than the same powerplant in .22 can deliever. The reason being that the starting velocity will be higher and the high BC results in a higher percentage of velocity retention over distance, and since velocity is squared in energy calculations while projectile weight is not, the result is more thump. My .177 R-9 running 15 foot pounds at the muzzle will whack a 50 yard target with up to 9 foot pounds of energy. That's enough to shoot completely through a jackrabbit's noggin with the classic "behind eye / below ear" shot placement.

I didn't do much squirrel hunting out in California, but do a whole lot of it here in Oklahoma. I've not found the .177 lacking, or didn't when I still had it.

The .20, which I do still have, when shooting Beeman Field Target Specials, has a flat enough trajectory to give me an effective range of about 45 yards. The .20 penetrates well -about on par with .177 driven by the same powerplant, and obviously makes a bigger hole than .177 does, making holes that look more like .22 than .177. I might have been brainwashed by Dr. Beeman as a kid, but I still think .20 is the all-around way to go for a middle-magnum or magnum spring-piston rifle.

Another thing about the .20 and .22 is that inside of 35 yards, you can pretty much shoot any pellet you want to and whack critters dead with it.

That's not the case with .177 because some pellets, like RWS Superdomes, really ain't so super, at least in the ballistic coefficient area. The BC is so bad (.009) that they shed velocity quickly, so that at 25 or 30 yards, just about any .22 pellet shot from a rifle with the same powerplant will hit harder. That ballgame changes, though, when you use pellets with high BC (.021-.032) in the .177.

Here's another reason why I ditched the heavy and long R-1, mighty though it was, for the lighter, more compact R-9 platform....

Airgun ballistics being what they are, a whole lot more foot pounds of energy on the front end DOES NOT equal a corresponding difference downrange.

My R-1 I had, running at 19 foot pounds, would deliever about 11 foot pounds to the 50 yard line.

My R-9, running with a four foot pound disadvantage in muzzle energy, can whack a 50 yard target with up to 9 foot pounds of energy. Since I'm not often shooting game at the muzzle, but some distance away from it, how much energy I've got at the 50 yard line matters more to me than how much I've got at the muzzle.

My R-9 is tuned, but added power was a byproduct or secondary objective. The primary objective was increased smoothness of the firing cycle and reduced "hold sensitivity."

This isn't 1980 anymore and here in 2015, where I can take advantage of high BC pellets that didn't exist in .177 when I first started airgun hunting, the .177 is what I would choose over the .22 in guns running from 12 foot pounds muzzle energy to about 16 foot pounds, assuming the use of high BC pellets. Beyond 16 foot pounds, in something like a Theoben Crusader or Theoben Eliminator, it would be .20 if they still make them in that caliber and .22 if they don't.

I'm not a huge fan of pre-charged pneumatics, personally, but pneumatics generally are more efficient with larger bores than smaller ones -to a point. I don't really have anything against PCP other than I don't want to deal with scuba tanks or pumps when I could just cock, load, and shoot, as I've been doing with "springers" for decades.

I'm biased, but I highly recommend the Beeman R-9 or whatever the equivalent HW model is (HW-95??). It's an heirloom piece of equipment with good aftermarket support, a rifle designed with an eye toward easy spring and seal changes, and they have the excellent "Rekord" trigger which is still one of the best you'll find on a spring-piston sporter air rifle.

Great post TeleCaster
Thanks

Since my original post I've decided on the R9/HW95 and I've made pendulum swings in caliber choice from 177 to 22 and back to 177.

Your post is very similar to some other experienced R9 shooters on the Gateway forum (nced).

Also since my original post my nephew gave me his like-new RWS Diana 45 in 177. It was one of the early 800fps springers in the 1980's. It's a fairly long and heavy rifle and delivers quite a punch but I'm still in the market for the R9.

I am a little uneasy about all the tune/tuning folks will put into their air rifles. My plan is to shoot about 1000 rounds then decide if I want something changed.

In what part of Oklahoma are you located ?

Thanks again

Tahlequah....

And you're welcome.. I can pretty much promise you that an R-9 is something you'll not regret buying. If you do, you'd be the first person I know of who did.

BTW, what part of Oklahoma are you from?

Eastern Ok county, between Jones and Arcadia

I bought an R9.... It sucked goat balls.... just nicer goat balls than every other springer I've ever shot. The problem with the spring guns arrived when hunting with them, as they are very difficult to shoot from field positions and at steep upward angles (which is where the doves/starlings seem to like to hang out.)

I ended up going .22 Mac1 Discovery... and it's an absolute peach. 825fps with a 16gr JSB, and kills with authority.... even on rabbits and prairie dogs. Pump it to 2200psi and I get about 18-20 good shots.... and refills are far easier than the 3k/psi guns.

88 yds...


74 yds....

PCP's are fine, if you like to carry a pump (or scuba tank) with you......they have a place and are wickedly accurate and easy to shoot.

TeleCaster - the math does not win out with a hunting air rifle for me. The .22 is a much better killer than the .177 - velocity and energy levels via formulas would not suggest so, but 1000+ rock chucks with rifles of both calibers has absolutely shown me that the .22 kills faster and more consistently. The problem with the KE formula is that it does not provide for the additional frontal area (.346 for .22, .278 for .177; ~25% increase). In a slow moving projectile that has proved a substantial difference for me. Pass through energy is wasted energy. At the ranges I typically shoot (25-50yds) the trajectory difference is minimal. The .20 cal may be the perfect compromise but the availability of ammo makes it a little more difficult to deal with and the difference for me is not worth the hassle.

As usual, it depends on what you are doing with your air rifle, what game your trying to take (the op ask about hunting air rifles) and at what range your likely to be shooting.

I've owned one of those RWS Diana's in 22 cal' since somewhere back in the 70's ; Still appears unused
For what little I've shot it I've had success & a lot of fun with it . I think I might be over airguns now tho
Rich

I hope I never get over airguns - a nice spring rifle is the fountain of youth for me.

+1

Springers are nice for the $$$-I've owned RWS 34 & 45's and 2 Beeman R-10's,but they are no comparison to a pcp gun.My synthetic Marauder is factory tuned to shoot 25.39 grain pellets @ 820 fps,and I get 25+ accurate shots before pumping.While I don't get the accuracy that some claim,the gun will shoot groups under 1/2" at fifty yards way more often than not.The last three 5 shot groups at 50 yards averaged .379".The gun is also quieter than a springer and not hold sensitive-bipod,sandbags or whatever-poi doesn't change.I can consistently kill starlings at 60+ yards,and the .25 pellet make a very loud pop when it hits.

I've killed squirrels & crows @ 60 yds. with my RWS34 - .22. 700+fps @ the muzzle. The hard part is hitting them right.

I can't add much to TeleCasters excellent post. Have been a .20 guy since the late 1970s when I bought my first Sheridan Silver Streak. Have bought several more since then and they are a wonderful rifle if you like something light, beautifully balanced, powerful and made during a time of real American quality...these being the guns made before the family sold the business to Benjamin.

Since you are a bow hunter you won't mind the exercise of pumping. The velocity is about what one gets out of a springer without all the weight, length and recoil. This is specially nice when having to carry the gun all day. One can pick them up in the $100-150 range on GunBroker...

Another .20 is the above mentioned R9 springer...another shooin' machine.

The last .20 is a AirForce Condor SS. It will run 35-40 full power shots before it needed to be topped off. To keep it subsonic I run 13 grain pellets just over 1000 fps. It will run pellets well over 1200 fps. I have a .25 barrel setup for it but have not had the time to switch the barrels and try it out yet.

Good luck on your quest...

Bob

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...hrono_results_from_some_5mms#Post5312328

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=497476

I don't have any real hunting experience...............especially to compare with your rock chucking, but I've noodled this issue over a LOT in my spare time, and came to the same conclusion that "pass through energy is wasted energy" and being a big bore revolver guy, I naturally gravitate toward the larger frontal area of the .22cal. (Knowing RJM's love for the .41mag, it's almost a foregone conclusion he's also a .20cal fan. )

I'd pretty much settled on an R9 in .20 or .22 but after realizing that the .22 would have more ammo availability than the .20, and maybe a little more thump, I then started wondering if a .22cal R1 makes more sense. I don't have access to Gaylord's book on the R1, but apparently the R1 isn't just more powerful than the R9, but also a totally different design. So now I'm wondering if the weight and extra dollars up front are worth it for the potentially better design and extra speed without tuning. In a perfect world I'd have an R9 in both .20 and .22 and an R1 in .22, then see which one I preferred.

My style of hunting will be shooting ground squirrels from a (mostly) stationary position, so carry weight isn't as important as the smoothness of shot cycle (and thus accuracy), velocity with the heavy (high BC) pellets, and potentially the ease of tearing into the gun to lube/service/fiddle. Shots on ground squirrels can start to stretch out there, and wind is often a factor too, so a fast .22 seems like the answer. I don't know if 100yd shots could be the norm rather than wishful thinking--------they've got small noggins-----------but I'm hoping so. If body shots are still humane, then maybe kills beyond 100 are possible. Obviously accuracy and shooter skill are matter most, and the PCPs seem to deliver this the easiest, but I'm a sucker for that heirloom quality that TeleCaster referred to, and the self-contained, traditional, dated technology of a springer.

If a springer is going to limit my range, then maybe a .22cal R9 is enough, and I'll need to save my coins for a fancy PCP to really stretch my effective hunting range. A two gun approach might satisfy both "needs" and compliment each other.

Any additional thoughts and feedback are greatly appreciated, because I'm doing a LOT of educated guessing right now.

While I've been thoroughly hashing over this springer purchase and dissecting German brands, calibers and trajectories and air rifle scopes, my brother has a new squirrel problem so he runs down to Academy buys an $89 scope/rifle package in .177 and a tin of pellets. He returns home and after about a dozen sighting shots he dispenses with 4 squirrels, the farthest at 50 yards. He thinks I'm making too big a fuss over this decision

Nah, your brother just has a cool yard, which can make anyone jealous. A quality springer is worth the money, and the time making the correct decision. A plastic Chinese airgun is a cheap means to an end, and one you'll regret unless you're pretty tepid on the whole airgun thing anyway and think you'll lose interest in a week. At least that's my .02c.

I recently moved from the "country" where my nearest neighbor was a mile away to an area where the distances to other houses are a lot closer. We have our share of pigeons and other vermin in the area so I decided to get an air rifle. Ended up with an RWS 34.

Now I've been shooting for a long time and while not the worlds best shot I usually do pretty well but the 34 has taken me to school. Finally I went online and checked out some videos on shooting springers and I've gotten my groups way down from where they were but it's been a fun learning experience. Something to be said for the challenge of shooting one of these well.

Won't be long before that gun becomes 'inaccurate' and he wonders what is going on. Then he will see that the scope slid in the mounts, or the mounts moved on the rail, or the scope insides are all sloping around inside the tube. Then he will realize how crappy that trigger really is, etc....the cheap guns are ok for a few shots once a year, but if your going to shoot thousands of rounds through your rifle, then it is well worth getting a good one the first time around. What usually happens is that a guy will buy a cheapo, find out this is really fun, then buy a good one - in the process spend $200 on a gun that will never get used again because the nice rifle is so much better and fun to shoot. Don't ask how I know this......

As for shooting ground squirrels at 100 yards with an air rifle? Maybe, but I think there would be a lot of luck involved and there had better be no wind at all. Ground squirrels at 100 yards with a nice .22lr is not a sure thing. I think we need to be realistic here. 1/2 that distance and you will record more hits than misses, but it will still take some good shooting. You will be holding over about 3" and in a 5mph wind you'll be holding off about the same. These are short range weapons, nice and quiet so you can get in close and sometimes shoot several times before being noticed. If you looking for a 100 yard killer I would suggest a .17HMR.

Oh I agree. He doesn't have a long-term quality gun and he knows it. But until the squirrels come back he will probably never shoot it.

I could probably continue to get by with my RWS Diana 45 in .177 but I have got an itch for a .22 cal HW95L/R9 that just won't go away.

I don't think you will be disappointed with an R-9. Thing is, once you have a nice gun, you'll shoot it more. It's fun, accurate, cheap, quiet, easy to get ammo for them (big plus, have you tried to get .22lr lately?). Plinking cans, rocks, bugs, yellow jackets off a piece of meat, informal shooting matches are a blast at deer camp. They make you feel like a kid again - only this time with the gun you always wanted. Don't forget a nice scope with parallax adjustment down to 10 yards. I have the Nikon Prostaff Target EFR on my R9, gun came from Straightshooters.com love it.

Any scope creep problems with the R9?

Not with Beeman 5030M Mounts - be sure the peg is in the hole in the receiver.

When you are hunting with an AO scope do you just set it for your common shooting/hunting distance so you aren't fooling with it while Mr Bushytail hops from limb to limb? I'm guessing 25yds?

I'm just thinking that the AO is just one more thing to fiddle with. Fine for a target but not fine for a scampering critter.

I just put my AO scopes in the area that my average shot will be and turn the power down a bit. That way the focus stays sharp and a little wider field of view. If a precise long range shot is needed I usually will have time to zoom up and use the PA to fine focus...

Bob

Same here, set it for 25 and 3 or 4X for most shots. I have whacked several chucks when they were hiding back in the rocks and I could just barely see a head way back in the shadows. They think they are hidden so I can adjust the ao perfect and crank the power up and whack. Sniper like - lot of fun.

Pretty much the same for me too. I don't particularly like AO scopes either, however if you're going to use a scope over 3 power at air gun ranges, it's pretty much mandatory.

If they are hopping limb to limb or scampering, taking a shot is pointless no matter what set up you have.

A feeding squirrel will make many pauses, and give you ample time to make adjustments

With some scopes it's possible to adjust while aiming so you can ignore the range settings and judge by the sharpness of focus on the target.

The gain in precision will make up for any missed opportunities

1 1/4" @ 100yds for me. 110yds on pigeon, and 86yds for squirrel.