Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Legendary Arms Works Rifles-A new rifle manufacturing company

At least Reed finally gets some good news on this thread.

I guess I "offer up poison will be ignored"

Best of luck GFY!

I've been following this thread with interest. I don't know Reed but do know Mark Bansner,at least as a result of quite a few phone conversations, through mutual aquaintances,and as a result of having owned at least 1/2 dozen of his stocks.Mark not only knows rifles but is an experienced BG hunter as well, with as much or more experience as the majority of people posting on here.

I am not sure which of us owned one first but RinB and I have been using Bansner stocks going back quite a few years. I know i was first in my circle of friends in this area to have Mark's shop stock a rifle, but a good many more were built following my first one.I know where there are several in use right now on friends rifles and I would put the number at easily over 20 stock jobs on a variety of rifles.For some guys these have been "lifetime" rifles, taken everywhere from Newfoundland to Africa to Alaska and back without a hitch.

My own "favorite" was a M70 in 7 RM with Bansner stock that I hunted everywhere out west and in Canada for several years before I shot out the barrel (a 9 twist Krieger) that never changed POI in any fashion as long as I owned it. I was always impressed with the durability and reliability of the good bedding job that Tom and Clay at Mark's shop did on those rifles....in all that time the guard screws never even loosened.Others I have owned and shot have been of the same level of quality and accuracy.



Friends and I have lugged the rifles everywhere; never heard any comments about a Bansner stock being squared off too much,or uncomfortable to carry,or too heavy, or anything else remotely similar to those comments.

As to the actions I don't have any experience using them but have handled one Ed Brown rifle built for an acquaintance in the Peace River region of Alberta. The rifle was shipped to my LGS for transfer to Canada; the owner of the shop and I both hunted with the same outfitter,and he was transporting the rifle to Alberta.The action was very high quality...a long step above any Kimber or M70 Classic,and a had a silky smoothness to its workings reminiscent of a Mannlicher Shoenauer...it was that smooth and well made.

If the rifle were a "one lug" design, it's news to me since the action was used for all standard and magnum cartridges including the WSM line,loaded by the factories to 65,000 psi. so, having Reed jump through hoops to "prove" an already proven two lug actions design seems like a waste of the guy's time.

I don't know if LAW will be giving them the same level of finish as the original Ed Brown action but if they do anyone would have to be impressed. I liked it well enough that I wanted one myself; never got around to it. The rifle that went to Alberta was used by the owner up there with complete satisfaction...have not been in touch in a few years but spoke with him when I hunted up there and he and already shot a lot of game with it, and he considered it ideal for the game hunted in that country...mule, whitetail deer, black bear, moose, elk etc.

I would not expect the LAW to be as light as a Kimber,a nice feature that I like myself about Kimbers, but dramatically over played in importance.The twist thing I won't comment on except to say I like them spun faster myself if the bullet is built to take the torque,but not everyone chooses bullets for BG hunting based on BC alone;and many great hunting(not target) bullets do just fine with standard twists. YMMV.


The gist of all this is that Mark Bansner likely knows his way around BG rifles better than most;(certainly more than most of us on here) and knows how to build a rifle that will stand up to most of the demands dished out for real, not imagined, BG hunting. I don't know how these LAW rifles will turn out but in my eyes Mark's reputation precedes him and I bet they will be a good dependable piece of gear. I would not mind getting my hands on one myself if I could figure out what caliber I'd like.

I really don't need very much of anything right now.

Wish Reed and Mark best of luck with the new venture.

I got my first Bansner stock in 2004 for an M70. I never found it "squared off" and it and the Kimber Montana are the best fitting stocks for me and my build. It does retain a bit too much beef in the forearm for a no.1 contour, but that's a minor nit pick. It carries and balance superbly.

Here's that first High Tech stocked M70 on its maiden voyage:

Slick rifle Brad....looks familiar.

Yup!

LAW/Bansner stocks are good stuff for the money.

But regarding LAW rifles, I sure don't understand the color they chose for "The Closer"... fugly! They call it "grey" but it's showing as tan with black specks.

Someone there must be color blind to pick such a color for a mass-sale rifle...

Brad you talking to me or Reed?

I have not seen the color......course I'm the wrong one to ask....I'll hunt them with no paint LOL!

To heck with the rifle - nice bull!

Much like anything, we all have our preferences. I have McMillans, a Brown Precision and numerous Bansners. The Bansners just seem to fit me better.

I'm sure the bottom of the stock has been squared a bit to accommodate the bottom metal and maintain aesthetic symmetry.

Taint a deal breaker in my book and I hope LAW is wildly successful in this endeavor.

It takes a lot of courage to start a new rifle manufacturing company these days, especially one that is trying to build a semi-custom rifle at a popular price point. Good luck on that.

I build my own rifles on Savage Precision Target Actions, Remington 700 and now 783 actions. While primarily I build for varmint hunting, I also just like to experiment. One thing I have learned from actual shooting tests of various barrel twist rates, is that faster is better across the board. Not only that, all one needs to do is measure the length of a given bullet and plug the data into a twist calculator to obtain the desired twist. Here are two twist calculators and one ballistic calculator:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
http://appliedballisticsllc.com/ballistics/

As for .243" (6mm) bullets, what I discovered is that all the old ideas are completely wrong in light of the new monolithic copper expanding bullets and the compressed copper/tin compressed core jacketed frangible bullets. For example the 62 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade when fired in a 6mm PPC with a "standard" 1:14" twist would only occasionally hit a 100 yard target, and when they did they were completely sideways. So, without using a twist calculator, I followed the bullet manufacturer's recommendation of a 1:10" twist and ordered a corresponding Shilen barrel. That twist stabilized the bullet, but groups were still running around 1.5" or larger.

So I plugged the bullet data into a calculator and found the 1:10" twist was marginal for stabilizing that long (0.974") and light weight (62 grain) bullet. The calculator revealed that a 1:8" twist would stabilize the bullet at all velocities. A new 1:8" twist barrel chambered for the .243 WSSM shot ten round groups between 0.185" and 0.300" depending on conditions. I want the resulting Stability Factor to be at least 1.5 and closer to 2.0 if possible, in this case the 62 grain Varmint Grenade at 3,580 fps returned a Stability factor of 1.898, good to go.

This also proved true for the .224" regardless of cartridge. 1:10" Twist did not provide the degree of accuracy I was looking for in the .22-250 Remington with the 50 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade, but a 1"9" twist worked across all cartridges from the aforementioned .22-250 Remington, its Ackley Improved version, and the .223 Remington. It also stabilized the lighter Nosler 40 grain BT Lead Free and the Nosler 69 grain Custom Competition Bullet, as well as any other I worked up loads for.

So now my standard .243" twist is 1:8". And I use the 1:9" twist for all .224" applications, except a 1:8" twist for AR-15's with heavy bullets. I currently have two 1:8" twist barrels in the works for the 6mm PPC (Brux) and 6mm BR Norma (Kreiger), which should prove the application from the little PPC to the larger .243 WSSM.

It was also discovered that the 1:12" factory twist for .204 Ruger was just too slow. It was the reason that some had poor performance with 39 grain plus bullets. I began testing with a 1:8.5" twist especially for Berger's 50 grain HPBT .204 bullet. While the bullet shot consistently in the 0.5" range for ten shots, Berger discontinued it in favor of the 55 grain HPBT bullet. Still, that 1:8.5" twist kept the groups under 1" and with a bit of load tweaking would have probably done better.

That 1:8.5" twist also shot the 26 grain Varmint Grenade in the .25" class, and at 4,110 fps. I had a Hart barrel made for an AR-15 build with a heavy contour 1:9" twist barrel, that shoots Hornady's 24 grain .204 NTX BT bullet at 3,900 fps well under .5". It also handles every various brand conventional bullet similarly. So that now my standard twist for the .204 Ruger is 1:9".

So far all the supposed drawbacks of fast twists imagined by the pundits, bullets coming apart from too much spin, excessive spin drift, etc., have not shown up. So I recommend if we are to err in selecting a twist rate, err on the side of faster rather than slower - because nothing will make a twist that is too slow work optimally.

Bob responding to you and to anyone/no one.

Not sure what's going on with my camfire settings... should have shown responding to you but didn't. Weird. Also all my reponses are going into "wathced topics"... a new and wierd turn of events.

BTW, you and Dober hunt them "raw"... had his over at the house this week to fiddle with... it doesn't get much more "Dober" than this... it'll definitely frighten game being blue and all :

Yes to all of the above, especially the success part.

Skane, one reason I like the Banser stock so much is its wonderfully straight comb. I also think it has enough "beef" to hold onto to shoot well... not as thick as a chopped glass B&C stock, but not as thin as a, say, Brown or McMillan Compact.

Also, for a pre-64 m70, it has a cheekpiece which definitely helps acquire the typically higher mounted scope of a pre-64.

Thank you Paul for taking the time to answer so many questions from a very tough crowd, you're a brave man. The rifle seems to be very well thought out and looks to have the qualities to do nicely in today's market.

Your ? was not ignored he mentioned the magazine constraints would be listed on the website next week!

Reed a 223 Rem with an 8" twist would be tough to keep on the shelves.......

As usual you're observations are spot on Bob. 95% of hunters will be buying the ammo for these rifles and will pick "hunting" bullets in their favorite factory brand. They wouldn't know the difference between a BC or a STD and wouldn't care as probably 99% of game taken every year is under 300 yrds......well under that in fact. When I included the Kimber Montana as a competitor, it was strictly based on a price point and to be perfectly honest Kimber pretty much owns the ultra light market for what they offer at their price point. If LAW markets this rifle correctly and with a lot of visibility, they are going to do well. When Ed Brown offered the rifle, it came with a price tag of over 3K IIRC. These guys are able to produce them in volume with a good stock, as evidenced here already, and an accuracy guarantee to boot for half the price.

I meant it in the welcoming DeFlave context
If twists and mag contraints are copacetic they will be a good package
I realize its not a full blown custom but these things are mandatory
Some of the other things are a trade off that may not be exactly what I like but not a deal breaker

Agreed!

From awhile ago, here are some pics from a Campfire member that owned a Brown 704 rifle.

Reed, lightweight projectiles are not adversely affected by a faster twist. The adversity is for heavy/long projectiles trying to stabilize via a slow twist. Twisting fast will sell you more rifles, simple as that. Buy a few custom tubes and do a test for yourself. This sort of testing should be pretty cheap when you consider the potential benefit. Research is fun!