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SINGLE WALL TENTS VS DOUBLE WALL TENTS

I think there are more benefits and fewer disadvantages when using double-wall tents vs single-wall tents with wood stoves.

Single-wall tents are significantly lighter than double-wall tents and weight is a primary concern for anyone who does more than the occasional casual backpacking trip. But moisture will condense on the inside of a single-wall tent unless you use a stove to keep the interior warm. If you don’t use a stove inside, the condensation will get everything inside the tent wet, even if it’s dry outside. By the time that you add the stove and ground cloth, the entire assembly is as heavy, sometimes heavier, than a double-wall tent.

I own several single-wall tents and one is a small ultra-light that I use for solo backpacking. It’s ventilated some and when you can leave the windows down condensation is not too bad. If it’s cold enough that you have to zip up the windows, condensation is a problem. I keep a cotton bandanna readily available and the first thing I do in the morning is grab that bandanna and wipe the condensation off of the inside of the tent. It’s small enough that I can reach the entire ceiling without getting out of my sleeping bag and the process seems to work OK. But it’s not so easy on a bigger tent.

I do a lot of camping in places where there is no wood available. In that situation wood burning stoves are superfluous extra weight


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Double-wall tents do a better job of keeping out insects than single-wall tents without floors. There have been times when the vampire mosquitoes would have eaten me alive if I had been sleeping in a single-wall tent. One can employ methods such as repellent and staking the walls tight to the ground, to reduce the insect problem inside a single-wall tent, but it’s a lot of trouble and never quite as good as a double-wall tent. It’s much easier to keep out insects when using a double-wall tent.

Some people like the warmth inside a single-wall tent with a stove, in cold weather. That’s hard to disregard but that warmth comes with a price. Since single-wall tents are lighter than double-wall tents, you can carry a single-wall tent with a bigger floor area than a double-wall tent for the same or less weight. But the stove presents a hazard that must be accounted for. A good way to ruin a sleeping bag is to roll up against a hot stove while you’re sleeping. So you have to give up some floor space to the stove and the end result is the same or less usable floor space for the same or more weight. However, even with all that taken into consideration, it’s real nice in the middle of a snow storm to be able to lounge around inside a heated tent.

The small, lightweight, collapsible stoves require constant work to keep them going. You can only use small pieces of wood so you have a big pile of twigs and you have to keep feeding them into the stove to keep it working. If you go to sleep, which is of course what you’re hoping for, the stove will go out. The tent will get cold inside and moisture will condense and freeze on the inside of the tent wall. In the morning when you restart the stove all that frost will melt and things will get just as wet as if you had no stove at all.

I guess in the final analysis I just don’t want to have to deal with the stove. I usually wait until last light to setup my tent and settle in for the night. By that time I’m usually pretty tuckered out and I just want to get inside my sleeping bag and get some rest. I don't want to have to collect a bunch of firewood and break it into pieces small enough to use in the stove and I don’t want to have to mess around with a stove inside my tent.

When I rent horses for an extended trip, I take a big standup dome tent and a small propane space heater. I run the space heater for short periods of time to heat up the tent. The effect is about the same as using a wood burning stove because both heaters are running when you’re awake and they’re not running when you’re sleeping.



Wind in my hair, Sun on my face, I gazed at the wide open spaces, And I was at home.





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Originally Posted by Ed_T
KC is also either not impartial or has never used a modern tipi with wood stove. If they didn't work better, I wouldn't have spent the last 30 years camping and hunting with them.

I own a Go-Lite Shangri La 5. I bought the nest and had it made into a half nest. Works pretty good. You can sit in your Crazy Creek chair in the vestibule and run your Whisperelite in the rain and wind and stay comfortable. Life is good. I have setup a small wood burning stove in the vestibule but it's a PITA that I don't want to mess with. That tent gathers dust in the store room.

When I need a winter tent I use a North Face VE-25. The tent in this photo is an old one. Hilleberg now makes a better tent.

[Linked Image]


Unlike others in this debate, I have no profit at stake in this discussion. You can gauge impartiality from that.

KC



Wind in my hair, Sun on my face, I gazed at the wide open spaces, And I was at home.





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I've spent a bit of time in a Hille Nallo 2 and a 3GT, and ate a couple meals in a 2GT, none of which I own. FWIW, I am usually packed the lightest, and generally end up carrying the tent as a result. Were I to pick between them, I'd pick the 3GT. Killer vestibule, and enough room to wait out crap weather in a less than ideal pitch is really nice to have. Hilleberg makes a hell of a tent.

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Originally Posted by KC
[
Unlike others in this debate, I have no profit at stake in this discussion. You can gauge impartiality from that.

KC



KC , I feel that is an attack on my integrity, and honestly I take offense to that.


Lightweight Tipi Tents and Hunting Tents https://seekoutside.com/tipis-and-hot-tents/
Backpacks for backpack hunting https://seekoutside.com/hunting-backpacks/
Hot Tent Systemshttps://seekoutside.com/hot-tent-combos/
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Originally Posted by Kevin_T
Originally Posted by KC

Unlike others in this debate, I have no profit at stake in this discussion. You can gauge impartiality from that.

KC

KC , I feel that is an attack on my integrity, and honestly I take offense to that.


Oh have I hurt your feelings? Boo hoo. You are insulted. Well go sit in the corner and sulk.

Stop encouraging people to buy $1,500 tent, stove, etc., setups that are no better than a good 4-season dome tent at half the price, and maybe your integrity can recover.



Wind in my hair, Sun on my face, I gazed at the wide open spaces, And I was at home.





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Really mature response I don't need you for self validation. For your edification, we have tents similar priced and sized to the Golite you own. Bigger tents cost more, it is a fact of life. However, if you want to continue to post the same copy and paste you always do, I will challenge you to tell the full story, which is that you are leaving out facts.

I think we can agree to disagree.


Lightweight Tipi Tents and Hunting Tents https://seekoutside.com/tipis-and-hot-tents/
Backpacks for backpack hunting https://seekoutside.com/hunting-backpacks/
Hot Tent Systemshttps://seekoutside.com/hot-tent-combos/
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Pretty lively debate here! I'll come down on the side of ultralight woodstoves and teepees, and I am a totally unbiased consumer of products. I have no links to any companies whatsoever.

I started out as a double wall tent kind of guy and used to use Moss tents - then on to Bibler and Hilleberg. And I still use those tents occasionally. I also have and use tents from The North Face, Nemo and Montbell. If I was to buy an old school tent with a floor these days I'd probably go with Nemo. I really like the tent I got that rather than poles uses pump up 'airbeams'.

I do live and work in Alaska - I do a lot of work in the field and often use the tents in remote base camps for up to a month at a time. For hunting these days I pretty much ONLY use teepees and woodstoves. Way lighter and FAR FAR drier. Only reason i ever use a tent is for mosquitoes, but by hunting season there aren't many bugs, and for just a few mosquitoes headnets work great.

And I have used a teepee in the snow. Did it on an elk hunt this fall. By the time we went to sleep the ground was totally dry. I also vent under the tent bottom and we had NO moisture on the walls. But venting is key. We had 4 people in the tent and the tent and woodstove all together weighed around 5 pounds.

Best of all, with a woodstove you don't have to bring along those bulky propane cans. I did a 10 day hunt in the Brooks range with a woodstove and one can of propane. We found wood up to 4400 feet in the Brooks Range. On Kodiak the best wood is dead alder and willow right at the tree line at around 2000 feet. Often the wood is much more moist down in the trees.

I can't even imagine going back to the bad old days of being cooped up in a tent. Woodstove and bare ground, warmth and conversation are the way to go. I remember hunting in the old days when after scarfing a meal down everyone would retreat to their tent and huddle in their sleeping bags. Or how about those 3 days of hibernation during a really bad storm? No More - those days are OVER.

I think the only time I would use my old Bibler or Hilleberg these days - other than in a base camp - is on a ski mountaineering trip.

Here are some photos - first the old days of mountaineering. I used a Bibler that is hidden in the lower left in this photo within our snow wall during a ski ascent of Shishaldin Volcano out in the Aluetians - we still also used a BD mega mid for a cook tent! This is the sort of trip where a mountaineering tent makes sense.

[Linked Image]

The next photo is of the inside of our teepee during an elk hunt last fall. We had earlier cleared off the snow before we pitched the teepee. The heat of the woodstove has already dried out the ground. The stove and tent in this photo weigh 5 pounds total including the pole.

[Linked Image]

Finally - living the life in the Brooks Range. It does not look like there is much wood - but there is plenty to found. This tent and woodstove weighed around 4 pounds total.

[Linked Image]


Last edited by pgsalton; 02/10/15.
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Originally Posted by KC
Originally Posted by Ed_T
KC is also either not impartial or has never used a modern tipi with wood stove. If they didn't work better, I wouldn't have spent the last 30 years camping and hunting with them.

I own a Go-Lite Shangri La 5. I bought the nest and had it made into a half nest. Works pretty good. You can sit in your Crazy Creek chair in the vestibule and run your Whisperelite in the rain and wind and stay comfortable. Life is good. I have setup a small wood burning stove in the vestibule but it's a PITA that I don't want to mess with. That tent gathers dust in the store room.

When I need a winter tent I use a North Face VE-25. The tent in this photo is an old one. Hilleberg now makes a better tent.

[Linked Image]


Unlike others in this debate, I have no profit at stake in this discussion. You can gauge impartiality from that.

KC



The amount of money I make from wood stove sales wouldn't get me very far. What really bugs me is when people make statements without experience.
If someone has extensively used a tipi and wood stove; it doesn't matter whether it is an SO, Kifaru, Ti-Goat, Wyoming Lost & Found etc and if they don't like it, I have no problem. But when you make blanket statements without experience using a product, that is different.
I advise a lot of people on gear. If they are camping above timberline, I often recommend something like a Hilleberg.
I own or have owned tents from The North Face, including a VE24, Sierra Designs, Bibler, Marmot, Big Agness, Mountain Hardware, Tarp Tent, MSR, Kelty, Terra Nova, Mountain Smith, Kifaru, GoLite, Seek Outside and I am sure I am missing a few.
Most were good tents. I don't think I would say any of them sucked for what they were intended.For my use a tipi with wood stove works best.
The store where I work sells Mountain Hardware, SD, Kelty, and Seek Outside. We will likely be selling Hille and possibly Crux in the near future. My guess is we will still sell more SO than the others because that is what our customers are looking for.
If someone were to ask me about elk cartridges, I could give them my opinion on the 300 H&H, .308, 30-06, 7mm-08, .325WSM, .338 Federal, .243, as I have killed elk with them all. I could also relate my experience in being with others that have killed elk for probably another half a dozen cartridges. But if someone asked me about a cartridge, I had no experience with, I would refrain from offering an opinion, except to state what has worked for me and why.
One other point. The SO BT2 tipi sells for less that $300 with a stove jack.


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Gawd, I detest this sort of crap, it really detracts from a great forum and is so useless to anyone seeking advice from the more experienced guys here.

KC, in the years I have participated in this forum, I have always had great respect for your opinions and posts, based on a lot of experience.

I am saddened to read your unwarranted comments here on Kevin and EdT, whom I alsio greatly respect. NO, I have never bought anything from either of them, never met them and have spoken on the phone only with Kevin, so, this is just an uninvolved opinion.

I think your behaviour here is foolish, uncalled for and offensive and should cease now.

I am about your age, started hikingat age 10, solo camping in the BC wilderness in 1964 and have spent many periods alone in my mountain tents, in every month and for weeks at a time.

I have used/owned many tents, including three Hilles, four tipis and two wood stoves. For ME, in BC, for my usual trips now, I prefer my Hilles for several reasons. But, a heated tipi, properly set up is FAR more liveable and for longer trips, it is better in most situations.

So, maybe give some credibility and respect to Ed and Kevin, they well deserve it.

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Originally Posted by SNAP
Gawd, I detest this sort of crap, it really detracts from a great forum and is so useless to anyone seeking advice from the more experienced guys here.

SNAP:

I totally agree and I avoid this kind of bickering most of the time. But it bothers me when people tell a person new to backpacking that they have to spend $1,200 for teepee/stove/nest combination and that anything else will be inferior. When we all know that they can buy a good 3-season tent for $300 that will serve their needs 95% of the time.

Look at the Seek Outside web page and you will see that they charge obscene prices for what's nothing more than a fancy sewn tarp and then they have the gall to get offended when someone points out, in the interest of full disclosure, that they sell the products which they are promoting.

I'm sorry that I have strayed from my normal MO of avoiding controversy. I apologize.

KC



Wind in my hair, Sun on my face, I gazed at the wide open spaces, And I was at home.





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since when do you have to spend 1200.00 on a tipi and stove? how big of a tent do you get for that price is probably a bit of overkill for anything above 8000 ft.


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i have had so many tents that i cant remember them all but since i am not a mountaineer, i will stick with tipis and stoves since i will be in them for more than a few days at a time on a hunt or hiking trip


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Originally Posted by whambasted
since when do you have to spend 1200.00 on a tipi and stove? how big of a tent do you get for that price is probably a bit of overkill for anything above 8000 ft.

whambasted:

Here's the web page for Seek Outside. Seek Outside
Look at the 6-man bundle. Determine how many people it will actually serve with a stove and a half nest, then judge for yourself.

KC



Wind in my hair, Sun on my face, I gazed at the wide open spaces, And I was at home.





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My Hille. Saitaris is $1395.00 USD, IIRC and is fine for ONE on extended wilderness trips in BC. I will not use lesser tents based on a lot of experience, so, the price issue is a wash, IMO.

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I think I'm gonna' have to try a tipi and a stove this Fall.....

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Originally Posted by KC

Specially when the stove gets going because the ground thaws and you get to sleep in the mud.



I can't say I have experienced this.

The stove dries schit out quick. Real quick.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/9578645/gonew/1/FS-_Hilleberg_Nallo_3_(_Green)#UNREAD


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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"For late season elk hunting, sheep hunting, AK caribou hunt, winter camping, you need a 4-season, double-wall tent, with a full-coverage fly, a floor and a vestibule that will stand up to high winds and heavy snow loads. The best on the market are made by Hilleberg. Yeah bite the bullet and pay the price. The Hilleberg Jannu and the Hilleberg Kaitum are bombproof tents and are about as light as you find for a 4-season tent.

When we all know that they can buy a good 3-season tent for $300 that will serve their needs 95% of the time.

KC "

A bit of contradictory advise here, seems to me. What is it a $300 tent or a 4 season Hilleberg.
The Jannu is $975 The Kaitum is $865 to $925.
A similar sized tipi from Seek Outside, The Backcountry Shelter pricing starts at $629. I sure don't see anything obscene about that pricing.
Oh yeah, if you want to compare $300 tents, then compare to the BT2 which starts at $229.

And as I said earlier, if the OP chooses a Hilleberg, he will be well served. They are excellent tents.


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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by KC

Specially when the stove gets going because the ground thaws and you get to sleep in the mud.



I can't say I have experienced this.

Travis


Me either, and I've slept in plenty of tipis in cold weather. Even with a big stove, only a small bit of ground next to the stove thaws, and that's where the woodpile goes. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I rarely sleep right next to the stove anyway, red-hot metal and $500 sleeping bags are not a good combination.

There certainly are trade-offs between conventional tents and stoves/tipis. Once 4 of us used a big Kifaru 12 man on a late season hunt. We pulled our stuff in on sleds. Had to pitch the tipi on uneven rocky ground, so we shoveled snow inside for our sleeping platforms and leveled it out, worked great. We also slid our sleds with gear right inside, didn't have to unpack and it kept our gear organized. When the fire was going in the stove, we had to strip down to t-shirts inside.

Try that with your double-walled bathtub-floored tent.




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Lot's of good perspectives here. I'm really enjoying reading this. I think there's room for both types of tents as they each have their own strengths.

No firsthand with hot tipi, well other than seeing Travis' at one of the Icebreakers. Looked pretty nice. I've spent a lot of time in the old USMC shelter-half tents, in a previous life though.

Wife and I have been camping in a Trango-2, and an Alaskan Guide 8-man for many years.

In cool temps above zero, below freezing, the Trango stays pretty nice inside just from body heat. The AG8 warms up quick with a single-mantle coleman lantern.

A couple years back we bought a 12x14 wall tent, with a cylinder stove. That thing is like a house. Awesome comfort. But it is a fair amount of work to put up/take down, it's heavy, bulky, and has big flat surfaces for the wind to work on.

So, a few days ago we put an order in with Seek Outside for a 12-man tipi. We are going to use it for camping and setup near the truck, and put the big wall tent stove in it for heat in the cold temps. Hoping we love it, as it looks like it will be excellent in wind, not heavy or bulky, and setup/takedown fairly fast.

In the last couple months I've been doing a lot of reading on these tipis on different websites. I've read a lot of Kevin's posts and do not recall him ever calling any other product inferior. He has shared a lot of info about the capabilities/limitations of his product, and how can anybody fault that?


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