Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Bad guide/outfitter

September 2014 hunt report
Days – 14/9/14 travel day 15/9-24/9/14 hunting days 25/9/14 travel day back to hotel
Outfitter – Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures Ltd
Guide – Tyson Musil of More Musil guide service
Area - Total Outdoor Adventures Bull river north guide area southern British Columbia
Tags – Bull Elk, Mule deer, black bear and Wolf

Introduction
I’ve been hunting for over ten years in Australia and on several overseas guided hunts and have never had a more disappointing experience than dealing with Tyson Musil of More Musil guide service and Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures Ltd. My reason for doing this is to hopefully stop anybody else having an experience like I have recently had. I’m utterly discussed with the way the majority of this hunt was conducted and the way I was treated after paying close to $9000.00 US dollars for a 10 day guided hunt.

Back round
In Mid 2013 I began researching booking a rocky mountain elk hunt after lots of research I decided that I wanted to hunt in the rut to experience the bugle in a wilderness area with the use of horses. The Kootenay region of BC seemed to be the area where this type of hunt could be conducted after contacting several outfitters and contacting their past clients I was told by several other Australians that I should get in contact with Tyson Musil of More Musil guide service. I contacted Tyson Musil of More Musil Guide service below is his description of his operation from his initial email to me.

I only book hunts I can personally guide myself, that way I can ensure you are going to have a good hunt. You can book a hunt with the best outfitter in the world but if you have a [bleep] guide you’re going to have a [bleep] hunt. I only book in areas that I have guided in for years and know well so you know you’re going to see game. Long story short I'm putting my personal name on the line every time so if the hunt didn't go well then I can make it right at the end of the day. I can't guarantee you’re going to kill but I can guarantee you'll be in great area with a lot of elk, you will see game every day and you'll be in a first class camp with exceptional gear and horses.

Booking
After talking to several references I decided to book a hunt for September 2014 Tyson recommended Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures guide area. Tyson stated he knew the area like the back of his hand and had experienced an above average level of success it was described to me as 500 square KM area with a single access logging road that received little resident pressure and the residents that did hunt the area only hunted of the road usually using quad bikes. I was told that for the duration of my hunt I would be the only guided hunter in the area I was told by to expect plenty of elk action as well as seeing other game animals on a daily basis. I was sent a contract from Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures that was paid in full by the dates in the contract.

Hunt itinerary
The plan and what unfolded were quiet different before leaving Sydney Australia I was told I would be picked up in the early morning from my hotel in Calgary on the 14/9/14 driven to Total Outdoor Adventures main south camp (3hr drive) where we would pick up the food and horses/horse float then drive to the north camp and pack for 3- 4 days in the mountains then spend the remainder of the day riding into a high basin set up camp for the night then hunt the following morning this way I would have 10 days of total hunt time with a day each side getting in and out of the area.

Ankle Concerns
Around 2 months before leaving Sydney for this hunt I started getting ankle problems from an injury that occurred 2 years ago after seeing a specialist and getting a MRI I was told I had severed a main ligament and had a fair amount of cartridge damage. I described the trip I had planned based on information from Tyson Musil the doctor said he was okay with me going as long as I was cautious and explained if I severed another ligament I would require surgery to be able to bare any weight on that foot. I quickly informed Tyson Musil via a phone call and communicated my concern he assured me we could ride the horses to all the elevations he planned to hunt and said I would just need to communicate with him during the hunt any limitations I had and he stated he could go as fast or as slow as I wanted.

Wasting the 1st day
I had arrived in Calgary the previous day and was expecting to be picked up at 8am from my hotel as discussed via text with Tyson Musil before me leaving Sydney. I bought a prepaid sim and called Tyson several times that day and night trying to confirm the pickup time every call went straight to his voice mail. At around 10 pm that night I received a call from Tyson he said one of Total Outdoor Adventures guides had quit the day beforehand leaving a client with 1 day left on his hunt and he had been in the bush all day filling in guiding the client. He then went on to describe the hunter as a typical useless fat unfit American this was the start of plenty of unprofessional behavior and bad attitudes that I was to witness over my time spent with Tyson Musil and Total Outdoor Adventures. I asked if he was still picking me up at 8am Tyson said he would be there at 11am as he had some things to do beforehand and to not worry as we had plenty of time to get up into the mountains before dark. Tyson Musil picked me up at 11am as we made our way to Sparwood he received a call on speaker phone from a work colleague from this call I found out that Tyson Musil had been sleeping with Lisa Cocciolo (the wife of the Outfitter who’s area we were hunting in) when he was finished with the call he spilled the beans and said that Vince Cocciolo had found out what was going on in the last week or so and that they had already had an altercation and that Vince Cocciolo had threatened his life so with me thinking to myself “what have I got myself into here” we drove to his father’s house in Sparewood where he picked up some gear we would need on our hunt then we picked up his personal gear from his house we then spent a good hour at a local workshop where he had to get a toe ball welded to his truck so that we could toe the horse float we were to pick up. By this time it was around 4 pm I was wondering how we would manage to get into the mountains before night fall as we were obviously wasting the day with things that should have been sorted out beforehand Tyson Musil assured me we had plenty of time and that all would be fine.

Meeting the Outfitter
Next we met Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures at a super market when I was introduced to her (the Outfitter I had paid for this hunt) she barely said hello and continued shopping so the three of us casually wasted another good hour or more picking up food for our hunt as well as food for others in their south camp. Once the shopping was taken care of she pulled out some documents for me to sign and my tags.

Catching horses and south camp
By the time we had arrived at the horse float we were to use in Total Outdoor Adventures southern area it was late afternoon we then had to wait for Lisa Cocciolo for quite some time Tyson Musil explained to me that we would have to catch some horses as they had only caught enough for the hunters in the south camp before the season had started and Lisa Cocciolo knew where the free horse would be grazing. By the time she arrived and we had the horse float attached it was close to dark I was thoroughly disappointed by this stage by the care free attitudes and the in efficiency so far. We found the horses who took off at our first attempt to catch them Tyson Musil said to turn his truck around and drive back the way we came he would follow them on foot. Somehow I managed up driving! Lisa Cocciolo’s attitude through the whole time I spent in Total Outdoor Adventures area seemed to be “somebody else can take care of it” (this coming from one of the owners) a half hour later in the dark she had guided me to a dead end not big enough to turn around in due to the toe ball only being fitted that day we quickly found out that it was quiet easy to jack knife this truck/float combination and very difficult and time consuming to fix after fixing the issue Lisa Cocciolo managed to quickly jack knife the trailer again more time wasted. The end result was me and Lisa Cocciolo taking turns reversing the truck and float downhill on a logging road for the next hour. When we finally found Tyson Musil he had not found the horses he dropped me at a walk bridge at around 10.30pm and said I’ll keep looking until midnight walk over to camp see if they can feed you if I’m not back by midnight find a place to sleep. So I walked over to the main south camp with all my gear feeling greatly disappointed.

South Camp
When I walked in the door of the main cabin there was 5 or six clients sitting in one corner looking miserable and a similar number of guides on another side of the room I said hello and barley got a response there was a Australian couple and another Aussie guy that recognised my accent and asked me who I was and why I was there. I filled them in when I asked if they were hunting the couple said that they were guiding and the other Aussie guy was helping with a bit of everything I asked if they had much experience hunting elk they replied it was there first time hunting them (so Total Outdoor Adventures to the best of my knowledge had two virgin elk hunters guiding paying clients). Shortly after my arrival the clients went to bed some of the guides and the cook stayed awake I introduced myself and told them that I was hunting with Tyson Musil after they knew I was a paying customer they began to bring up the following topics regarding Total Outdoor Adventures operation

1. The fact that Lisa Cocciolo was having an affair with Tyson Musil and that her husband Cocciolo was un contactable and had left them to run his operation and so far the season was a disaster

2. They didn’t have a competent wrangle in camp only a girl in her late teens who had started that day without any experience working as the wrangler

3. The fact they had no hot water so far that season due to a fixable issue with the plumbing/water tank

4. The fact that the lady cooking was Vince Cocciolo’s mother who had planned on having a holiday at their camp and instead had been cooking full time for everyone to hold up the fort

5. That they had 5 or six clients in camp with a day or 2 left on their hunts and only one elk had been harvested

I sat in disbelief listening to all this made me sick after a while the Australian girl came back and told me which bunk to sleep in I waited till around 1am for Tyson Musil to come back which he never did so I went and laid down to a the first of many sleepless nights worrying what else could go wrong not the best start to what was supposed to be a hunt of a lifetime.

The Next 7 days
Below are some of the key points that made this a terrible experience I ended up leaving on the 7th day as I had no wish to spend another 3 days with Tyson Musil

1. Tyson Musils general bad attitude regarding me the hunt and that he felt he would get paid for the hunt due to sleeping with the outfitters wife.

2. Tyson Musil having an attitude of keep up or get left behind regarding most of the hunt

3. Tyson musil treating this hunt and me as a inconvenience rather that a paying customer

4. Tyson Musil Physically mistreating the horses eg kicking and punching them to get them to co operate

5. Tyson Musil trying to convince me on several occasions to take animals I did not have tags for if I gave him additional funds

6. Tyson Musil telling me if I want to shoot a goat/moose he would get resident tags and make out he took the animals at a later date for legal reasons

7. After 7 days of riding into high basins then calling, glassing and walking game trails I had not heard one single bugle or seen one mule deer only 2 cow elk and a 5 point immature bull as well as one immature black bear

8. On the nights we spiked out Tyson musil after stating he had top of the line camping gear never brought a tent or even a trap when it was requested

9. I’ve never seen so much hunting pressure plenty of locals camping with horse floats along the bull river road (I was told this area received little resident pressure)

10. The North camp which I told had running hot water did not it had been damaged by a flood several years ago and only party repaired

11. The horses had not been ridden since last year and had a bad temperament and were un fit

12. Tyson Musil claimed to know this area like the back of his hand, on the second day of hunting he took me to an area he admitted he had never been to before

13. Apart from the first trail we used the others seemed to have not been maintained in a few years with plenty of dead fall to negotiate

After the Hunt
After returning to Sydney I contacted Vince Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures and said I had concerns regarding my hunt I was promptly contacted by Tyson Musil who begged to keep the matter to myself I asked for a refund which he agreed to then came back and threatened me with legal action if I was to post what happened. I then contacted Vince who after being informed of what I experienced has stopped replying to my emails.

This sort of situation is far more commonplace in BC than is admitted by many involved. We have an open GO situation where any foreigner can buy/own GO concessions and hire ANY foreigner who usually knows squat about BC hunting or client service....seen this many times.

The legendary Bull River, is among the most heavily hunted areas in the Kootenays, by BC residents and has been this way for 50-60 years. I am a member of a pioneer family of the Kootenays, worked for the BCFS near there starting 50 years ago and I would NEVER advise a hunter from "OZ" to book with an outfit there.

There are SOME good outfitters here, I will NOT post my opinions on this here, but, can maybe help you for any further hunts here. You are WELCOME and I am bloody sorry that these azzwipes wrecked your dreamhunt.....had this happen to me too.

These are the same G/O that the government here in bc wants/did give 25% of the AAH (annual allowable harvest) too.
Thats too bad MR84 it turned out that bad, I can believe it as that part of the province is saturated with hunters, and the elk, mule deer pops are way down, surprising you didn't get a bear though.

Holy Sh*t, sounds like you booked a trip to the Jerry Springer show vs an Elk Hunt. Sorry to hear this.

I'd suggest editing the topic by adding the outfitters name to Bad guide/outfiiter for potential hunters doing a google search review on the guy.

MR84,

I'm sorry to hear of your unfortunate incident, but I have to say IMHO it is very bad form to join a forum for the soul purpose of trashing outfitter of persons X,Y, or Z.

I hope your future posts are more.....positive.

Welcome, BTW.

MR84
Sorry to hear about your hunt but it is pretty common from what I hear of this outfit, I have yet to hear a good thing about them and can not believe they are still able to stay in business.
If your story is true and accurate please contact the proper
authorities in B.C. to help in having them shut down.
Thanks

Very sorry to read this. When I was planning my first hunt in BC a number of years ago, moose and elk primarily, I posted here and Kuteney (is he still around?) suggested a few of the "bigger" name folks. One being Stone Mountain Safaris. Whilst they were a bit more $$ than I had planned I took his advice and had a wonderful trip. Next trip I suggest you ask here first.

Me, just had to change my handle as my old computer died last year and I lost all my old login material.

I am glad that I was able to help, but, yeah, it is brutally expensive to hunt here, even for we residents.

SMS has a great rep. and there are several others I would suggest, BUT, NOTHING justifies a shabby situation like this and it is NOT the first such that I have encountered.

AkBob5, I disagree, buddy, I think that his post is most appropriate, in good taste and serves to warn others who may book with this character and be essentially defrauded as he certainly was.

I find it most embarrassing when a guest in MY country is mistreated, cheated or maligned in ANY manner. I am a VERY proud Canadian, ANY such situation, especially to a fellow Commonwealth citizen is an insult to my country.

Under the current, vile, "neo-con" government in BC, the chances of any sanctions to this outfit are, unfortunately, slim and none.

MR84;
Welcome to the 'Fire from south central BC - about 5 or 6 valleys and 7 hours west of the Bull River country.

I'm sorry to read about your misfortunes hunting here sir and honestly that's one of the primary reasons I began the thread at the top of this section "Planning a Hunt in Canada" - that is to say to attempt to prevent fiascoes such as you described from taking place.

One of the initial things I find both vexing and puzzling in your story is that you did check out the references beforehand.

Accounts such as you've related double and triple underline why I admonish perspective hunters to check with both successful and unsuccessful clients before booking. Listening carefully to what people DO NOT say is often more telling than what they will.

While it may not bear much fruit at this juncture for you, I'd certainly at very least contact the Guide Outfitters Association of BC to lodge a complaint and I'd send a CC to the outfitter and the Better Business Bureau of BC too.

http://www.bbb.org/mbc

As my cyber friend SNAP said so well, it's a black eye for us residents that these goat roping rodeos are allowed to take place. We're working on changing that - but it's a slow process as you can imagine.

Anyway sir, again welcome to the 'Fire and I'm sorry to meet under these circumstances.

Dwayne

SNAP;
Top of the morning to you sir, I see we're both up before the chickens this morning.

As you noted and I mentioned to our unfortunate newcomer from down under, the current folks in Victoria will likely be less than useful in doing anything - but perhaps the GOABC might give more of a care?

I'm not really close to anyone who is active in that association, but do know a couple folks who guide occasionally.

While I don't know what this past season was like in the Kootenays and honestly have never hunted the Bull area - it was really, REALLY slow here in our part of the Okanagan. Weirdly out of sync with everything we're used to anyway.

Hopefully you folks are doing OK sir and all the best to you this weekend.

Dwayne

Wow! Sounds like one arrived when the sh-t was hitting the fan around there. Can't offer one any advice, but reviews are always welcome here.

Sorry for the screwed up hunt. It is happening too often.

I hear that BC moose hunts are notoriously like this and have been for years now. An outfitter will know how many shootable mature moose his area has, then overbook it drastically. He'll get a certain percentage of hunters on moose, while the lottery-losers get skunked...on purpose.

After all, he needs animals for next year.

I wonder if the first-timers every get a chance at one of the available moose.

Thanks for you kind words guys Akbob5 I can understand your opinion I do post on several other forums but un till now never on 24hr I've decided to let people know what happened as if I had found a report like this online (which I did try to find) I would not have dealt with either operation I think a lot of people keep experiences like this quiet allowing people like this to continue operating I would rather it be public knowledge to prevent someone else going through the same thing.

Regards Matt

Matt,

Truly sorry you had such a terrible experience and do appreciate you sharing the bad news/review.

Hope you hang around, lots of good folks here...even if some seem a bit grouchy.

Bob

You hear? I suppose some may be. I've been there and hunted moose. Have hunted with at least three GOs that offer moose that have very high success rates. I've never heard of anyone being cheated out of a moose. Sheep in the north country maybe, but not moose. I'm sure it happens, but seriously doubt BC is becoming notorious for it.

The overbooking IS very commonplace NOW, but, mostly with the GOs that are foreign owned and operated for short term profits.

We are now at the nadir of BC hunting and the majority of BC people are FINALLY awakening to what is happening. It will take perhaps five years, but, a huge change is coming and the GOs will lose most of the allocations and political clout they now have.

That said, I hope that fellow members of the Commonwealth, will always be welcomed to hunt, etc., here in BC.

With good management, BC could accept twice the foreign hunters and many more residents, but, the various politicians just do not seem to care....easier, to buy votes from ethnic blocs, sound familiar?

I feel very bad that you had to experience such an awful hunt. I look forward to the day when crooked guides and outfitters are held accountable in this province. The time is coming soon.........

The really sad thing about this is that it is a reflection of the state of the game populations due to poor management in the area. In addition, poor stewardship by timber and mining interests has resulted in excessive road building and access into what used to be remote areas. The intrusion of motorized vehicles (ATV's)into remote locations is an issue which should have been addressed twenty years ago.
I am fairly familiar with some of the outfitter's areas on the upper Flathead and have some sympathy for these outfitters. Their areas have been severely compromised by road-building, high altitude timber harvest, and illegal use of ATV's in their areas. In addition, the Ministry of the Environment gives out limited entry tags which may exceed the number of animals available for harvest. The result is that the available game is limited and pressure is excessive. In many areas, it has reached the point where outfitters should be offering eco tours instead of hunts with hunting restricted to re-build game populations.
I truly enjoy spending time hunting and camping along the divide but the experience is tainted by the misuse of the area by all parties involved. GD

greydog,

Now that puts the cause of the problems in perspective and provides a realistic and healthy solution.

Along with the thieving outfitters who should be nailed to a tree for the winter.

Thanks for your post.

Steve