Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Would switching my brand/type of dies help me?

I've used RCBS for about 20 years. A few years ago I started also using Lee collet neck-sizers. I use Lapua brass. Every fourth firing I anneal, bump the shoulder,trim, and clean out primer pockets. I toss them at 12. (I also have a flash hole de-burrer, a Sinclair neck-sorting took, and I used to sort my brass by weight. I stopped doing those steps when I switched to Lapua.)

With my FTR rifle (308) with a Kreiger (600 rounds on it) and the Bartlein before it, I'm usually in the .5s for a five round group. Yes, lots of occasional groups down into the .3s, but my average is in the .5s. (This is at 100 at the bench when testing scopes,etc.)

I thought it was me and my ability/set-up. I've always shot from a Harris bipod. But this year I bought a front rest. My rifle tracks straight, but my groups didn't improve.

I read that the Hornady dies make super concentric ammo. So I bought a set for a Creedmoor Predator. Since I don't have a concentricity gauge to check run-out, I don't know how it compares.

Do you guys with experience think switching to Hornady dies would shrink my groups, or am I better off buying a gauge/straightener, or would the best option just be to save for the Redding Type S FL die and Competition seater? (No experience with these myself, but that seems to be what a lot of good shooters use.

I've tried to keep my reloading simple and affordable regarding tools, but I'd like to tight my groups up. Is switching dies tne next step?

You next step is getting a concentricity checker to see what you are actually producing now. I use Lee collet dies and Redding body dies to load very straight cartridges.

I like the Sinclair, but there are other good ones out there. I do prefer single use tools, rather than the RCBS version. I also prefer tools that use a V-block style set-up, rather than fixtures that hold the end of the bullet.

BTW, what chamber are you using for your 308 match rifle?

Lee Collets are silly good for producing concentric ammo. Pretty easy to get 0.001" with Lapua hulls.

I forgot to ask what seater do you use now?

I have used hornady new dimension dies for several calibers including the 6.5 creedmoor. They produce pretty straight ammo but the sizer takes the brass down way too far before pulling the button back through.

I asked Hornady about honing the die and they said they would not hone it. So I bought a redding type S FL bushing die. Recently Lee released a collet die for the creedmoor. You can get that direct from Lee or get the set from your favorite retailer.

I use my rifles for hunting so I like to FL size or body size bumping the shoulder .0015 every time. I have been playing around with the redding FL die without the bushing for a shoulder bump then running through the lee for neck sizing. This has been working but not really any better than the redding by itself.

Like Mathman is implying the seater has alot to do with runout. The hornady seater is good but a forster or redding are better as they are cartridge specific unlike the hornady which is caliber specific.

Having said all that I have found anything under .006 runout will shoot under .75 moa out of my rifles. I use anything over .005 as foulers but don't end up with too many of those.

A forster fl die honed to match your brass neck thickness and benchrest seater is the best combo I have found for low runout and accurate ammo. I had a set for my .260 that was honed for lapua brass to apply .002 neck tension. I will be getting a set for my creedmoor when they become available.

Yes on the Sinclair. RCBS competition seater is 2 steps on the right direction, but one step back. Better? Yes. Best? No.

As usual, math always wins.

I'm using the RCBS seater that comes in the standard set. (Not even the comp. one, the regular one.)

My rifle has the 95 Palma chamber.

The last about 2K rounds were the 155 Scenars. I've shot about 150 of the 155 Nosler CC and liked them enough I just bought 1000.The group size I referred to above is with both bullets.

Should I just get a Sinclair concentricity gauge, or for the money would you guys recommend just buying the Redding dies? I mean, would the gauge be unnecessary with the better dies?

Come to think of it, the only other dies I've bought besides RCBS and the Hornady mentioned earlier were some regular Redding for a 7 Rem Mag. It was a T3 Lite and it was the most accurate factory rifle I've ever had. Maybe it was the dies? (I sold it. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get my ES into the teens. My buddy wanted it so I sold it and bought another t3 in 7-08.)

Thanks for the replies. Let me read back through these and see if I missed anything.

Mathman, which Redding body die? The regular?

I agree with mathman. Get a concentricity gauge first. Then check runout on your case necks to ensure your sizing die and process is working properly. Once you know the neck concentricity is good, start checking concentricity of bullets in assembled rounds to check your seating die and process.

My preferred die set is a Lee Collet Die and a Forster seating die. I also like the Redding body die when the shoulder needs to be pushed back, but nothing wrong with just buying a Forster two die set and using the full length die to move the shoulder either.

Yeah, the gauge makes sense. Then I can check other cartridges, too.
Now I know what I'm getting for my birthday next month.

Unless you get the Forster honed out it will be sizing the neck down a good bit more than necessary for Lapua brass in a 308.

Yes, get the gauge. You already have the Lee collet die, so don't jump to a bushing die yet. Upgrade your seater die to a Forster or Redding competition type. The regular Redding body die should work fine.

You can check concentricity, but the next step may be turning the necks.

Brass flows up when you resize the body, that's why you have to trim, and the necks get thicker.

With a thinner neck, the case tight in the chamber and the bullet set to kiss the lands, the bullet finds it's own center.

I don't like too thin necks, although that helps accuracy so I don't cut much, just to take off the high side.

I would just use the Lee collet die as long as it works.

Also, a few questions... why bump the shoulder after 4 rounds unless needed, and if you are annealing, as long as the primer pockets are tight why toss the brass after 12?

That's your choice in the matter, but if you're consistently shooting .5 groups now you're pretty much on the right track with what you are doing now.

Sub moa is good enough to win FT-R if you are good at calling wind.

Topcat,

I bump the shoulder because I start to feel some resistance closing the bolt after neck-sizing only a few times. All of my bolt rifles do this and I just thought it was normal.

I've heard of guys who reload their brass 30 times. One reason I trash mine after 12 times is because someone told me brass gets "tired". (I should have asked how many times he uses his.) At 12, it was time to anneal again, and I guessed that I'd need to get neck turning tools if I kept them much longer.

In my effort to keep things simple (and affordable) I've never done neck turning. Is that something most of you do?

I know it depends on several factors, but may I ask how long you keep your brass? (I'm 45.7 Varget at 2950 and a 30" barrel.)

I know sub-moa shooters can win FT-R, but my groups I'm talking about are from the bench when testing the powder lots, primers, scopes, rests vs bipods, et cetera. Trust me, I'm not a half moa shooter during matches!

I just stopped by Sportsmans's in Missoula after the Cost Co run. They actually had a Redding Comp seater in 308 ($109) on the shelf. Since I need to do a Sinclair order I'll just wait and do it then, but I was surprised to see it there. (No 8208, or 162 A-Max, or 68 hpbt....)

I felt good with my loads until I shot my first benchrest match four months ago. I know my rifle isn't a benchrest rifle and it's not in 30 BR (or 6BR et al) and I haven't spent hundreds and hundreds on reloading equipment and don't have a $600 rest and a $100 bag and on and on. I knew it would be a learning experience and just for fun.

But I got stomped on. Some of those guys are shooting in the 2s. I don't want to get into benchrest, it was just an eye-opener for me and I thought if a simple change of die brand would help shrink my groups, I'd give it a try.

Agreed, but it shouldn't affect concentricity.

[quote=mathman]You next step is getting a concentricity checker to see what you are actually producing now. I use Lee collet dies and Redding body dies to load very straight cartridges.

This.....I like to use the Redding bushing body die with the bushing left out for full length sizing as this doesn't touch the neck with the bushing out.

I then use the Lee Collet neck sizing die.

This method has given me the best groups.

Shod

IDMilton,

You will get lots of answers here about the "best" dies to use. The truth is that lots of dies will get you where you want to go. As an example, my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle will average in the high "teens" with the right load (that's 5 shots at 100 yards) despite some use on the barrel. I don't use it for benchrest matches, but for testing various aspects of accuracy--and occasional prairie dog shooting.

Serious benchrest competitors don't even use a conventional press, instead using very precise "hand" dies and an arbor press. But this is a slow way to load. For putting together prairie dog rounds I use Redding Competition dies in a Redding T-7 turret press, to load the ammo reasonably quickly in quantity. The MOST bullet run-out I've measured in my loaded ammo, even with this set-up considered imprecise by most benchresters, is .0005". That's one-half of one thousandth of an inch, with essentially mass-produced handloads. But I am doing more than just using good dies, like neck-turning.

You will have to incorporate other stuff than a mere change in dies for real improvements in your loads, and as some other people have suggested a concentricity gauge is the very first purchase you need to make.

So it may be time to retire the Partner press I bought from Cal Ranch while I was in college:(

So my first purchase is the Sinclair concentricity gauge.

Then a Redding Master Hunter die set. (FL body and comp seater for best price.) With this I take out the expander and just use it to bump the shoulder and then use the Lee for the neck.

Then the Sinclair neck turner kit.

If that is the right order, I'll get started and report back.

However, there may be a month or two between purchases, so the report may be slow in coming! (I just put together a tool wish list for the 308, 7-08, and 223. I'm at $690 plus shipping. I think I should eat that list so my wife doesn't find it.)

Thanks for the replies. I read the reloading stickies at the top of this section, and I Googled some sites about precision reloading. There is so much information out there, and I don't know what is necessary and what is just someone with lots of time of cash. I found these responses very helpful.

That's not going to work. The Redding FL die in that set is going to size the neck way down, far more than necessary with Lapua cases.

You already have the Lee collet die for the necks. This is what you need to body size and bump shoulders without screwing up the necks:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/620746/redding-body-die-308-winchester

This is an excellent seating die with micrometer type adjustment for about thirty bucks less than a Redding:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/39...-die-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding


This is an excellent seater for hald the Redding price if the micrometer adjustment isn't dritical, but straight bullet seating still is:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/202919/forster-bench-rest-seater-die-308-winchester

21st Century has a nice neck turning kit.

I'm glad you posted those links. You just saved me $50 on each set. ($150 between the 308, the 7-08, and the 223 I plan on switching out.) Thanks!

The middle link is the same as the first link. Which seating die were you mentioning? (Although I'll most likely just stick with the one without the micrometer because I'll just set it for the one bullet.)

Guys, I'm still not understanding why I should get the concentricity gauge if I'm getting the better dies. If MD is getting .0005 runout, it sounds like any potentially crooked ammo problems would be fixed with just getting the two dies in Mathman's link and saving the $87 and shipping for the gauge. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand what I'm missing.

Two more questions:
MD said neck turning. Is this something I need to do? It sounds like it is.

With the annealing, and assuming neck turning, how long before you consider your Lapua brass "tired" and toss it?


Thanks again. I don't think I can wait till next month and I will probable order either the gauge or the dies Monday.