Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Would switching my brand/type of dies help me?

I've used RCBS for about 20 years. A few years ago I started also using Lee collet neck-sizers. I use Lapua brass. Every fourth firing I anneal, bump the shoulder,trim, and clean out primer pockets. I toss them at 12. (I also have a flash hole de-burrer, a Sinclair neck-sorting took, and I used to sort my brass by weight. I stopped doing those steps when I switched to Lapua.)

With my FTR rifle (308) with a Kreiger (600 rounds on it) and the Bartlein before it, I'm usually in the .5s for a five round group. Yes, lots of occasional groups down into the .3s, but my average is in the .5s. (This is at 100 at the bench when testing scopes,etc.)

I thought it was me and my ability/set-up. I've always shot from a Harris bipod. But this year I bought a front rest. My rifle tracks straight, but my groups didn't improve.

I read that the Hornady dies make super concentric ammo. So I bought a set for a Creedmoor Predator. Since I don't have a concentricity gauge to check run-out, I don't know how it compares.

Do you guys with experience think switching to Hornady dies would shrink my groups, or am I better off buying a gauge/straightener, or would the best option just be to save for the Redding Type S FL die and Competition seater? (No experience with these myself, but that seems to be what a lot of good shooters use.

I've tried to keep my reloading simple and affordable regarding tools, but I'd like to tight my groups up. Is switching dies tne next step?

You next step is getting a concentricity checker to see what you are actually producing now. I use Lee collet dies and Redding body dies to load very straight cartridges.

I like the Sinclair, but there are other good ones out there. I do prefer single use tools, rather than the RCBS version. I also prefer tools that use a V-block style set-up, rather than fixtures that hold the end of the bullet.

BTW, what chamber are you using for your 308 match rifle?

Lee Collets are silly good for producing concentric ammo. Pretty easy to get 0.001" with Lapua hulls.

I forgot to ask what seater do you use now?

I have used hornady new dimension dies for several calibers including the 6.5 creedmoor. They produce pretty straight ammo but the sizer takes the brass down way too far before pulling the button back through.

I asked Hornady about honing the die and they said they would not hone it. So I bought a redding type S FL bushing die. Recently Lee released a collet die for the creedmoor. You can get that direct from Lee or get the set from your favorite retailer.

I use my rifles for hunting so I like to FL size or body size bumping the shoulder .0015 every time. I have been playing around with the redding FL die without the bushing for a shoulder bump then running through the lee for neck sizing. This has been working but not really any better than the redding by itself.

Like Mathman is implying the seater has alot to do with runout. The hornady seater is good but a forster or redding are better as they are cartridge specific unlike the hornady which is caliber specific.

Having said all that I have found anything under .006 runout will shoot under .75 moa out of my rifles. I use anything over .005 as foulers but don't end up with too many of those.

A forster fl die honed to match your brass neck thickness and benchrest seater is the best combo I have found for low runout and accurate ammo. I had a set for my .260 that was honed for lapua brass to apply .002 neck tension. I will be getting a set for my creedmoor when they become available.

Yes on the Sinclair. RCBS competition seater is 2 steps on the right direction, but one step back. Better? Yes. Best? No.

As usual, math always wins.

I'm using the RCBS seater that comes in the standard set. (Not even the comp. one, the regular one.)

My rifle has the 95 Palma chamber.

The last about 2K rounds were the 155 Scenars. I've shot about 150 of the 155 Nosler CC and liked them enough I just bought 1000.The group size I referred to above is with both bullets.

Should I just get a Sinclair concentricity gauge, or for the money would you guys recommend just buying the Redding dies? I mean, would the gauge be unnecessary with the better dies?

Come to think of it, the only other dies I've bought besides RCBS and the Hornady mentioned earlier were some regular Redding for a 7 Rem Mag. It was a T3 Lite and it was the most accurate factory rifle I've ever had. Maybe it was the dies? (I sold it. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get my ES into the teens. My buddy wanted it so I sold it and bought another t3 in 7-08.)

Thanks for the replies. Let me read back through these and see if I missed anything.

Mathman, which Redding body die? The regular?

I agree with mathman. Get a concentricity gauge first. Then check runout on your case necks to ensure your sizing die and process is working properly. Once you know the neck concentricity is good, start checking concentricity of bullets in assembled rounds to check your seating die and process.

My preferred die set is a Lee Collet Die and a Forster seating die. I also like the Redding body die when the shoulder needs to be pushed back, but nothing wrong with just buying a Forster two die set and using the full length die to move the shoulder either.

Yeah, the gauge makes sense. Then I can check other cartridges, too.
Now I know what I'm getting for my birthday next month.

Unless you get the Forster honed out it will be sizing the neck down a good bit more than necessary for Lapua brass in a 308.

Yes, get the gauge. You already have the Lee collet die, so don't jump to a bushing die yet. Upgrade your seater die to a Forster or Redding competition type. The regular Redding body die should work fine.

You can check concentricity, but the next step may be turning the necks.

Brass flows up when you resize the body, that's why you have to trim, and the necks get thicker.

With a thinner neck, the case tight in the chamber and the bullet set to kiss the lands, the bullet finds it's own center.

I don't like too thin necks, although that helps accuracy so I don't cut much, just to take off the high side.

I would just use the Lee collet die as long as it works.

Also, a few questions... why bump the shoulder after 4 rounds unless needed, and if you are annealing, as long as the primer pockets are tight why toss the brass after 12?

That's your choice in the matter, but if you're consistently shooting .5 groups now you're pretty much on the right track with what you are doing now.

Sub moa is good enough to win FT-R if you are good at calling wind.

Topcat,

I bump the shoulder because I start to feel some resistance closing the bolt after neck-sizing only a few times. All of my bolt rifles do this and I just thought it was normal.

I've heard of guys who reload their brass 30 times. One reason I trash mine after 12 times is because someone told me brass gets "tired". (I should have asked how many times he uses his.) At 12, it was time to anneal again, and I guessed that I'd need to get neck turning tools if I kept them much longer.

In my effort to keep things simple (and affordable) I've never done neck turning. Is that something most of you do?

I know it depends on several factors, but may I ask how long you keep your brass? (I'm 45.7 Varget at 2950 and a 30" barrel.)

I know sub-moa shooters can win FT-R, but my groups I'm talking about are from the bench when testing the powder lots, primers, scopes, rests vs bipods, et cetera. Trust me, I'm not a half moa shooter during matches!

I just stopped by Sportsmans's in Missoula after the Cost Co run. They actually had a Redding Comp seater in 308 ($109) on the shelf. Since I need to do a Sinclair order I'll just wait and do it then, but I was surprised to see it there. (No 8208, or 162 A-Max, or 68 hpbt....)

I felt good with my loads until I shot my first benchrest match four months ago. I know my rifle isn't a benchrest rifle and it's not in 30 BR (or 6BR et al) and I haven't spent hundreds and hundreds on reloading equipment and don't have a $600 rest and a $100 bag and on and on. I knew it would be a learning experience and just for fun.

But I got stomped on. Some of those guys are shooting in the 2s. I don't want to get into benchrest, it was just an eye-opener for me and I thought if a simple change of die brand would help shrink my groups, I'd give it a try.

Agreed, but it shouldn't affect concentricity.

[quote=mathman]You next step is getting a concentricity checker to see what you are actually producing now. I use Lee collet dies and Redding body dies to load very straight cartridges.

This.....I like to use the Redding bushing body die with the bushing left out for full length sizing as this doesn't touch the neck with the bushing out.

I then use the Lee Collet neck sizing die.

This method has given me the best groups.

Shod

IDMilton,

You will get lots of answers here about the "best" dies to use. The truth is that lots of dies will get you where you want to go. As an example, my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle will average in the high "teens" with the right load (that's 5 shots at 100 yards) despite some use on the barrel. I don't use it for benchrest matches, but for testing various aspects of accuracy--and occasional prairie dog shooting.

Serious benchrest competitors don't even use a conventional press, instead using very precise "hand" dies and an arbor press. But this is a slow way to load. For putting together prairie dog rounds I use Redding Competition dies in a Redding T-7 turret press, to load the ammo reasonably quickly in quantity. The MOST bullet run-out I've measured in my loaded ammo, even with this set-up considered imprecise by most benchresters, is .0005". That's one-half of one thousandth of an inch, with essentially mass-produced handloads. But I am doing more than just using good dies, like neck-turning.

You will have to incorporate other stuff than a mere change in dies for real improvements in your loads, and as some other people have suggested a concentricity gauge is the very first purchase you need to make.

So it may be time to retire the Partner press I bought from Cal Ranch while I was in college:(

So my first purchase is the Sinclair concentricity gauge.

Then a Redding Master Hunter die set. (FL body and comp seater for best price.) With this I take out the expander and just use it to bump the shoulder and then use the Lee for the neck.

Then the Sinclair neck turner kit.

If that is the right order, I'll get started and report back.

However, there may be a month or two between purchases, so the report may be slow in coming! (I just put together a tool wish list for the 308, 7-08, and 223. I'm at $690 plus shipping. I think I should eat that list so my wife doesn't find it.)

Thanks for the replies. I read the reloading stickies at the top of this section, and I Googled some sites about precision reloading. There is so much information out there, and I don't know what is necessary and what is just someone with lots of time of cash. I found these responses very helpful.

That's not going to work. The Redding FL die in that set is going to size the neck way down, far more than necessary with Lapua cases.

You already have the Lee collet die for the necks. This is what you need to body size and bump shoulders without screwing up the necks:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/620746/redding-body-die-308-winchester

This is an excellent seating die with micrometer type adjustment for about thirty bucks less than a Redding:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/39...-die-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding


This is an excellent seater for hald the Redding price if the micrometer adjustment isn't dritical, but straight bullet seating still is:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/202919/forster-bench-rest-seater-die-308-winchester

21st Century has a nice neck turning kit.

I'm glad you posted those links. You just saved me $50 on each set. ($150 between the 308, the 7-08, and the 223 I plan on switching out.) Thanks!

The middle link is the same as the first link. Which seating die were you mentioning? (Although I'll most likely just stick with the one without the micrometer because I'll just set it for the one bullet.)

Guys, I'm still not understanding why I should get the concentricity gauge if I'm getting the better dies. If MD is getting .0005 runout, it sounds like any potentially crooked ammo problems would be fixed with just getting the two dies in Mathman's link and saving the $87 and shipping for the gauge. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand what I'm missing.

Two more questions:
MD said neck turning. Is this something I need to do? It sounds like it is.

With the annealing, and assuming neck turning, how long before you consider your Lapua brass "tired" and toss it?


Thanks again. I don't think I can wait till next month and I will probable order either the gauge or the dies Monday.

I think I have got the link fixed.

You should get the concentricity checker to know what you're producing.

You need the concentricity gauge because you never know what the actual results are from certain dies without checking.

Plus, it will save you money in the long run, because some cheap dies can be easily adjusted and modified to make really straight ammo--but you need the gauge to find out what works.

I ordered my gauge today. I'm sure I'll be amazed at how crooked my stuff is.

What brand of concetricity gauge you consider good quality?

Bearcat74...what brand did you order?

I have always told myself that I need to get one of these to check my rounds and since I am going to place an order I might as well throw this in my order.

I figure I drag assed around enough so I went ahead and got one. Making crooked ammo is not a reason I got into reloading.


I got the Sinclair with dial indicator: http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...-indicator-sku749007305-37479-70547.aspx

I wish I'd gotten mine sooner.

Wouldn't mind hearing others tricks on getting basic die sets square. My only two are a piece of flat stock on the ram against the seater die before snugging the lock ring and the 7/8" O-ring on the sizer to make setting headspace easier.

Been trying to see if thread tape on the die bodies helps to keep things straight, but second attempt wasnt as fruitful as my first.

For the guys that have the concentricity gauges how much difference have you seen pre-gauge vs post gauge?


Also, were you making mostly straight ammo to begin with?

I'll order the gauge Monday. (The same one Bearcat74 ordered.)

I'll post what I find when it shows up.

I have the RCBS Case Master and honestly I think this stuff is hard to get repeatable data. For example I went down and measured runout on new 223Rem brass. Three of the brass had like .005ish run out and one had .004. Is this typical of new brass? Instructions say to resize and see if this helps. But when you shoot the ammunition and resize it seems possible to introduce all kinds of runout. I am not a benchrest shooter but like my ammo to be less than 1" for BG hunting rifles but for varmint rifles I like a bit less. I think you can obtain these accuracy by the components used. So should I try resizing one of my brass and see if this lessen the run out?

I think someone a while ago mention that RCBS Case Master is the worse of all concentriity gauge. Is this the general consensus?

I have a loaded round and I will try to measure bullet run out but I think the first thing is to probably get the smallest run out on a new brass and then load and see what bullet run out I get.

Bearcat,

How can you tell pre-gauge and post gauge? IMO if you are shooting acceptable groups to you, then how much of this gauge-testing comes into the picture. I mean I like to load and shoot and shooting with known good ammo with a particular rifle "tends" to product good groups with the same components. Its when nothing is working that maybe this gauge you get may tell you where to look into a problem. This is my way of thinking but I am not the know all in reloading.

Well, I really don't know. I'm still reading up/into concentricity honestly. I see the tips in die straightening and I was curious if anyone had measured their stuff, used the tips to straighten things out, remeasured and shot groups with each. One reason I wanted to try one is for consistency. I know everyone has their off days but how a load can go under 1/2" and then in the same brass on a day that I am shooting good be over 1" is beyond me. Maybe it's just gremlins in the barrel?

Measure once fired cases, then sized cases, then bullets on loaded rounds.

You'll see.

Yes, it is. You're going to shoot for .003 or less with 223 brass



I have the "old style" v-block Sinclair concentricity gauge, the current Sinclair gauge, and a Case Master. They're all good.

And I have tried the same peice of brass, using the same dial indicator, with all three gauges with pretty consistent readings.

Buy the one you like.

Casey

no..it wasnt uncommon to see .009 or more at random. my goal for most loads now is .003 or less. with conventional dies,sizing UP over the expander instead of pulling it down over it will yield the biggest improvent.

I received my gauge today, talk about an eye opener.

Interesting, eh?

Well, as I posted earlier about the .223 and the 75gr BTHP beating up on me I ran some loaded rounds over the gauge. I would think that since I have runout from .005 - .013 with most being .009 and up that would be a contributing factor. I used the flat steel to square some stuff up trick and I had runout from .002 to .004 after that.

I checked the ammo for my rifles that always seen to shoot great, runout was under .005 the 2 rifles that I have been fighting for 2 weeks now had runout on probably 95% of the loaded ammo over .008 and up to .014"


So yeah, you could say interesting.

If you are just thrwing out your brass without it having signs of excessive wear, I'd be happy to pay postage to get your next boxful shipped to me!

My curiousity is if run out is the reason for "2 in/1out" groups. Lets say zero run out equals bughole groups. I measured 18 rounds of ammo I loaded half assed and about 50% were ~.005. A handful were under .002 and slightly more were over.007. If I were to randomly shoot 3 shot groups I'd have a 3% chance of getting the best 3 in one string, and a 60% chance of a combination of the others (which would end up as 2 together, 1 out) and a 25% chance at hitting the median, essentially a larger but equal "group"

.........aaaand I've gone cross-eyed. This is mathman's territory.

Runout is not the cause of consistent 2 in 1 out grouping.

Yes, I know....you already new that.

Shod

I believe Mule Deer explained it very well from a practical standpoint.

If one is loading for a factory barreled rifle .005 run out will net all of the accuracy the rifle is capable of. Any dies made are capable of producing ammo with .005.

Its more a matter of learning to use the dies properly and a runout gauge will tell you when your getting it right.

I have noted that some dies are a lot easier to learn to use and get results.

I'm not a fan of expander balls unless the die is a bushing die or a die that is modified to not overwork the neck. Overworking the neck in my opinion is one of the biggest contributors to ammo with excessive runout.

Shod

A while back a friend of mine came into a good number of ammo cans full of Lake City 7.62 M852 and M118 Match ammunition. This was quite a windfall since we both liked to shoot out 308's a bunch.

In several of our rifles the grouping with the M118 ammunition showed flashes of brilliance, but overall the grouping was not that great and there were flyers we couldn't explain.

I grouped the ammo by the lots indicated on the boxes, and then I opened the packages and sorted the cartridges by runout. The results were an eye opener, a large percentage had runout from .006" to .010" which is not good for precision work.

To test the effect, I made up some batches with differing amounts of runout. I marked them in a way so I knew what each batch was, but no one else did. I got my friend to shoot them from an accurate rifle, but I did not tell him what he was testing. My instructions were to hold as consistently as possible.

What happened was the bad runout cartridges shot elliptical groups, and they had nearly empty centers. Here's where I get to your two in, one out point. In an elliptical group of seven shots or more it's pretty easy for two holes to be close together, say at 8 o'clock on the ellipse. Now pick a lone hole near the 12 to 3 o'clock side. Suppose those were the only three shots fired. Voila! A two in, one out group.

I yet to see a viable answer, that's for sure. Theory as to why goes on forever. Bedding vs COAL, yada yada. I've even sworn by the COAL theorem myself.

Mix and match any three and you can think a lot of things.



Straight ammo certainly fixes the odds of hitting schit.

I have the RCBS guage, and after checking a good bit of previously loaded ammo, I got the TruAngle Cartridge Run-out Correction Tool on MD's recommendation. Now, if I have something out of alignment, I can correct it.

I've just found I have an issue with a set of Redding dies. It kept making crooked ammo, so I took the depriming rod out and then measured some cases - looks like pulling the case back over the sizer button was really screwing up the straightness of the cases. I'll have to figure out if I can leave the sizer button out (I can deprime in other ways) and still seat the bullets, of try to straighten the deprime rod.

Yep. I took some of the low runout M118 Match cartridges and did the trick of seating the bullets slightly deeper to pop the asphalt sealant the military put in the case necks. That ammo shot some groups that were hard to beat with my best handloads.

When I talk to handloaders I meet at my range I'll hear about gnat's ass weighing of powder, charge increments of .2 grains, multiple seating depth tests, trying different primers, yadda yadda. But it's the rare bird that knows about runout in any depth.

I was typing while you were, I knew a math guy would have to had tested it out.

That makes sense to me. If its an eliptical pattern, then the triangle theory and 2/1 theory/COAL doesn't work because both are possible.

Get one of the tapered expander balls Redding offers for their dies, and expand the necks by pushing them over the ball in a separate step.

Or get a Lyman M-die or other separate mandrel type neck expander die.

The thing to do is increase sample size to get a handle on what you're really looking at.

My BR buddies don't fret it, but they are into arbor presses an all that crap.

I did that sorta thing with my 6x45, never once taking runout into consideration.

Old dogs still learn tricks.

Math - it already has a tapered expander ball, but the shaft seems to be slightly bent, thus making the case crooked. When I removed the expander ball, the cases come out nice and straight

What Mathman said....2 in 1 out caused from runout is a mathamatic possibilty give sample size is rather limited.

Increase the sample size and the rest of the story is told. Separate the runout into groups as mathman did will tell the story even more.

Shod

Kinda sorta.....

If the rod can be straightened, then certainly do so. Once that's done I still recommend pushing the necks over the tapered ball.

This target tells me the first 3 cold bore shots are in the pressure node for a nice triangle group.

Because pressure and velocity slightly increase when warmer the two consecutive targets tell me you are right at the top of a node cold bore hence the vertical stringing begins and then slightly increases on target 3 when temperature and pressure go just above the node causing vertical stringing.

Group 4 screams no AO on the scope increasing the chance of error as far as shooter form or weather such as wind or the Sun causing mirage or both. It has to be because target 1-3 say bedding is a non issue. 9 rounds fired is a respectable sample size with no obvious fliers yet an obvious stringing pattern.

I'd drop the load in .1 gr increments and see if group 2 and 3 lighten up on the vertical string.

Shod

I do not think it was all of my problem I do think it was some of my problem.

It doesn't help for sure, and its one less thing to blame!

Does the title of this thread show up the same for everyone as it does for me in the "last post" column?

I’m the OP. My Sinclair concentricity showed up this afternoon. I’ll list my results, but if you just want the summary, my RCBS FL dies seem fine. The Lee collet are better, and my problems seem to be from seating.

My Kreiger on the Rem and the Tikka both have the fired cases come out with right around .001, but my AR-15, which is really accurate, has the fired cases come out much larger. I wonder if my chamber has a problem? I’ll list those cases further down.


I tightened the little nut on the seating stem, but what’s the next step? The dies are clean on the inside, what else can I do to them? Should my next purchase be the Tru-angle tool to straighten the mistakes, or should I skip to a comp. bullet seater?


I started with the 308 I started the thread with. The cases I used with the three rifles had been checked through the neck sorting tool first.


The fired cases had .001 or really close to it.
I’ll list two numbers. The first number is the run out after FL sizing (bumping the shoulder .001), the second number is the same case, but with the measurement taken on the seated bullet.


My dial goes to .001, so when I list to the 4th place, I’m guessing from looking at the needle between the marks. I’m rounding to the half.


Case #1 .0025, .0035
#2 .0025, .009 (That one would probably ruin my group!)
#3 .003, .002
#4 .0025, .003
#5 .003, .0025
#6 .003, .004


The next set were with the Lee die, then the second number is the same case with a bullet seated and the reading taken on the bullet.
#1 .001, .001
#2 .001, .002
#3 .001, .002
#4 .001, .002
#5 .001, .003
#6 .001, .001
#7 .001, 0
#8 .001, .002
#9 .001, .004
#10 .001, .002


The next cases were from my AR-15 and Hornady 556 brass. The dies are regular RCBS dies. The first number is the fired case, then FL sized, then with a bullet. Rather than type it repeatedly, add a .00 in front of the listed number.
#1 3,2,3
#2 4,3,.0035
#3 3,2,.0035
#4 3,.0015, .0035
#5 .0025, 2, 6
#6 4,2,.0055
#7 5,2,4
#8 3,1,3
#9 2,.0015, 2
#10 3, .0015, 2
#11 5,2,3
#12 5,2,3
#13 5,1,5
#14 .0015, 2,4


Lastly, I did my Tikka 7-08 with its Rem brass.
First number is the fired case, then the same case FL, then the loaded round on the bullet.
#1 1,2,4
#2 2,2,5
#3 2,2, 5
#4 2,2, 4
#5 1,2,4


Next with a Lee collet die.
1,2,3
0,2,4
1,1,1
1,1,3
1,2,2

I’m typed out, but that was interesting to me. The gauge seems to be very repeatable, especially with using both index fingers, one to apply even pressure and one to roll the case.

Get a new rod assembly...or get a carbide expander assembly. The floating carbide expander WON'T fix anything really out of whack though!

Redding sells die parts, as do others, and Midway handles most of them.

Forster (sizing) dies that size down a thicker neck of some brass a bit can be corrected with different diameter expanders. It also does the opposite with "thinner" brass. They work, yet keep the necks in round, without resorting to several trips through the die.

Another thing that should be mentioned is how well the seating die stems mate up with the bullet ogive and at what point/bearing surface they contact. That can also create a runout issue, even with the alignment systems of great seating dies.

One last thing: find a system. Mathman and others here use certain "known" quantities. They use the same or similar make and quality of brass, bullets and dies so that using the runout gauge every time they reload is pretty much omitted.
But they didn't get there without a gauge of some sort and when problems show up at the range, the gauge is often drug out to sort things.
I rarely use a runout gauge anymore unless using WW or RP cases when sorting.

I had to straighten a few of my dies up and after pushing the brass over the expander vs pulling it over my stuff tightened up considerably. My .223 Rem dies I had up to .013" of runout all in the seating process prior to straightening them in the press.


Pretty much any runout I get is through the seating process. I will get several in a row of .001 - .003 and then I will have a .008" or greater and then right back to .001 - .003. I assume a comp seater would help here?


I shot yesterday with ammo sorted from .004 and down and .007 and greater, but it was a limited test as I was short on time and ammo. The ammo with less runout shot 1/2" to 3/4" less than ammo with greater runout from the rifles I used yesterday. The one that really struck me was the bad ammo shot .9" from my 700 ADL in .243, under 1" with crooked ammo. The good ammo I loaded for it had runout of .001, .001 and .003" and I only had the 3 rounds for it, they went .37". I probably 10-12 100yd groups under 1/2" with that rifle and it rarely ever goes over 1" but it has before.

My other .243 went from under 3/4" straight to 1.25" crooked and my .223 was under 3/4" almost 1/2" straight to over 1" crooked.

When I saw that it makes you wonder about those "flyers" where everything felt good when the trigger broke but the round still landed over there?

A quality comp seater is never a mistake, IMO, simply because it can reduce runout caused by human element, possible press or shellholder issues and align the bullet with the case. It may not reduce runout in cases with straight necks with careful loading and even neck walls so it will NOT fix any mis-alignment caused by uneven case neck walls, just slightly reduce it.

They are also more likely to use a seater stem for VLD, tipped and match bullet profiles with long noses, which if used with the wrong seater stem can create runout. Also they are more likely to reduce shaving and runout if you use cast or miss a chamfer.

If you have cases with uneven neck walls, there is no good fix and the only real fix is to neck turn the high spots. Uneven neck thickness is likely the cause of your issues (assuming all of these cases have been fired once).

I usually cull the cases; really, I just buy brass of known quality and try to avoid cases that are "seasonal run" only.

Lapua, Norma and Nosler cases in 243 or 223, a straight sizer and a decent seater die should eliminate any sorting and large variables.

Hornady and LEE seaters also work quite well on the cheap, just be deliberate when putting the case in the shellholder.

BINGO...

I have a very basic RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme set up and use a combination of RCBS, Lee and Redding dies. It does fine but I'm sure I missing opportunities to refine my loads for better accuracy due to my reloading abilities or lack thereof.

After playing with Lee collet neck sizing dies for a new 7mm-08, I'm thinking about doing some experimenting. I haven't decided yet but, I considering buying a small arbor press and use L. E. Wilson neck sizing and bullet seating dies. Most of my reloading is done for my various hunting rifles and would probably be just about as quick with better quality and a more concentric bullet seat.

By "hunting" rifle, I'd assume you mean factory rifle/chamber/barrel?

I wouldn't expect any dividends by going to the arbor system at all. You'd be miles ahead/better served by buying the best brass possible for your chamberings, a runout gauge and dies if warranted. If all is well, a LEE loader could be perfectly fine for a hunting rifle.

Arbor setups don't get attention from even the most sick accuracy freaks until a rifle system is built around them.