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If you're talking about the general firearms seasons, I don't think powder type should matter as long as ballistics are held within certain parameters in more populated zone 3. In the dedicated muzzleloader season, no way. I'd even go for further restrictions, and no, I'm not a strict "traditionalist". I have close to a dozen inlines, a couple smokeless and a few side hammers. There's a point where the ballistics and capabilities of "modern muzzleloaders" negate the reason a special muzzleloading season even exists.
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szihn
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Yep.
Personally, I judge distances real well. I hold-true to 150 yards or less and powder volumes to match it, during muzzleloader season. The same applies when I "once-in-a-while" bring my muzzleloader to the rifle zones for Michigan's Nov 15-30th rifle season/zone.
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NM used to allow smokeless, they did away with it a few years ago. If you want to shoot long range and smokeless, they call it Rifle season.
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[quote=srwshooter]with black powder/bp substitutes being a total explosive it should burn everything you put in it. Yes, and no. BP is an explosive, but it's blast characteristics are much different than smokeless powder, and thus the pressures generated are considerably different. take your ml and shorten the barrel 5-6in ,i bet it will shoot faster. only thing slowing the bullet down is friction,less time in the barrel,less friction. short barrel shoots faster. with smokelss it would lose speed. Really This has to be the dumbest advice I have ever heard concerning internal combustion properties for blackpowder or smokeless powder. You need to shut the fugg up,stop putting out bogus science about friction and go read up on barrel lengths and powder burn rates. Seeing the OP,s numbnut thread about "How I want to shoot smokeless powder in my new Remington 700 BP and BP substitute ML",is enough to drive anyone with common sense bonkers, the OP needs no help in injuring himself and is going to shoot smokeless powder in that gun come hell or high water no matter what anyone says to him about the danger of it. The guy would lose probably anywhere from 20-50 fps in velocity for every inch he lops off a barrel. And have unburned powder spewing out the barrel(probably half his charge)from lack of barrel length to burn the charge properly. This is the stupidest advice I have heard in ages. This poster must be one of those gunshop pro types. [/quote well,its very obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about.black powder is a explosive and does not burn at a so called burn rate like smokeless powder. you will gain speed with a ml barrel if you shorten it.i cut my tc triumph down to 20in long and gained speed. its been done,its a fact.i've seen it done with 2 tc ml'ers and a knight.oh,by the way,the guy that got me interested in cutting the barrel on my tc is a custom muzzleloader builder that shoots national events and was sponsored by knight for over 10yrs.i think he knows what hes doing.i watched him do his knight hunting ml and after seeing his results i did mine. the numbnut(op) is a good friend of mine and he is not planning on taking a rem ml out and shooting it with smokeless powder unless its been tried and tested to be safely done. he is only trying to see if anyone out there has done it yet.someone will do it very soon ,i'd bet on that.until you learn more and know what you are talking about stop the [bleep] name calling. Hatcher's Notebook, (by Julian S. Hatcher, 3rd edition, June 1962). This is a proven fact already well documented in the field of internal ballistics, but it does not always occur in high powered rifle cartridges, and I'm unsure if it would ever occur in the context of this discussion. The bullet is pushed down the barrel from pressure that peaks and is declining within milliseconds. Pressure behind the bullet begins to decrease, and if the barrel is long enough, at some point, the friction of the bullet against the bore, combined with the air pressure in front of the bullet within the bore, will equal the decreased pressure behind the bullet. At that point, the bullet cannot go any faster, and the friction of the remaining barrel length will slow the bullet prior to exiting the muzzle. High powered rifle cartridges may never reach this point within standard barrel lengths. But, a 22 rimfire, as example, will reach this point of equal pressure at approximately 14" to 16" down the bore. Beyond that point, friction from the barrel can slow it down. In terms of explosive black powder and patched round balls, I do believe someone like Dixie Gunworks, tested a mid-bore muzzeloader for this effect. I recall they used a 40 or 45 caliber, with something like 40 or 45 grains of powder. Do not recall the starting length, but it was fairly long. They tested for velocity, cut the barrel down, tested, and kept shortening the barrel and testing. In that test, the barrel always lost velocity when cut shorter. Even with the longest barrel, the effect of equal pressure was never reached. So in terms of 100 to 150 grain volume charges of Blackhorn behind a 50cal sabot/bullet, I'd have no clue as to how long a barrel would need to be for the sabot/bullet to reach that point of equal pressure. It could be 28 inches or it could be five feet, I don't know. Best 
Last edited by GaryVA; 02/22/15.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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I checked, it was Dixie Gun Works. 40 caliber, patched round ball, 47 grains FFFg black powder. Started with 40-inch barrel, and kept chopping it down until it was 20-inches. Fastest velocity was the longest length. Lost velocity each time it was cut. So the barrel was not long enough at 40-inches to reach that point of equal pressure for friction to take over and slow down the patched ball.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Campfire Outfitter
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I checked, it was Dixie Gun Works. 40 caliber, patched round ball, 47 grains FFFg black powder. Started with 40-inch barrel, and kept chopping it down until it was 20-inches. Fastest velocity was the longest length. Lost velocity each time it was cut. So the barrel was not long enough at 40-inches to reach that point of equal pressure for friction to take over and slow down the patched ball. been tested here with a chrony,they are wrong. we've done it with a tc triumph,tc omega and a knight. they all gained fps.simple test .i just bought a 45 caliber cva inline that i may shorten today. we have gotten better accuratcy out of all of them with 20-21" barrels. doing away with QLA on a tc gun may be why mine is more accurate.
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I posted above to support that such a velocity loss from barrel friction can exist, as it was long ago proven and is well documented in numerous peer reviewed publications. The Testing Dixie conducted was well documented using a scientific method with a repeatable outcome. They were not wrong, they published an article and those results were established. It is not only Hatcher, Dixie, and a score of other ballisticians confirming such findings, but even Thompson Center Arms used Ed Yard, a well-known ballistics engineer, to conduct accurate pressure and velocity testing in rifle barrels for their company. His extensive testing for T/C resulted in these findings: "Velocity gain per inch of barrel beyond 28 inches is approximately 8 fps per inch, declining gradually until at about 42 inches there is no velocity gain from increased barrel length. Velocity may be expected to drop as bore friction negates the velocity gains of an increased charge." I cannot find any reference for yours, or any other peer reviewed testing that negates the published findings from the previous decades to support that a projectile fired from a modern muzzleloader will reach maximum velocity within 20 inches, and that any barrel length beyond that point will reduce velocity via bore friction. Some reference material supporting your claim would be interesting to review. Best
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Remember gunshop pro/tackleberry types know it all and stammer and waffle when asked to show some research to back up their proclamations of great knowledge and experience. He probably has a .270 also.
Working for dad in office supply
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like i said we've done it 3 times already,it works. i could care less what anyone else say when 2 different chonographs show otherwise.you guys are talking about stuff that you were told or read. i'm talking about being there and seeing it with my oewn eyes.
crasher,your smartass remarks above were uncalled for and anything you post after means nothing to me.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Show us some proof then while you are scrambling to find some. I got some extra lead that you and your gunshop pro buds can turn into gold and then you can tell us all about it,cause you seen it with your own eyes 3 times.
Working for dad in office supply
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just shortened another today. 45cal is shooting great.
is the wind blowing ,again?
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This thread has turned stupid. I'm just here for the name calling so please continue on. Where's the popcorn!!! 
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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OP
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I got my new Remington 700 ultimate. Waiting for snow to melt and gonna take it out and play with it. You measure smokeless powder in a regular old black powder measure right? I have a old powder horn I was going to carry full of smokeless powder and just try to eyeball 100 grains of smokeless but then you guys got me thinking maybe I should carry the old powder measure also...... lol I'm just picking on you I do know you weigh smokeless just laughing thinking about everyone cussing.
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Don't waste time, load straight out of the can. Don't forget to shorten the barrel to 20-inches to better your velocity. Also, you may want to consider using a double-base vs single-base. You can get a pretty respectable detonation velocity of about 7,300 m/s (23,950 ft/s) with a single-base powder, but if you're going through all that trouble to chop the barrel down to 20-inches, you can increase the detonation velocity up to around 7,700 m/s (25,260 ft/s) with a double-base. I'd not bother posting any of your load data, you and srwshooter out of Grottoes would be the only persons on the planet interested. But, I'm sure if it is spectacular enough, you guys may make this years "hold my beer and watch this" Darwin Awards. For that, there needs to be some sort of Youtube video to showcase your self-selecting actions. Now that may be something the rest of us would find useful to post when others are vying for the same award. Best
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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There is no way to coexist no matter how many bumper stickers there are on Subaru bumpers!
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In terms of sanity, load the included bullet/sabot with 130gr volume (91gr weight) of Blackhorn 209 and shoot away. You can get respectable groups with that combo. Same load of powder, but shoot Parker Production 275BEs and you can get a most respectable group. The above charge will handle most any chore needed, but, you may find slightly improved results under certain circumstances by increasing the charge weight some degree. Western Powders have yet to release their new load data for this specific rifle, but they have completed testing so far with loads as high as 150gr volume. Others, such as Bob Parker have recorded exceptional results shooting loads with the 275BE at 160gr volume. I suspect that something around that range will end up being the new top charge of Blackhorn 209 with this specific rifle. It will be head and shoulders above any load of 777. Good Luck, I'll either see some posts about your success with this rifle, or I'll watch your award winning Darwin video. Those can be rather humorous in the stupidity of self-actions exercised by the recipients, but, I do believe all were killed except one since the awards inception. Good Luck 
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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If loads are posted, moderators need to delete them as they did on Doug's Message Boards smokeless forum.
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szihn
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If loads are posted, moderators need to delete them as they did on Doug's Message Boards smokeless forum. yep.......................................................... also muzzleloading Darwin awards as per garyva  , handed out to several on here also
Last edited by renegade50; 03/09/15.
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