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This is not truly a moral dilemma, but it sure as hell feels like one to me.

As some of you know, I am looking for a "beater" Pre '64 M70 stock. I feel a little bit bad searching for one because I really don't like to see old rifles taken apart. After all, there are a finite number of Pre '64 M70s in the world and it would be nice to keep them intact. On the other hand, some of us truly prefer different stocks, and never plan to return the rifle to original, so maybe we should pass the stock on to someone who wants it. It is what it is.

I can pretty much live with the above, but now we come to this. I'm looking on the 'Bay and it is clear someone has taken a perfectly good '52 Standard .30-06 completely apart and is selling the pieces. As far as I can tell, the only thing "bad" about the rifle was that it had been cut for a pad. And when I say "apart", I pretty much mean it. The bolt is out of the receiver and the bolt is apart, with the extractor ring being sold separately from the extractor, the firing pin separate from the bolt shroud, even the safety out of the bolt shroud. The sights are off the barrel and sold separately. The swivels are out of the stock, but at least they are being sold together with the sling. There are a few more things grouped together, like the action screws, and the trigger parts, but gee whiz.

So, I write the guy to ask a question about the stock, and ask where the receiver is and why he didn't sell the whole rifle. He writes back the receiver is on Gunbroker, gives me the item number on that site, and says "I sell parts."

Sure enough, the receiver is there on GB, stripped bare except the filler screws for the receiver sight are still in it. The guy wouldn't at least sell an intact action where the receiver and bolt numbers match.

Now, I know it is a free country, and people can do as they please with their property. I also understand what they do is none of my damn business. I also understand he will get a lot more from the rifle this way, and who knows, maybe he really needs the money. But I admit the whole deal just pizzes me off on a fundamental level.

If someone decides to break out a NIB and start shooting it, that doesn't bother me at all. To me that is simply a monetary decision on their part, and they are using the rifle, but not destroying it. But this is different, as least to me. I was considering bidding on the stock, I'm doubting I can bring myself to support this endeavor by doing so.

I would really like to know the story. Is this some kid who thinks he is really smart, somebody who really needs the money, or just someone who has no soul when it comes to rifles?

I know I have gone on too long and am really starting to rant, but are you guys getting the message of how bad this pizzes me off?

I hope someone finds a stock to sell me that I can buy without feeling crappy about it. And please, give me your thoughts and tell me I am not alone. Or, if I shouldn't be this hot, tell me why.

Gun Doc


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Kind of reminds us of ISIS running through Mid East museums with sledgehammers, huh? cry

This is akin to painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa, washing down Malossol Caviar with Miller Light,or killing perfectly good black bears for the gall bladders.....some things should simply not be done....even if you can. frown

More than a few pre 64's have been torn apart for questionable reasons.....like one builder of tactical rifles who would only use pre war actions..... Or like one guy I met whose 30/06 shot just fine but he was going to replace the tube with a "good button rifled barrel"........ (?) crazy But that's what happens when your rifle shooting experience is limited to peering myopically through a spotting scope at 1" grids....the picture gets distorted by tunnel vision. smile

Nothing much we can do here but lament that there are opportunists who want to double up on their "investment". If there were not a market for the parts they would not do it....but the insanity in pre 64 M70 collector prices drives the engine these days and even the shooter grade guns are affected.

There are no limits to the extent of nefarious human activity. sick

I swore off building customs on pre 64 actions awhile ago unless the rest of the rifle has been trashed.The rifles have longer useable service life than the Neanderthals who tear them apart.....thankfully. smile

At least that offers some solace.

Last edited by BobinNH; 03/01/15.



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Bob, if there weren't guys building customs like you and your friends did in the 80's I probably wouldn't have ended up with such a great deal on my 338 win mag. You know the one built on the H&H action with stainless barrel and brown precision stock. Don't know if you saw that one grin.. Don't worry, I won't post a picture of it.. Anyway, I won't tear one apart to sell just to make a profit. However, I have taken stocks off of my rifles and sold them on ebay so I could invest in stronger more weather resistant stocks (Mcmillan comes to mind). In my mind, I'm always hoping I'm helping a good guy out when I do this. Maybe some poor guy has a beautiful fwt with a broken stock due to a tragic accident and he is desperately in need of a good stock. Maybe someone is looking for just the right stock and he comes across one of mine for sale. I'm hoping I just made his day and it helps me to get the stock I want. Sometimes I just hang the original stocks on the wall and admire them. I've had some sit in a cardboard box and I start feeling like: "Damn, someone could be using that stock instead of it just sitting in that box!!!!!". EricM's rifle (1951 std wt comes to mind). That rifle was a beautiful piece of history. It was all original until I took the stock off because I didn't want to mess it up any further. I'm a serious hunter/shooter and figured that rifle would benefit from a nice pillar/glass bedding job, but I'd be damned if I was going to do that to it's beautiful original stock. So I found a very nice subject to work on and the pillar/glass bedding turned out pretty good and the rifle is an absolute tack driver/sleeper. I still appreciate that rifle for what it was and is now. I actually used that rifle in some of our hunter class centerfire competitions here at my gun club and walked away with money every time. Eric knows how much money I had into the rifle after I sold the original stock, rear sight (22G/3C), scope, sling, original aperture sight (new still in the box) that came with the rifle when I bought it, you guys getting the picture?? Plus it won me money at the local shoots. Damn, if I add that into the figure you don't want to know how much I had into it!!!! I'm just glad Eric is a truly understanding individual and realizes what that rifle is!! I guess for his rifle I deemed some of those parts unnecessary for my use and this is why:

1. Original stock: Too nice to use and glass bed and mess up...
2. 22G sight obstructed too much to use a good modern scope..
3. Original peep/aperture sight would probably never get used..
4. Old redfield scope (3-9x40) was very nice, I just wanted a more modern scope on it....

Other things I'll do is glass bed magnums!!!!!!! I pulled a very nice stock off of my 375H&H and sold it on ebay so I could use a dual cross bolt stock because it is a stronger style stock. It's not as pretty, but it's stronger and sometimes that's more important to me. Being a hunter first, shooter second, and collector last, that's just the way I deal with pre 64's. Like I've said before, I keep it honest so a guy knows exactly what he is getting and let the rifle sell itself. What erks me is when a guy is selling a rifle that he deems "all original", when it is blatantly clear it is NOT!!!!

Good discussion here. I'm sure we will not all see eye to eye on this, but this is kind of where I'm at with it....


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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A rifle or shotgun for that matter is only as good as it's barrel. Perhaps the barrel on the gun in question was junk. I love Parker shotguns and Pre64 M70's and while I have bought shotguns as parts guns I have never done it to a rifle. I have sunk money into a gun to bring it back to life. A case in point is a Pre 64 M70 7MM carbine I bought at an estate sale. I later find out that some idiot drilled a hole right through the chamber! The barrel was junk and rather than parting it out (I wanted an action for a custom project) I bought a Pre 64 barrel of a different caliber on E-Bay and now I have a hunting rifle albeit an expensive one.
I have restocked exactly one Pre 64 M70 a 270 FWT that the original stock looked like someone tried to free float the barrel using a chainsaw. This was 20+ years ago and in my youth I had a custom stock made for it. Now I'd like to find another FWT 270 to go with the rest of the FWT's just for the originality.
If your going to modify the gun keep the original parts with it. Just my thought. IMHO to take a perfectly useable gun and part it out is just plain wrong.

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bsa I have modified a few and used actions for customs, too.Some of my post was TIC,although I get guilt issues sometimes myself. smile

Hey it happens and no big deal. I treat it case by case,rifle to rifle. I bought 5 rifles out of a collection....rifles were mint,all of them and hanging around unused since the 60's. The 375 was so nice I could not bring myself to mess with it at all,and knowing it could crack at some point, I sold it.I replaced that one recently with a "user".

The stock will get sold because it isn't all original to the rifle anyway and I won't need it.

Like you I use them. I don't collect. Setting the stock in a corner and getting a second user stock does no real harm anyway. A guy can always put it back together.

Last edited by BobinNH; 03/01/15.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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If it is the (ebay) fellow I am thinking of, this is a pretty regular activity for him. He has bid against me for Pre-64s on GB before. He undoubtedly has a price point and if he is able to meet that, he strips them and sells them.......... Maybe I'll sell my Hornet in pieces wink

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Bob, I'm lucky in that my smith would probably kick my azz if I brought in a primo pre 64 to pull a nice barrel off. He's a pre 64 nut and values them more than anyone else I know. I've learned more from listening to that guy than what I can read in Rule's book. I've also learned a ton from you and also our mutual friend down here (blackdog1). I'm honored to know and learn from guys like you!!

Back to my smith: he'd beat me on my head with a Winchester barrel if he thought I was dismantling them grin. However, when I run across one like this:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

And turn it into something like this:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I feel better that I gave a rifle a new lease on life. I do understand how gundoc feels too, as I feel the same way about guys that just strip them down to turn a proffit.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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America ! Every time we lose a gun to parts our guns go up a bit in value. This guy may be in a wheelchair and this is what he does to make a living vs collect govt checks. The parts are going on other guns to keep them running... just my take very best WinPoor

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bsa that rifle looked like my old 375. grin

Last edited by BobinNH; 03/01/15.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

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Let's part those dealers into pieces.

An eye for an eye.

That's what Dad always says.


“Factio democratica delenda est"
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
bra that rifle looked like my old 375. grin


Maybe it was at one time!!!! You never know Bob.. It is a small world you know. laugh


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Those who say don't may need an original part someday. At which time they will have to go to someone who has them. Willingly I'm more than certain. smile


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Yes sir, I needed an original extractor for my '57 270 fwt and I was very thankful I found one in like new condition and it works perfectly. Phew!!!! That's the only extractor I've ever had to replace on a pre 64, but when you need one, you need one..


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
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BSA, (and some others),

It is true that we may not see entirely eye to eye on this subject. But it is a disagreement among gentlemen, and this is why. While there are some things I wish you wouldn't do, it is clear to me you have a passion for these rifles and are trying to CREATE something. Even the guy who believes he needs pre-war actions on his tactical rifle builds is trying to CREATE something. The only thing this guy on eBay is trying to create is money in his pocket.

I could at least halfway (BARELY, JUST BARELY!) understand taking a good rifle apart and selling lock, stock, and barrel separately. I would have to be in dire straights to do it, and I pray I never am, but at least some one would be getting something they needed to restore or create something. I would at least keep the action intact for the guy who wanted to build a work of art custom, a hard use hunting rifle, or even a tactical.

But this guy . . . this guy is taking just about everything apart, and tells me "I sell parts." (I'm getting pizzed off all over again thinking about that statement and writing this!) If you go and look at his feedback (100%!!!) there is some eBayer praising him as a "great seller" when the eBayer clearly had to bid on and buy separately all the pieces to get a working bolt back together to put in a rifle. Whoever buys the receiver off of GB is now going to have to do something similar. Couldn't he at least have kept the working matching numbers bolt with the receiver?! Of course he could, but there was more money in doing what he did.

I don't remember where I heard the term "parts whores." I don't think I invented it, but I cannot remember where it came from. Regardless, the term fits, and fits well.

I learned a long time ago that everyone has a story, and if I knew the whole story it might change my opinion. That is why I said in my first post that I would really like to know the story on this guy.

If I were insanely rich, I would consider starting a company to make good quality aftermarket reproduction parts just to drive these guys out of business. Extractor rings damn sure wouldn't "start" at $9.99 unless I really had to charge that to make a small, fair profit!

As it is, I don't think I can bring myself to bid on this guy's stock, even if it looks like it is going to go cheap. If I did, and the rifle I put it on shot like chit, I'd be thinking "Yeah, Doc, you got what you deserved, Karma is a bitch."

I'd happily buy a stock from someone like BSA, Winchesterpoor, or some others, people who care about rifles and respect them.

Gun Doc



Last edited by GunDoc7; 03/02/15.

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Where there is a market someone will be there to fill demand.

Model 70 fans don't have it near as bad as the Winchester lever guys. A good friend is always in competition with the parts hounds on 1886's.

While you hate to see a good functioning rifle cannibalized there is another rifle out there that needs rescued and those parts may bring another rifle back to life.

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If I had another nice std wt monte carlo stock to sell, I'd offer it up. As it is now, I have 1 original fwt stock left and that's only because there may be a chance I go back to it and sell the swirly..... whistle


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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In 100 years we will all be gone and no one left will care much about pre 64 M70's,except dusty old collectors with white gloves who will admire the relics in museums....if there are any left after the tyrants melt them all down.

No need for concerns....use and enjoy. smile




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Guys, I get that whoever buys the pieces needs them to get a rifle back together. I don't see even the "may" in the statement that it "may bring another rifle back to life." I cannot imagine any other reason for paying those prices. And that is the only saving grace to this whole mess. If I had to have a part to keep the rifle running, I'd probably be right there bidding. So, maybe the difference is I want a beater stock rather than I need a beater stock.

But, at the end of the day, it still seems to me like a line has been crossed. I think that as long as this guy gets his money, he could care less if an old rifle was restored or some crackpot artist decided to weld the parts together to make a "Winchester lamp."

Again, I am reluctant to pass judgement (not that anyone really cares what I think anyway) without knowing the whole story. I hope this guy has some really good reasons other than "I sell parts."


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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
If I had another nice std wt monte carlo stock to sell, I'd offer it up. As it is now, I have 1 original fwt stock left and that's only because there may be a chance I go back to it and sell the swirly..... whistle


I know you would, and from what I have seen you would price it at a point where we would both be happy with the deal.

The one I really hope to find has already been cut for a pad, has some pretty bad dings, and the finish is flaking off right and left. If someone GAVE me an original with the butt intact, I would have a hard time making myself cut it. Maybe if it had some other major damage involving a lab puppy or a chainsaw or something . . .


Clinging to guns & religion since 1959

Keyboards make people braver than alcohol

Election Integrity is more important than Election Convenience

Washington Post: "Democracy Dies in Darkness"
More correct: "Killing Democracy Faster Than Darkness"
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I had just the stock, but sold it a few months ago. I let it go for $150.00. It looked exactly like the one on my 338 Alaskan. I was saving that one for the Alaskan, but realized I'd probably never have any problems with the Alaskan stock because it's already pillar/glass bedded. I don't think I have any pictures of the stock, but it looked just like this one:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I won't shoot another 338 or 375 that isn't glass bedded very well....:
[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

BSA MAGA
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