Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Moral Dilemma

This is not truly a moral dilemma, but it sure as hell feels like one to me.

As some of you know, I am looking for a "beater" Pre '64 M70 stock. I feel a little bit bad searching for one because I really don't like to see old rifles taken apart. After all, there are a finite number of Pre '64 M70s in the world and it would be nice to keep them intact. On the other hand, some of us truly prefer different stocks, and never plan to return the rifle to original, so maybe we should pass the stock on to someone who wants it. It is what it is.

I can pretty much live with the above, but now we come to this. I'm looking on the 'Bay and it is clear someone has taken a perfectly good '52 Standard .30-06 completely apart and is selling the pieces. As far as I can tell, the only thing "bad" about the rifle was that it had been cut for a pad. And when I say "apart", I pretty much mean it. The bolt is out of the receiver and the bolt is apart, with the extractor ring being sold separately from the extractor, the firing pin separate from the bolt shroud, even the safety out of the bolt shroud. The sights are off the barrel and sold separately. The swivels are out of the stock, but at least they are being sold together with the sling. There are a few more things grouped together, like the action screws, and the trigger parts, but gee whiz.

So, I write the guy to ask a question about the stock, and ask where the receiver is and why he didn't sell the whole rifle. He writes back the receiver is on Gunbroker, gives me the item number on that site, and says "I sell parts."

Sure enough, the receiver is there on GB, stripped bare except the filler screws for the receiver sight are still in it. The guy wouldn't at least sell an intact action where the receiver and bolt numbers match.

Now, I know it is a free country, and people can do as they please with their property. I also understand what they do is none of my damn business. I also understand he will get a lot more from the rifle this way, and who knows, maybe he really needs the money. But I admit the whole deal just pizzes me off on a fundamental level.

If someone decides to break out a NIB and start shooting it, that doesn't bother me at all. To me that is simply a monetary decision on their part, and they are using the rifle, but not destroying it. But this is different, as least to me. I was considering bidding on the stock, I'm doubting I can bring myself to support this endeavor by doing so.

I would really like to know the story. Is this some kid who thinks he is really smart, somebody who really needs the money, or just someone who has no soul when it comes to rifles?

I know I have gone on too long and am really starting to rant, but are you guys getting the message of how bad this pizzes me off?

I hope someone finds a stock to sell me that I can buy without feeling crappy about it. And please, give me your thoughts and tell me I am not alone. Or, if I shouldn't be this hot, tell me why.

Gun Doc

Kind of reminds us of ISIS running through Mid East museums with sledgehammers, huh?

This is akin to painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa, washing down Malossol Caviar with Miller Light,or killing perfectly good black bears for the gall bladders.....some things should simply not be done....even if you can.

More than a few pre 64's have been torn apart for questionable reasons.....like one builder of tactical rifles who would only use pre war actions..... Or like one guy I met whose 30/06 shot just fine but he was going to replace the tube with a "good button rifled barrel"........ (?) But that's what happens when your rifle shooting experience is limited to peering myopically through a spotting scope at 1" grids....the picture gets distorted by tunnel vision.

Nothing much we can do here but lament that there are opportunists who want to double up on their "investment". If there were not a market for the parts they would not do it....but the insanity in pre 64 M70 collector prices drives the engine these days and even the shooter grade guns are affected.

There are no limits to the extent of nefarious human activity.

I swore off building customs on pre 64 actions awhile ago unless the rest of the rifle has been trashed.The rifles have longer useable service life than the Neanderthals who tear them apart.....thankfully.

At least that offers some solace.

Bob, if there weren't guys building customs like you and your friends did in the 80's I probably wouldn't have ended up with such a great deal on my 338 win mag. You know the one built on the H&H action with stainless barrel and brown precision stock. Don't know if you saw that one .. Don't worry, I won't post a picture of it.. Anyway, I won't tear one apart to sell just to make a profit. However, I have taken stocks off of my rifles and sold them on ebay so I could invest in stronger more weather resistant stocks (Mcmillan comes to mind). In my mind, I'm always hoping I'm helping a good guy out when I do this. Maybe some poor guy has a beautiful fwt with a broken stock due to a tragic accident and he is desperately in need of a good stock. Maybe someone is looking for just the right stock and he comes across one of mine for sale. I'm hoping I just made his day and it helps me to get the stock I want. Sometimes I just hang the original stocks on the wall and admire them. I've had some sit in a cardboard box and I start feeling like: "Damn, someone could be using that stock instead of it just sitting in that box!!!!!". EricM's rifle (1951 std wt comes to mind). That rifle was a beautiful piece of history. It was all original until I took the stock off because I didn't want to mess it up any further. I'm a serious hunter/shooter and figured that rifle would benefit from a nice pillar/glass bedding job, but I'd be damned if I was going to do that to it's beautiful original stock. So I found a very nice subject to work on and the pillar/glass bedding turned out pretty good and the rifle is an absolute tack driver/sleeper. I still appreciate that rifle for what it was and is now. I actually used that rifle in some of our hunter class centerfire competitions here at my gun club and walked away with money every time. Eric knows how much money I had into the rifle after I sold the original stock, rear sight (22G/3C), scope, sling, original aperture sight (new still in the box) that came with the rifle when I bought it, you guys getting the picture?? Plus it won me money at the local shoots. Damn, if I add that into the figure you don't want to know how much I had into it!!!! I'm just glad Eric is a truly understanding individual and realizes what that rifle is!! I guess for his rifle I deemed some of those parts unnecessary for my use and this is why:

1. Original stock: Too nice to use and glass bed and mess up...
2. 22G sight obstructed too much to use a good modern scope..
3. Original peep/aperture sight would probably never get used..
4. Old redfield scope (3-9x40) was very nice, I just wanted a more modern scope on it....

Other things I'll do is glass bed magnums!!!!!!! I pulled a very nice stock off of my 375H&H and sold it on ebay so I could use a dual cross bolt stock because it is a stronger style stock. It's not as pretty, but it's stronger and sometimes that's more important to me. Being a hunter first, shooter second, and collector last, that's just the way I deal with pre 64's. Like I've said before, I keep it honest so a guy knows exactly what he is getting and let the rifle sell itself. What erks me is when a guy is selling a rifle that he deems "all original", when it is blatantly clear it is NOT!!!!

Good discussion here. I'm sure we will not all see eye to eye on this, but this is kind of where I'm at with it....

A rifle or shotgun for that matter is only as good as it's barrel. Perhaps the barrel on the gun in question was junk. I love Parker shotguns and Pre64 M70's and while I have bought shotguns as parts guns I have never done it to a rifle. I have sunk money into a gun to bring it back to life. A case in point is a Pre 64 M70 7MM carbine I bought at an estate sale. I later find out that some idiot drilled a hole right through the chamber! The barrel was junk and rather than parting it out (I wanted an action for a custom project) I bought a Pre 64 barrel of a different caliber on E-Bay and now I have a hunting rifle albeit an expensive one.
I have restocked exactly one Pre 64 M70 a 270 FWT that the original stock looked like someone tried to free float the barrel using a chainsaw. This was 20+ years ago and in my youth I had a custom stock made for it. Now I'd like to find another FWT 270 to go with the rest of the FWT's just for the originality.
If your going to modify the gun keep the original parts with it. Just my thought. IMHO to take a perfectly useable gun and part it out is just plain wrong.

bsa I have modified a few and used actions for customs, too.Some of my post was TIC,although I get guilt issues sometimes myself.

Hey it happens and no big deal. I treat it case by case,rifle to rifle. I bought 5 rifles out of a collection....rifles were mint,all of them and hanging around unused since the 60's. The 375 was so nice I could not bring myself to mess with it at all,and knowing it could crack at some point, I sold it.I replaced that one recently with a "user".

The stock will get sold because it isn't all original to the rifle anyway and I won't need it.

Like you I use them. I don't collect. Setting the stock in a corner and getting a second user stock does no real harm anyway. A guy can always put it back together.

If it is the (ebay) fellow I am thinking of, this is a pretty regular activity for him. He has bid against me for Pre-64s on GB before. He undoubtedly has a price point and if he is able to meet that, he strips them and sells them.......... Maybe I'll sell my Hornet in pieces

Bob, I'm lucky in that my smith would probably kick my azz if I brought in a primo pre 64 to pull a nice barrel off. He's a pre 64 nut and values them more than anyone else I know. I've learned more from listening to that guy than what I can read in Rule's book. I've also learned a ton from you and also our mutual friend down here (blackdog1). I'm honored to know and learn from guys like you!!

Back to my smith: he'd beat me on my head with a Winchester barrel if he thought I was dismantling them . However, when I run across one like this:




And turn it into something like this:




I feel better that I gave a rifle a new lease on life. I do understand how gundoc feels too, as I feel the same way about guys that just strip them down to turn a proffit.

America ! Every time we lose a gun to parts our guns go up a bit in value. This guy may be in a wheelchair and this is what he does to make a living vs collect govt checks. The parts are going on other guns to keep them running... just my take very best WinPoor

bsa that rifle looked like my old 375.

Let's part those dealers into pieces.

An eye for an eye.

That's what Dad always says.

Maybe it was at one time!!!! You never know Bob.. It is a small world you know.

Those who say don't may need an original part someday. At which time they will have to go to someone who has them. Willingly I'm more than certain.

Yes sir, I needed an original extractor for my '57 270 fwt and I was very thankful I found one in like new condition and it works perfectly. Phew!!!! That's the only extractor I've ever had to replace on a pre 64, but when you need one, you need one..

BSA, (and some others),

It is true that we may not see entirely eye to eye on this subject. But it is a disagreement among gentlemen, and this is why. While there are some things I wish you wouldn't do, it is clear to me you have a passion for these rifles and are trying to CREATE something. Even the guy who believes he needs pre-war actions on his tactical rifle builds is trying to CREATE something. The only thing this guy on eBay is trying to create is money in his pocket.

I could at least halfway (BARELY, JUST BARELY!) understand taking a good rifle apart and selling lock, stock, and barrel separately. I would have to be in dire straights to do it, and I pray I never am, but at least some one would be getting something they needed to restore or create something. I would at least keep the action intact for the guy who wanted to build a work of art custom, a hard use hunting rifle, or even a tactical.

But this guy . . . this guy is taking just about everything apart, and tells me "I sell parts." (I'm getting pizzed off all over again thinking about that statement and writing this!) If you go and look at his feedback (100%!!!) there is some eBayer praising him as a "great seller" when the eBayer clearly had to bid on and buy separately all the pieces to get a working bolt back together to put in a rifle. Whoever buys the receiver off of GB is now going to have to do something similar. Couldn't he at least have kept the working matching numbers bolt with the receiver?! Of course he could, but there was more money in doing what he did.

I don't remember where I heard the term "parts whores." I don't think I invented it, but I cannot remember where it came from. Regardless, the term fits, and fits well.

I learned a long time ago that everyone has a story, and if I knew the whole story it might change my opinion. That is why I said in my first post that I would really like to know the story on this guy.

If I were insanely rich, I would consider starting a company to make good quality aftermarket reproduction parts just to drive these guys out of business. Extractor rings damn sure wouldn't "start" at $9.99 unless I really had to charge that to make a small, fair profit!

As it is, I don't think I can bring myself to bid on this guy's stock, even if it looks like it is going to go cheap. If I did, and the rifle I put it on shot like chit, I'd be thinking "Yeah, Doc, you got what you deserved, Karma is a bitch."

I'd happily buy a stock from someone like BSA, Winchesterpoor, or some others, people who care about rifles and respect them.

Gun Doc

Where there is a market someone will be there to fill demand.

Model 70 fans don't have it near as bad as the Winchester lever guys. A good friend is always in competition with the parts hounds on 1886's.

While you hate to see a good functioning rifle cannibalized there is another rifle out there that needs rescued and those parts may bring another rifle back to life.

If I had another nice std wt monte carlo stock to sell, I'd offer it up. As it is now, I have 1 original fwt stock left and that's only because there may be a chance I go back to it and sell the swirly.....

In 100 years we will all be gone and no one left will care much about pre 64 M70's,except dusty old collectors with white gloves who will admire the relics in museums....if there are any left after the tyrants melt them all down.

No need for concerns....use and enjoy.

Guys, I get that whoever buys the pieces needs them to get a rifle back together. I don't see even the "may" in the statement that it "may bring another rifle back to life." I cannot imagine any other reason for paying those prices. And that is the only saving grace to this whole mess. If I had to have a part to keep the rifle running, I'd probably be right there bidding. So, maybe the difference is I want a beater stock rather than I need a beater stock.

But, at the end of the day, it still seems to me like a line has been crossed. I think that as long as this guy gets his money, he could care less if an old rifle was restored or some crackpot artist decided to weld the parts together to make a "Winchester lamp."

Again, I am reluctant to pass judgement (not that anyone really cares what I think anyway) without knowing the whole story. I hope this guy has some really good reasons other than "I sell parts."

I know you would, and from what I have seen you would price it at a point where we would both be happy with the deal.

The one I really hope to find has already been cut for a pad, has some pretty bad dings, and the finish is flaking off right and left. If someone GAVE me an original with the butt intact, I would have a hard time making myself cut it. Maybe if it had some other major damage involving a lab puppy or a chainsaw or something . . .

I had just the stock, but sold it a few months ago. I let it go for $150.00. It looked exactly like the one on my 338 Alaskan. I was saving that one for the Alaskan, but realized I'd probably never have any problems with the Alaskan stock because it's already pillar/glass bedded. I don't think I have any pictures of the stock, but it looked just like this one:



I won't shoot another 338 or 375 that isn't glass bedded very well....:

A stock similar to that one would be perfect. Actually, it is almost too nice, but it would work. I would have paid $150 in a heartbeat.

It has occurred to me to buy some cheap part from the guy just for the opportunity to let him have both barrels on feedback. But you only get so many characters on feedback, and again, I don't know the whole story.

I have a FWT stock sitting around and a nice one at that, I was considering offering up for a more than fair price. Think I'll just keep it for now.

In case you weren't aware of Wisners Inc.... They make outstanding repro parts for a few firearms. Model 70's just happen to be one of their specialty. Granted not the cheapest, but dam fine quality.

http://www.wisnersinc.com/web_layout/rifles/winchester/70pre.html

hey BSA,
I would't mess with a pristine rifle, but luckily I don't own any of those ;-)

Example, I bought this '41 308 heavy palma barrel match rifle and doesn't have any collector value, but a re-barrel & restock (if I ever find a cloverleaf hunting stock) and it will chasing deer long after I am gone.

Tim

battue,

If you read my posts, I believe I have said or implied in just about every one of them, including the last one, that I can't truly judge this guy without knowing the whole story. Haven't I said that more than once? Did I not qualify my statement above with "and again, I don't know the whole story."?

I'm not looking for a FWT stock, so I am not trying to change your mind. I am simply saying that, more than once, I have said that as much as I hate to see this guy doing what he is doing, perhaps if I knew the whole story I would feel differently.

At times, maybe too often, something "revenge like" occurs to me. By "both barrels" I meant tell him what I thought about his actions, in public, not leave dishonest feedback. But then I often realize I don't know enough to go forward. You don't know me, nor I you, so perhaps you don't think my qualifying statements are sincere. They are, but I guess you either believe me or you don't.

Best,
Gun Doc

I know.

I wonder how much extra profit this guys is making by parting a rifle out. I agree with you, Gun Doc, it's a real shame.

Eric

Man, I feel your pain. We at Ithaca lovers of Shotgunworld have been coping with this for quite a while now. Those precious old 37s being shamelessly parted out for profit. It's enough to make grown man

I have no problem with someone parting out a pre-64.
If you look at the big picture you have to consider that tearing down one plain vanilla 1960 30-06 may keep a dozen others running with original parts.
My 270 has a replacement barrel and replacement stock both from parted out rifles.
Three messed up rifles combined to make one very nice one.
Carry on.

POPGUN,

It is undoubtedly true that the majority of the parts, hopefully all of them, get other rifles up and running. That is the silver lining, and I have recognized it.

As far as the "plain vanilla 1960 30-06", one hopes those are the ones being parted out. The rifle that got me so riled up was a '52 .30-06 with the stock cut for a pad, something collectors hate to see. But it seems it was a nice enough rifle otherwise. The claim is the barrel is "excellent inside and out." The stock is a bit dinged, but certainly serviceable. All the parts point to a nice rifle someone would be proud to own and use. He has feedback for parts from a '46, so I'm not sure if anything is "safe." I suspect it is mostly a money deal, and some rifles are too expensive to part out. But I admit I don't know how this guy or any others decide what rifles to part out.

To be fair, other than the messed up rifle you started with, do you know if the parts you needed to complete your .270 came from other messed up rifles or perfectly fine ones that someone parted out? I guess it doesn't matter.

In the end, I suppose we are back to your main point. Perhaps the "important" thing, for lack of a better word, is the net number of functioning Pre '64s out there in the world. That is a number no one knows, but hopefully every parted out rifle, regardless of vintage or condition, results in a net increase.

At least it isn't something like the government cutting them up with a chop saw. That would be a true tragedy with no redeeming aspect.

Gun Doc

Mr Stealthgoat, how does she shoot as is? what length on barrel? Im interested if you decide to part with it, I may have a stock for it and would cut barrel back to 24", did you get bottom metal with the rig? very best winpoor

[/quote] .... Im interested if you decide to part with it, I may have a stock for it and would cut barrel back to 24", did you get bottom metal with the rig? very best winpoor [/quote]


Hey WinPoor, Good morning to you sir.
It was your picture of 'Carlos' and that big 8 point in the "Who shot a deer with a Model 70 this year" thread that made me start thinking I want to hunt whitetails with a pre-64 'snipery' this fall. A nice low comb cloverleaf hunting stock (wood or Mickey) is the hardest thing for me to find.
I do hope to have a whitetail picture with it in the fall!
Regards,
Tim

Mr Stealth, IF I had to go to one(1) gun that will be it, the very last to go! It is a one holer with a 36X and match ammo BUT the low comb steel buttplate will beat hell out of you on bench!You never notice a thing on the whitetails !!! very best WinPoor
Im building a 257 BOB target, varminter, Carlos JR as my old man deer hammer right now... v best

That's just plain awesome. Good luck with your hunting this year!!!!

It's just a rifle. We have a greedy bastard around these parts set on dividing farms into 5 acre tracts. I'm not sure what my kids will have to eat in the future if this trend continues.

Maybe when he passes, they'll cut him up into little bitty parts and bury him all across the countryside.

It is just a rifle, albeit a classic, even if it is a plain Jane classic. Another thing dividing up farms is multiple children inheriting them who have no interest keeping the farm intact. Eventually, the 5 acre tracts may get divided yet again.

At least the cannibalized rifle parts are not being buried, but hopefully being put to good use. At least there is that.

GunDoc7, Does the seller you refer to have a fruit in his seller name? (An apple maybe?)
John

John,

This particular seller has "hitch" in his seller name. Actually, I wonder why we have to dance around the names? All I have ever said, albeit sometimes colorfully and with passion, is:
- He parts out rifles.
- He seems to part them out to make the most money as opposed to keeping bolts intact and numbered bolts with receivers, etc.
- I hate to see it happen to solid, useable rifles.
- There is a silver lining to the whole deal as hopefully the parts result in a net increase of functioning Pre '64 M70's in the world.
- I would like to know more about his situation before I condemn him entirely (not that he or anyone else cares what I think.)

None of those statements are false. As far as I can determine, he describes the parts honestly, delivers on time, and deals fairly.

GunDoc,

I thought sure it was probably the same guy that wants $200 for a mag box. It appears to be from the same 220 Swift that looks like it is as thoroughly parted out as what you described.
I guess in the long run it's kind of like if I came into possession of a valuble Wurlitzer organ or piano and could quadruple my investment by parting it as opposed to selling it outright. Different strokes and different passions for different folks. I tend to look at the potential upside sort of like you do, maybe for each one parted out, a couple more stay running or get revived.
John

It also pisses me off when guys rip these things apart. WHY strip the bolt down to bare bones??? Keep the damn thing with the receiver for crying out loud!!! Then again, I am seeing your point about keeping the old ones running. I'm keeping the ones I have except for my Alaskan I promised to my buddy EricM.

BSA, the why is easy . . . we just don't like the answer. It is a straight money deal with these guys.

I'm not condoning the practice. I hate to see an old rifle taken apart for any reason, even to build a custom. I'm just looking for a silver lining.

A guy in Tallahassee is trying to sell me a new with box std 30-govt 06 barrel from factory, I am puzzled as the extractor is cut and it has a WP stamp on it! I thought replacement barrels got a different stamp! My gunshop,FFL says the dam thing is NOS brand new! Can any of you old timers shed any lite on the subject? very best WinPoor

You might want to check Rule's book, he talks about and has pics of barrels that were available from the factory and how they were proof stamped. They were stamped differently than barrels the factory had fitted to receivers.

It chaps my butt when they tear the bolt down to components, also the trigger group. Two buttplate screws for $12.00 is a bit much and two used buttplates for $199.00 is really over the top.

It seems high, however it reflects the value that many place on these old rifles.
If they were not held in high regard you would have to give parts away.

We can't have it both ways.

See much the same when it comes to old muscle car restorations. Nothing new or out of the ordinary.

battue,

Much the same, I agree, but I don't believe I have ever heard of someone buying a road worthy classic car and reducing it to parts for sale.

gunswizard,

If someone would make a good reproduction cocking piece/firing pin for when Bubba tries to retime a safety and messes up, maybe the bolt teardowns would slow down a bit. I believe good aftermarket extractors are available?

You got me there.

I was mainly referring to the cost of an original part when one could be found.

Not to keep beating this poor horse, but it looks like our friend just took apart a 1937 Super Grade .30-06.

You better stop whatchin these auctions or you'll get pissed off even more (it does me), because there's nothing we can do about it. Until people refuse to pay the money to make it profitable for these mofokers to tear nice old guns apart, it'll continue. Some people justify it as keeping other old guns functioning, I think in just as many or more cases it's to "upgrade" a functional rifle to get more money than what it's worth in it's original condition. In the case of the '37 Super Grade that shirhitch just parted out on ebay, it's just as likely whoever buys that stock will stick a standard grade barreled action in it and try to foist it off on some poor sap as a true Super Grade. Didn't we just have someone post a Super that proved to be pieced together?



FYI, that '37 Super Grade stock and floorplate together are already over $1100

I'm not watching the auctions because I want to. I'm looking for a stock, and the easiest way is to use the search function. When I do, his stuff comes up.

I believe you are correct that there is a good chance the buyer of the Super Grade stock is trying to "build" a Super Grade, and possibly for dishonest purposes to boot. But maybe not. Maybe the eventual buyer owns a dinged up Super, or wants to "build" the one they always wanted. (Something to consider, if anyone wanted to go to the trouble but I don't, would be to compare shirhitch's pictures to what comes up for sale in the next few months. Grain patterns are unique. But I have better things to do.) If anyone tries to build a fake, they had better have a rare chambering, because at shirhitch's prices they are going to have trouble making much money building a fake .270 or .30-06 Super Grade!

I do think there are some parts where your "upgrade of a functional rifle" theory doesn't work. Extractors, firing pins, and trigger parts are some examples.

OK, curiosity got the better of me concerning the '37 Super Grade .30-06.
The receiver is on Gunbroker. # 471373927
Serial number is 10380
The bridge has been D&T
The seller tells you the rest of the rifle is on the 'Bay and gives his seller name.
Right now, the stock and floorplate on the 'Bay are totaling about $1900

I'm sure glad I'm happy with the more pedestrian models in common chamberings!

stealthgoat, sent you a PM.