Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Can you shoot…?

It isn't elementary math.

People aren't machines and vary in skill sets. Go shoot them both a few thousand rounds....I have. Report back.

Thanks.

OK, if you say so.

I don't get what you are really saying. That you can't tell the difference between a 1 and a 2 minute rifle? Why is that? Is it that you can't detect the difference because your cone of dispersion is so much bigger than the rifle that you just can't see the difference?

I can tell you that my grouping ability off hand is poor enough that the difference between a 1 and 2 minute rifle would be hard to detect with only a handful of 5-shot groups. Elementary statistics says it absolutely will be detectable given enough rounds. Thousands are enough, and it doesn't matter if people are or are not machines.

Maybe you are saying you can shoot a smaller group off hand with a 2 minute rifle than I can with a 1 minute rifle. If so, I have no argument. But you will shoot a statistically smaller group with a 1 minute rifle than you will with a 2 minute rifle.

No. Not a bit. You have a good point.

To take it a bit farther, most of us shoot offhand most of the time and would be lucky to get near six MOA without a lot of luck without a rest.

Most of the MOA bullshit we hear about is just plain old dumb bragging and posturing and pretending.....and it gives us something to talk about.

Which is a legit need.

One caveat is that my above does not apply to real snipers and shootists who have near superhuman skills.

I know there are a few around.

It seems,... but it's not. Not sure what a good analogy would be, but thinking it's like adding a salt and water. 1 cup plus 1 cup does not equal 2 cups, though the simple math would suggest that it should.

Are you saying that your average group size with a crappy rifle is the same as your average group size with a good one?

I'm suggesting that most people, from average, ordinary field positions (like the last dozen big game animals they shot...at )would probably be hard pressed to tell whether they had had been shooting a <1 MOA rifle vs a 2 MOA rifle. I'm sure there are people who virtually always get themselves set up with a solid rest for whatever big game quarry they pursue, but I doubt that that is even close to what is average.

I would contend that most field shooting obscures the potential accuracy of any reasonably accurate (=/<2 MOA). IOW, you won't see the difference until you approach conditions of the familiar, bench-rest-solid position from which to shoot.

You don't need to be a sniper to take shots from better positions than offhand.

I agree with this ^. To say there is no difference is mathematically/statistically false. To say the difference is hard to discern or is of little consequence in the field is likely true in most cases.

You are correct and I'd add two things.

1. It probably extends to three or four MOA. A lot of game gets MISSED totally in offhand shooting (which can get pretty sloppy with a lot of people). After all, if people can miss an entire ANIMAL.....the question of MOA accuracy is moot.

2. This may be less of a real life factor being that hunting deer and some other game from elevated stands has become the norm rather than walking and stalking....most people probably shoot deer from a rest because they're in a stand.

You're confusing "field positions" with off-hand.

That's a common mistake among people who don't shoot much.

Those that can, do; Those that can't, talk about it...

I think that rifle fit might have way more to do with field accuracy than the difference between a 1 or 2 moa gun. I have a bar in 270 that after sending back to the factory and spending a couple hundred on components would shoot 1&3/8" for 5 shots. I had several rifles that shot better but I had confidence in that rifle and shoot it better by far than most that I have.

Fred

True, but shooting is beyond fit, is mostly mental. That work you did, may not have actually been beneficial, but you THOUGHT it was beneficial and so it was.

I agree completely. Shooting a lot breeds familiarity and confidence. I built a dulling tree for rifles and my friends and I shot it to pieces. I did some of my best off hand shooting during that time frame. Amazing how much more pressure there is when another guy is standing next to you banging away.

Fred

Shot NRA competition for a while, did well with a rifle in the Marines too, competed in some other rifle matches. All that stuff adds to marksmanship skills.

I thoroughly enjoy shooting a rifle. Handguns too. Take a day almost every week and head to the range. Usually take a .22 rifle and some swinging metal targets with me. I'll shoot them from 25 - 50 yards, standing, sitting, kneeling (ugh) and prone. Don't spend a lot of time in prone.

As hunting season approaches, I'll bump up from the .22 to my .308 and other rifles, and put the gong out at 300 yards. Sure makes great practice, position shooting at steel, out at 300 yards. Helps with marksmanship & confidence a lot. With the .308 I 'll often go through a whole box of 50 rounds in a practice session like that. If I move up to the .375, I settle for 20, that's plenty.

Am not a perfect shot by any means, but am pretty good. Have learned about heat & cold, mirage, winds, overcast & bright sun and what they all mean to the marksman. Have learned my rifles well. Have learned myself pretty well too. Can tell when I'm not shooting particularly well. The steel gong makes it real obvious.

I truly do enjoy the shooting. Calling it practice for hunting just helps me justify it a bit. Mostly I just enjoy.

Regards, Guy

I still may or may not understand your getting at?

But I can offer in field conditions - I'm good to 100 yds offhand, good to about 200 yds if I can find some type of a front rest and good to whatever the rifle can do with both a front and rear rest (like in a shooting house).

That said, there a concentration factor in offhand shooting that I don't completely understand. For me, I can muster a lot of concentration into a shot after which I'm drained and can't do it again. I don't try this type of offhand shot in the field. But can hit a 6" steel plate at the range offhand at 500 yds consistently - Requires sling technique, time, concentration, focus (refocus) several times and a real good feel for the trigger. Just holding a rifle until everything is just right will wear on me. However, It can be done with a 1/2 MOA rifle whereas couldn't be done with a 2 MOA rifle.

I hear what you're saying…good thoughts I can identify with in many respects. I'll bet that long distance effort and concentration might really be useful for the typical 200-300 yard shots where the target might be only momentarily still and the crosshairs never actually settle perfectly but you need a well-timed trigger break.

I know that most or many of us could certainly tell a 2 MOA rifle from a sub-MOA rifle if all the field shooting we ever did was prone or otherwise solidly rested. That, however, isn't the field reality for many folks, where getting prone might mean looking at vegetation of some form at a distance of about 2 yards.

I do not think an observer would be able to tell which rifle you were shooting even at a bench. The human factor of all but the finest trained shooters could negate any one minute advantage of one weapon over the other as far as observation would be concerned. "Field conditions" adds a substantial number of variables that make it highly unlikely a casual observer could tell the difference.
Given a "blind test" using two identical rifles it would seem to me even an experienced rifle shooter would be hard pressed to identify which was which without being able to evaluate the performances over several outings and multiple shot groups on paper. It is just as easy or difficult to "pull" a shot to open a group as it is to tighten one.
A true < MOA rifle would need to be tested in a controlled environment far removed from "field conditions" eliminating any and all variables.
That said, rifles that have or can shoot to MOA give shooters added confidence that, given their individual skill, a given shot on a given day gains in probability of success on the range, in competition or hunting animals. I sure would rather have the one MOA rifle just for the CYA factor if nothing else.

im prolly a decent shot on average....know alot of people that are better....do know i tend to shoot better with my guns versus someone elses when shooting offhand....apparently most dont like the combination of a straight comb and tall rings like i do but its what lines things up naturally for me....