On my rimmed cases, I adjust the sizer die so the shoulder is bumped back around .002" or so, which is the same as I do for rimless cases. So powder capacity & twist being equal, I would think the rimless cases should perform the same.
I think most (if not almost all) of the long range guys use bolt guns, which makes rimless cases a bit more troublesome. And single shots have two piece stocks, which can create accuracy issues.
I never have messed with a Zipper, but I have a Ruger #1 in .218 Bee, and for the small capacity seems to get plenty of speed in the small action, in the 3200's with 40 gr bullets
And the .30-40 in the strong #1 action, can equal .308 speeds.
The old-time cartridges will not be found in a fast twist barrel, so you'd have to build one.
A savage 340 would be easy enough to get a short chambered barrel for, but now that you mentioned the 30-40, wouldn't a Krag rebarreled to a zipper be a neat little gun?
RWE; Good afternoon to you sir, hopefully this finds you well.
I'm again going off of a foggy memory here, but at one time in the not too distant past there was a faction that was tired of the Russian derived PPC case taking all the glory in benchrest.
They - whomever "they" were - got someone and I want to say it was Federal to make up a bunch of .30-30 cases with small rifle primer pockets and made up to match case specs.
Anyway what the eventual outcome was I can't say nor recall, but I BELIEVE the initial results were favorable enough to be fun anyway.
We've played a fair bit with .30-30 and .303 British rounds here and size them as my cyber friend tex n cal describes.
Hopefully that was useful information for you or someone out there this afternoon sir. Good luck on the project whichever way you decide and all the best to you this March.
If you're going to hotrod a .219 Zipper I can think of more suitable actions than a Savage 340 or Krag (and mind you I have a soft spot for 340's and Krags). The single locking lugs found in both don't provide a huge margin of safety beyond the cartridges/pressures they were designed for. I know, the 340 was factory chambered in .225 Winchester once, but notice also the factory quietly withdrew it after a short run. If you stuck to relatively tame factory-level loads I can't imagine any issues, but who among us wouldn't be tempted to stretch performance a bit? Were it me I would scrounge up a Ruger #1, Winchester HiWall, or somesuch for a high velocity rimmed .22CF round.
No, short-chamberred .22 barrels aren't readily available for the 340. Barreling one from scratch would be just as expensive as barreling anything else, and then in the end all you would have would still be a Savage 340 (adequate but somewhat understrength) that you've just sunk a ton of money into.
Get yourself a copy of Landis' book on .22 caliber varmint rifles. Writing in 1946, he was in the thick of all that experimentation back then and charts the history, successes, and failures of guys who long ago traveled down this path. Fascinating reading. A must-read for someone who doesn't want to re-invent the wheel. This stuff has all been done before.
Last edited by gnoahhh; 03/01/15.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz "Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
If anything, you have two areas to headspace upon: rim and neck. That can aid in accuracy, but also in variance of the rim, perchance, is not uniform.
For what you want, the .219 Zipper would kick ass. Consider another barrel in .25-35 (AI?) as well.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
The advantage of using the Savage 340 would be really low initial cost (being that you know where you can find one). The rebarrel would be the major expense......and it could turn out to be a great shooter.
As I recall, the .225 Winchester was actually an Improved Zipper, so the plain old Zipper had somewhat lower pressures anyhow, so I don't see worries as to strength of action.
Still sounds good to me.
Could there be an old Savage 340 .225 Winchester barrel available from some parts dealer?
Intriguing idea.
Last edited by GutshotBuck; 03/01/15.
Troll Slayer--Last Best Hope and Lord and Savior of the unwashed masses.
Belted cases essentially headspace the same as rimmed cases. I believe there have been a pile of long range ( 1000yd) target shooting done with 300 winchester rifles. So the presence or absence of a rim is irrelevant IMHO.
I've had several .219 Zippers over the last thirty years. One was on a Krag action. I certainly wouldn't hot-rod a Krag, but then it's not necessary. One can get surprisingly good performance from a Krag-actioned .219 Zipper without straining anything. The Zipper has about 20% greater case capacity than a .223 Remington.
However, if you build a Zipper on a Krag action, you will have something that's not particularly desirable at resale time. Also, consider the cost of dies, the case forming chore, and frequent trimming of brass due to the shape of the case.
The Zipper sucks that's why the 219 Donaldson Wasp was invented.
There were lots of Zippers built on Krags also the 25 Krag. A better choice was and is a highwall.
If you don't have every book written by Charles Landis in your library you are missing a lot.
The 22 HP also sucked especially the silly .228 bullet and tapered case designed to increase bolt thrust on an action that was already springy.
Landis is why I own a R.F. Sedgley 22-06 fast twist that with today's powders and super bullets is killing machine long after a Swift or 22-250 has died.
The only equal modern cartridge is the 22/244 IMP which has the advantage of a shorter powder column.
BTW all cartridges with a shoulder should headspace on the shoulder.
Rims were for cartridges with no real shoulders and belts were H&Hs brilliant design to allow cartridges to be made undersized so they would always feed in cordite fouled, dirty and even rusty chambers and still have something to headspace on.
IMHO a 500 book library on guns and shooting is far better than 10 gunsafes stuffed with 500 guns.
If you built a top grade single shot target rifle using the 300 flanged (rimmed 300 H&H) you would be at no disadvantage against rimless or belted cartridge rifles.
I've had several .219 Zippers over the last thirty years. One was on a Krag action. I certainly wouldn't hot-rod a Krag, but then it's not necessary. One can get surprisingly good performance from a Krag-actioned .219 Zipper without straining anything. The Zipper has about 20% greater case capacity than a .223 Remington.
However, if you build a Zipper on a Krag action, you will have something that's not particularly desirable at resale time. Also, consider the cost of dies, the case forming chore, and frequent trimming of brass due to the shape of the case.
According to my case capacity chart, the 219 Zipper holds 3 more grains of H2O, 34 grains, than the 223 at 31 grains. The 225 holds 41 grains of H2O, 7 more grains (21%) than the 219 and 10 more grains (32%) than the 223.
The only thing that affects extended range performance is the bc of the boolit and the accuracy of the round launching it.
A case whether rimmed, rimless or belted is simply a container to hold a given volume of powder and a means of sealing the breach to hold the pressure of the gasses.
30-30 brass can give problems with incipient case head separation with a stretchy action like a t/c contender, but in a strong action there's nothing wrong with it.
Some bench resters even had Federal make a special run of small primer pocket 30-30 cases to see what they could do. They didn't topple the PPC, but as the case has a similar powder capacity it didn't perform too shabby either.
Not sure if you want to invest in a custom reamer or dies, but a 22/30-30 ackley type round would likely be worth the effort. You'd just have to figure the case capacity you'd want and whether you'd want to blow the shoulder well forward to shorten up the neck and take advantage of the larger capacity, or if you'd want to keep it on the smaller side and trim the neck back to shorten it up and just blow out the body and shoulder at the current location.
when I was talking about accuracy issues, I really wasn't talking target rifle Larry.
I have a thing about building stuff, even eccentric and esoteric stuff, and killing things with it.
I'm sure in your reply there may have been something of value, but when you sprinkle in things like the 22-06 thriving when the swift and 22-250 have gone the way of the do-do, its hard for me to give anything you write any value at all.
Although I will visit the wasp.
Anyway, for the rest of the "build just because" folks, can anyone advise if the Remington 788 bolt heads are interchangeable? I can't remember if they are one piece.
Since the left hand 788's were left bolt, right eject, IIRC, can a RH bolt head from a 30-30 be used on a LH action?
The 788 is a fairly stout action for a zipper/wasp.
Get yourself a copy of Landis' book on .22 caliber varmint rifles. Writing in 1946, he was in the thick of all that experimentation back then and charts the history, successes, and failures of guys who long ago traveled down this path. Fascinating reading. A must-read for someone who doesn't want to re-invent the wheel. This stuff has all been done before.
