Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Pre-64 SG Carbines

Do they exist or are they like unicorns.....
Has you one?

Own a minty pre-war .30/06....have handled several others..

They exist.

Photos man photos, Im ready for us to talk about winchesters! I have only seen and held 2 in my lifetime! very best winpoor

Steve Barnett has a .375 SG Carbine for sale on Guns International right now. Looks new. $11,50O
John

Barnett can come up with some good rare ones, he does not mind paying the big bucks coming in... v best winpoor

Steve needs to update the sight. I called him about that and a 22 Hornet carbine back in Sept The 375 was sold and I bought the Hornet.

Why anyone would want a carbine in a 375 is a mystery to me.

Steve is still showing a 250 3000 SG carbine NIB that I would love to own. I do not know if he still has it or not, I tried to buy a super late , 63 ish mod 70 in .284 from him and I was 2 days late as usual, everybody else was calling it fake but he was 100% it was NIB Kosher! very best WinPoor

That is a nice gun but at $22,500 it's to pricey to let it sit in the safe and way to expensive to shoot. I wouldn't mind the carbine in 7.65. I see the FWT 7MM is still out there and like the .284 it's being called a fake. If it wasn't so expensive it would make a great deer rifle.

Someday I'd like to find a SG 22 Hornet.

winpoor, you're apparently right that he doesn't mind paying the big bucks coming in. I KNOW he damn sure doesn't mind charging them going out...
Also, I've got to agree with GSPfan on what's the lure of a .375 carbine, especially if there's a chance in Hell you're going to actually shoot it!
John

I wasn't aware of that seller. Nice stuff but pricey is right!
The .308 SG FWT caught my eye. Not many of them in circulation and in that condition.

I have dealt with Steve for over 15years and he always has given me a better than advertised price. Good stuff costs good money.
Also if you buy from him and later on you wish to trade for another gun he will always give you what you paid originally towards the new gun sometimes more.

IMO, everyone of those rare model 70s for sale by Barnett on GI is a put-together gun. Am I the only one that thinks that and you other guys are just being nice? I mean come on let's get real, SG carbines, pencil barrel 375s, ultra rare calibers and configurations and they all look barely used. Really??? He obviously has this market cornered. I'd rather buy an old 30'06 with a pad and 80% blueing.

I own a SG Carbine in 257 Roberts, it's in far from perfect but it's not beat up at all, maybe 90%.

Prewar, I don't know Steve and I don't think he needs me to defend him but he deals in ultra rare and ultra valuble guns, not 80% 30/06's. Knowing the prices he gets if I were to get rid of my Carbine collection I would seriously consider having him sell them so it does not surprise me that he has a lot of guns that are super rare and perfect condition.

As far as put together SG in standards and carbines I consider them to be worth about $1000 more than if it wasn't a SG because it is so easy to swap stocks and generally a SG stock is worth about $1000.

Forgive the terrible picture, one of these days I need to really learn how to take decent gun pictures. The checkering looks nothing like it appears in the picture LOL!

Reelman that's a nice looking rifle and in one of my favorites. I have a std grade in 257 Roberts. No SG's yet. If I could find a SG in a Hornet then I'd have all three.

I heard that Steve bought a big collection of very nice Winchesters.

I'm starting to believe Steve is dealing in the "ultra fake" and not ultra valuable right along with Riffle and Perry County. A little common sense can serve a collector very well if they would just listen to it.

Reelman... what's the first 3 numbers on yours?
I may own it's brother.

Other than dollars what is the real difference between a real SG and a run of the mill 70 in a SG stock?

Did the SG action and barrel get special attention? If not, other than an order sheet sequence, one could be the other.

I have a lovely little 22 Hornet super grade, it's serial number is 116xxx which dates it to [IIRC] around mid 1948, good luck on your search they are sweet shooting rifles.

POP, I'm not at my house right now to check. It's a 1948 transition gun though so if my memory serves me right it should be around 80-85,000

A bit off topic, but:

[ Forgive the terrible picture, one of these days I need to really learn how to take decent gun pictures. The checkering looks nothing like it appears in the picture LOL! ]

I think this has to do more with the angle of checkering at that spot combined with the technology of digital photography than it has to do with poor technique on reelman's part

My Winchester friend if you do not have one I will loan you a dog eared wore out soft edition of Mr Roger Rules ,The Rifleman's Rifle ......These rare guns are out there and they are 100% real deal pure out of Winchester factory! You can call em all fake and put together all day long, I will be the first to tell you there are many of them ( I call them counterfeits )out there. But for you to think or say Steve Barnetts guns are counterfeits is Bullchit! very best WinPoor

Oh I have the books no need to loan me yours but that doesn't prove anything. The mind of a collector is a funny thing. Most try so hard to have the rarest of the rare which generally leads to very clouded judgment. I'm not saying they don't exist, they do, but your much more apt to find that rare rifle in the corner of grandpa's closet. A dealer that just keeps listing rare after rare rifle in the most unusual configurations, well that is cause for concern. Keep in mind that model 70s were utilitarian, they were purchased during hard times to be used, not put away and fondled over. Some "advanced" collectors would be better off in the stock market, at least they know what they're buying. You're not spending my money though, so whatever blows your skirt up. I just wish folks looked at some of the guns with more scrutiny, because it's so obvious.

+1 Prewar.
People are obviously going to believe what they want to believe about this grouping of 70's in these 'rare' calibers and configurations and one is not going to convince them otherwise....

My two Achilles heel are Parker shotguns and Pre 64 M70's. Parker made guns to be used from the Trojan right up the line to the A1 Special just as Winchester made a std grade and a Super Grade. Small bore Parkers bring much more than a 12 as would a Winchester in say 250-3000 compared to a 30/06. There are people throughout time that like the best they can buy just like some drive a Yougo and some a Cadillac. Collections are amassed over time and usually sold in one big lot to either an auction house or a dealer.
Just because these are high condition guns and in rare calibers and configurations to call them fake is absurd. With Parkers I have learned to never say never and I'm certain that back in the day when the customer was indeed valued they could go to Winchester or any of the gun companies and order just what they wanted.

I cannot defend Steve on several of his rare 70s. We've been friends for many years and I've bought a lot of guns from him with never a disappointment. Prewar is right on the money with all his observations. There's still a lot of deep pocket buyers of 70s who have not a clue beyond what they see or read...

Obvious issues were earlier pointed out on this forum but it appears there's a lot of people here who see but do not believe. Whoever the new barrel maker is really screwed up on a little detail on those rare caliber FWs...
70s suffer from a lack of factory records and the fakers are capitalizing on it.

Who can say, on the other hand that a gun with original Winchester parts isn't right?

I wouldn't want to be the buyer of that .250/3000 SG Carbine with the Special Order E carved wood....

I have only bought 2 Model 70s without looking them over in person.

1. Private seller on Gunbroker 1939 in .270. It was well represented and exactly what the pics and description said it was. I sold it a few years later because I didn't really "need 4 .270's at the time".

2. 1959 Alaskan 338wm from Perry County. This rifle was totally mis represented. I even called PC directly and asked about the rifle. Any cracks? "NO", Any repairs? "NO".

When it arrived at my FFL I was heartbroken. The stock was cracked in the tang and below at the rear screw. The stock was bedded horribly. The stock had been drilled for a crossbolt and istead of a crossbolt, the hole was filled with red epoxy. Then they drilled out voids in action in front of the trigger and filled it with epoxy to reinforce it.

I was pretty upset seeing how I was told over phone that the stock was unmolested. Miraculous that the pics on PC website didn't include the part of the stock with the crossbolt drilled out.

Needless to say I called them and to PC credit I was offered a full refund, which I declined. I was only in the rifle for 1400 so it wasn't too bad. I had a rough blank laying around so I knew I could put it in a new stock with a little effort ( it is almost done).

I guess the morale of the story is Caveat Emptor, and just because it is a reputable gun store, you never know.

If it's any consolation the guy at Perry County responsible for that type of shenanigan isn't involved any more...the present and sole owner is very much a stand-up guy....

I would also have to agreed with Mr. pre-war70 on this issue. While I've not bought any rifles from Mr. Barnett, I have from Randy Shuman and consider him today's top authority on the old 70. If you objectively look at the total numbers produced in the rarer calibers, then consider how many of those were supergrades, and then a step further, supergrade carbines, well, the numbers produced have to be exceptionally limited. To have rifle after rifle of that rarity, all in like new condition seems exceptionally unlikely. There is another well known purveyor of old 70s in Florida I believe, and you never see a rifle he has for sale that is anything other than 99% according to his ads and his reputation preceeds him. I have personally met a man that produces cut-rifled barrels, along with a roll stamp or more, and he supposedly has made a comment to the effect that he can't himself tell one of his "reproduction" (my term) barrels from an original once he has completed it and it is on the rifle.

You would think that a man like Mr. Shuman, after dealing predominantly in old 70s for 45 years, would have come across such rarities like the 7mm.

So let's cut the BS, are you guys saying that Steve is having these M70's manufactured and selling them as original? How is he doing this? Starting with a period rifle in a 30/06 or 270 and then having a new barrel made to perfect specs, then having all the special caliber parts like extractors, followers, magazine springs, etc. made, then having a SG stock made with the exact right dimensions, LPI checkering patterns and then being able to age the stock so the forend tip doesn't match perfect like they do after time? Am I the only one that finds this rather hard to believe?

Yes I'm sure there are faked M70's out there but to fake one it takes a lot more than just screwing a fake barrel on and action. You need to be more than just a great barrel maker, you need to be a great sheet metal guy to make a magazine box (because where are you going to find a 35 Rem magazine box?) and a great machinest to make the follower?

Why does Steve have these guns? BEcause he get's top dollar for them so he can afford to buy or consign them for people. Why are there so many rare guns in such good shape? My guess is that 50+ years ago people started collecting M70's and realized that things like SG carbines and super rare calibers like 9mm were things to put away and keep in perfect shape. 270's, 30/06's etc were always considered common and the attrition rate is much higher than the rare stuff. Even now standard caliber M70's are being hacked up, glass bedded, etc. but is anyone going to hack up a 250/3000 to use as a donor action? I also bet if a list of serial numbers was made we would be seeing these ultra rare M70's being sold over and over so that there aren't actually as many of them as we think.

M70's utilitarian? I don't think they were really ever considered utilitarian. Many of them were used very hard but M70's were always quite a bit more expensive than Remington and other rifles that I would consider them to be the utilitarian rifles.

Again, where Model 70 SG actions and barrels made and assembled to a higher standard than regular off the shelf examples?

Winchester claimed they were hand picked for accuracy but I highly doubt that they did anything more than just grab a bunch of standard receivers and barrels and assembled them as SG's.

Not sure if you guys have seen this or not.. Pretty darn good replication.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=462439197

Thx for posting that link pre6422hornet. I'm not saying Steve is doing this, I don't know who is but to answer your question, Yes. There are people out there manufacturing barrels, stocks, and parts. Original Winchester roll-dies have sold at recent auctions and turning a new barrel to factory specs isn't difficult. Mix in a few original parts with a few new ones and just wait for that "advanced collector" to come along with some cash. The easiest give away though, at least to my eyes, is the finish. You can replicate factory dimensions and specs, but to get that Winchester finish correct is next to impossible. And that is really all you need to do, find one item that's off with the rifle and you can guarantee you'll find more if you look hard enough. And on these ultra rare guns, one issue should be enough to make you run. I knew a guy that would take a newly put together model 70, distress it to give it age, grease/oil it a little, then put it in a garbage bag and blow the contents of a vacuum cleaner into it. Every nook and cranny of that rifle looked like it had 50 years of dust accumulation in all the right spots. People are nuts.

And to address your other point about Winchesters being utilitarian, they were absolutely that and nothing else. How many CT made Winchesters or Remingtons or Kimbers of Oregon or Dakotas, Coopers, etc have you or anyone else on this forum purchased in the last 10 years, left them new in the box, and put them in your safe? Or what about just an odd caliber that has seen some use, maybe a Clackamas made Kimber in 222 Remington that someone says I better hang on to this. I bet the answer is not many. My point being of course we can't say it never happens because it does, just not very often. But in 50 years, some of those are going to be worth a good deal of money compared to what was paid for them today. Years ago Winchesters were being hunted and shot with, that's foremost. Some went on a single trip never to be used again, and some, and I mean very few, were left new in the box or new in the crate for whatever reason. The math is so simple really.

I think our definition of utilitarian is not the same. I consider it a cheaper gun that one buys when they don't really care about guns and just need something to go kill a deer with. Kind of like a Savage 110.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more Kimbers of Oregon in odd calibers either NIB or 99% than under 95%. They would make a new caliber every week it seemed and you could reserve the same serial number in each new caliber, I even got sucked into it for 6 or 7 rifles then realized they would never stop making different calibers and I'd go broke buying everyone! I sold the entire collection and I think a lot of people bought a lot of these rifles only to stack them up in saves.

The "collector" mindset is much different today than it was 50 or 60 years ago....

My Winchester friend, when I get a pre 64 home I put on a gunsmith visor over my getting old eyes and walk out in the bright SW GA sun ! Trust me when I tell you I can see all then, very rare do I have to pull that round extra magnifier over the right eye and look any further to spot a counterfeit ! I think I had one and I packed that SOB right up and with glee paid shipping back to where it came from, the guy that sold me the gun was as shocked as he could be and tried to send me the shipping cost back, I would not take his shipping money back nor would not let him send me the gun money back! I bought another gun from him that cost even more and it was good to go to the max! very best winpoor

RM. Mine is a later model 1954. I think it's a "cleanup" rifle or maybe a total fake!
No seriously I'm pretty sure it's the real deal.

Anyone see the SG carbine in 7MM on Gun Broker? Only $16,300. Another one that is suspect at least to me.

Lots and lots of rare and new in box stuff coming up this April at Rock Island Auction.
I think some of these may even be the same rifles being offered on GB but I could be mistaken.

The big hang up for me is wood that's been "cleaned up". And as much as I love old Winnies, the DuCo laquer wood finish used at the time was not the best. I've got a 270 SG in the box and it has dust nibs and minor sanding scratches in the stock. The finish is so soft that how they've been wiped or cleaned over the years can change what the wood looks like. They get shinier with age and wiping so for me I look for that. The finish on the repro stock on GB wouldn't fool a serious collector.

I have the same problem with the original finish on the Model 70's. The finish is really fragile. I just got done refinishing a .243 FWT and it looks superb. A friend of mine in Montana told me that a lot of the Super Grades were updated from plain Model 70's. The percentage is big and it is real. He bought from his estate numerous pieces that were bought from Win. to upgrade the Model 70's.