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I have 2 458wm's and I'm buying a 3rd custom number 1 ruger. I love this caliber. Reloading to 45/70 levels is simple & easy on my shoulder.
Anyone else love this caliber?
Anyone hunting hogs with this?
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Yep. I've used 500gn hard cast lead projectiles at 1,600fp on pigs. Unless they hit bone, the projectile will exit, but it still does a number on them. Feels like I'm firing a 308.
I have another load with a 405gn hard cast lead projectile using Trailboss at 1,000fps ie sub-sonic. I haven't tried it on pigs yet. I have used it on rabbits though because it's quiet and accurate and it was the only rifle I had with me at the time.
I haven't gotten around to using reduced loads with jacketed projectiles yet. Standard loads with 400gn jacketed projectiles are somewhat excessive for pigs.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Although there are a few notable gun writers who write disparagingly of it, ( although admitting having no personal experience with it ), a majority of African PH's still love it and the more I play around with other big bores the more I appreciate the standard 458. With modern powders it easily reaches the 2150fps with a 500 gr bullet, which Jack Lott stated was all that was needed and what he was looking for with his creation.
And with cast bullets it can be loaded to slow 45-70 ballistics and makes pleasant plinker and great whitetail hunting round.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I have 2 and like them both but it is far from my favorite African caliber. Guess that honor would be shared equally by the 375H&H and the 416Rigby. Actually have never taken a 458WinMag to Africa though I would not hesitate to do so with confidence.
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famous names in Africa, including John Kingsley-Heath, Richard Harland, Harry Selby, Mike LaGrange and Finn Aagaard all spoke glowingly of the 458. Between them Richard Harland and Mike LaGrange killed over 10,000 elephants! and both claimed they preferred the 458 Win.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I love my .458WM ! I've hunted hogs with it, but have yet to kill one with it. I have shot everything from 500gr Hornady solids down to 300gr cast bullets in mine. I haven't shot an elephant. Yet. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Yep, I love my .458 too, it's easily my favorite caliber. I'm taking mine to Tasmania in a months time to hunt fallow deer with it. Am loading a 250gr copper hollow point @2900fps and I'll keep you posted on how it goes.. I know it's not an elephant but our fallow get pretty big...
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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Doc D, ya best go to tghe Australia Forum and go back a bit. The boys from the land of OZ appear to try making anti-tank guns out of some hunting rifles. Good guys but a tad on the nutz side
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
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The .458 is a popular sambar rifle in Oz because these stags live in heavily treed mountain ranges with lots of fern and brush filled gullies. Sambar have a reputation for not dropping at the shot so a blood trail is helpful if you get the chance for a shot.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Doc D, ya best go to tghe Australia Forum and go back a bit. The boys from the land of OZ appear to try making anti-tank guns out of some hunting rifles. Good guys but a tad on the nutz side Yep that's how we roll...
You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life...
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I had an Ruger M77 .458 at one time. I swear on my children I shot through a 24" thick oak tree with a 500gn Brass turned Barnes solid. My buddies were speechless. It was one of the most accurate rifles I ever owned. My one friend suggested I used it as my varmint rifle. it would stack 350 Hornady's at 100 yds. That is the one rifle I truly wish I never would have never got rid of.
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I have 2 458wm's and I'm buying a 3rd custom number 1 ruger. I love this caliber. Reloading to 45/70 levels is simple & easy on my shoulder.
This is really the best feature of the Win Mag. The reloading options with great variety of bullets. It properly fits a standard action and there are a lot of used guns available for reasonable cost. Loving it is fair enough, but; please dont jump in and say it is 'better' than something else for some other purpose. Or that when nothing better was available it got the job done. The 30/30 Model 94 is a great gun. I hunt with it, I 'love' it. It is loosing popularity. Why? Maybe great and successful as it is- is no longer 'best' choice cartridge for a new buyer. And no history of near death experiences to taint its legacy.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The 30/30 was and is a great saddle gun in a 20" lever action. Few hunt that was today.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I never had a saddle and it is still a great woods rifle. Light to carry all day, fast handling for iron sited use hard to beat. But it is what it is and it is not a scoped 7mm in short light synthetic wonder.
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I love it. I wouldn't hesitate to take it to Africa. BUT my Double 500 nitro would get the nod.
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I have 2, a Model 70 and a custom built on a P14 action. Love them both. Probably will end up selling one but I'm having a pile of fun deciding which one.
BORN to HUNT
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Fox....... I like the Model 70 because it is relatively short and maneuverable in brush.
John
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The first 458 M70's I saw were factory 22 inch barrels and push feed. Since then, I though they were all 24 inch. I never though of a 24 inch bolt gun as "relatively short". Then who can afford a double, got short? Any bolt rifle can be cut shorter( maybe 21" even) not really specific to a M70 or the caliber.
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Clarification...... I have owned many Model 70's and all were and are pushfeed 22 incher's.
The performance and accuracy I have experienced is unchallengeable so I never swapped out for claw extraction.
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I had an Ruger M77 .458 at one time. I swear on my children I shot through a 24" thick oak tree with a 500gn. I have also done that. It's a good cartridge.
Retired cat herder.
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I used to shoot through 20" pine trees using the old 400gn Barnes X loaded to 2400fps.
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I have taken my .458 to Africa with good results. The opinion that you can't get decent velocities without excessive powder compression is simply an old wife's tale. It's no trick to get 2200 fps with a 500 grain bullet and a 22" barrel. The Lott only gets 70 fps more at the same pressures.
As for versatility, you can load 350 grain Barnes bullets to 2700 fps with no pressure signs at all. That's like a 30-06 on steroids. According to the computer, it hits with 3000 foot pounds at 300 yards. I'd like to take an elk or a bear with that load.
Unfortunately, the 500 and 350 grain loads will not group to the same elevation at 100 yards unless you lower the 350 grain muzzle velocity to about 2350 fps, which means you don't want to take both on the same hunt.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Yep - 458 Winchester Mag for me, too! (w/ good iron sights): I prefer the 450 grain bullets: Got both shooting to the same POA at 50 yards. With that front hood and rear sight adjustments - ITS RIGHT ON.
Last edited by RaySendero; 05/01/15.
Ray
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Try some Barnes X ,45/70 bullets in your .458 and watch some bloody big holes take the wind out of everything you shoot. The pointy version for the .458 is very good too, and has a point blank range of 248 yards even with mid loads.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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"Did I mention, I REALLY LIKE GUNS?"
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Although the 458 was branded with a bad reputation due to a number of intentionally misleading articles written by high profile dilettante/writer/journalists, It retains a solid reputation in Africa and Alaska by those who actually give it a fair trial. After one noted writer wrote a scathing piece about it, while glowing about the virtues of the old African rounds, I decided to do a comparison. Using alternating stacks of wet and dry magazines I fired a 404 Jeffery with a 400 grain Swift bullet at over 2200fps into the stack and then a Hornady factory 458 with 500 gr Interlock bullets from my 20" bbl rifle. As you can see from the photo of both recovered bullets resting by their respective holes. This is the last magazine (18 inches of penetration) where the 404 came to rest and the hole on the right shows the additional damage where the 458 continued on for another 6 inches. 25% more.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Although the 458 was branded with a bad reputation due to a number of intentionally misleading articles written by high profile dilettante/writer/journalists, It retains a solid reputation in Africa and Alaska by those who actually give it a fair trial. After one noted writer wrote a scathing piece about it, while glowing about the virtues of the old African rounds, I decided to do a comparison. Using alternating stacks of wet and dry magazines I fired a 404 Jeffery with a 400 grain Swift bullet at over 2200fps into the stack and then a Hornady factory 458 with 500 gr Interlock bullets from my 20" bbl rifle. As you can see from the photo of both recovered bullets resting by their respective holes. This is the last magazine (18 inches of penetration) where the 404 came to rest and the hole on the right shows the additional damage where the 458 continued on for another 6 inches. 25% more. Phil,,I showed this picture to my wife and she ordered me to take my mountains of magazines outside and shoot them! Maybe the fishing one's 1st though.
I tend to use more than enough gun
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tell her they either make a lot of confetti in the yard if they are dry or else they turn into paper mache and become almost impossible to burn when wet. Otherwise you can make some interesting test material with them.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I recently worked a little with my .458 #1, which I inherited from Dad. I had not shot it in many moons, so ordered up a NECG aperture rear sight, and a 3/32" red fiber optic front from them as well. The rolled some loads with 500gr Hornady soft points and fistfulls (well, okay 70 grains, actually) of Varget. I guesstimated the height on the new front sight, and all the settings. At 50 yards offhand I put 4 into a six inch circle, no problem. I thanked my lucky stars, and stuck it back in the case
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Kind of makes you think a lott or not.grin
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My second "real" rifle was a 458 M70 pusher. I was boy at the time in Alaska and shot a ton of animals with it. I loved that rifle and shot my longest shot on a black bear that was 3/4 upright on a a fallen tree. I also crumpled a black bear that immediately charged me after messing up a shot and raking him through the guts. I really favor 500 grain bullets, which can be used on anything out to 200 or so yards. You would really only be limited by trajectory. Most 500 grain bullets have a very obtuse RN and make decent wounds at low velo. When you could get them to reload, I liked the old win 510 soft points. I find the debate with the 458 win and 458 Lott funny. Both are great cartridges but also nearly identical not only ballisticlly but certainly categorically. People were ecstatic when the Lott came out but lately it has been suggested that it was never needed. As shooters we should never rationalize the existence of a cartridge, only our unreasonable purchases .
Last edited by smallfry; 05/09/15.
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.....
And with cast bullets it can be loaded to slow 45-70 ballistics and makes pleasant plinker and great whitetail hunting round. I think there would be a great many more 458 win rifles sold is there were more people with experience handloading the 458 win with the lighter bullet weights at moderate velocities. I purchased a remington custom shop 458 win mag rifle for about 2/3rds of what the original; owner paid and got a box of factory winchester ammo with 500 grain bullets and an empty 20 cases, which I was assured was the full extent of its previous use as the original owner decided its recoil was FAR higher than he could tolerate! loaded with a 360 grain cast bullet over 60 grains of RL7 its a totally different gun. and will still kill anything in north America that you hit correctly, and that 360 grain bullets most likely going at only about 2200fps
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What's your favorite "lite kick" load?
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300gn Barnes X bullets made for the .45/70 are terrific candidates if you like light loads.
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Found this..... Check out this video on YouTube: http://youtu.be/nvJXWqqwIpc
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My 458 probably gets used as much as most of my other rifles thanks to to the fact that I have a bunch of boolit moulds for the 45-70s. Its an older BSA, wears a 3X Leupold in rings supplied by non other than our own 458 Win.. Thanks Phil ! So far it has accounted for a couple Moose, a nice Mulie Buck and a small boar Grizz. The Grizzly Bear was taken with a 600 gr. Barnes Original @ 60 yds., dropping him instantly and fracturing my collar bone simultaneously. It has that integral muzzle brake as made by BSA, but there are times when I just have to question its effectiveness. All in all, its a fine little rifle to carry at 8 lbs. scoped.
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Are you saying the recoil broke your colarbone?
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No, The bear and I surprised each other and I didn't have the rifle shouldered properly. He was moving pretty fast directly toward me and I really didn't want him to get much closer..
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I have one built on a Custom '98 and it is amazing . I shoot Groundhogs and Whitetails with 350gr Hornady RN !
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I was offered a ridiculous amount of money for mine during the Winchester closure and had a chance to buy it back recently for a bargain so it will stay where it belongs now. I have had a lot of them and really like the cartridge.
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I used mine a fair amount, right around 180 animals. Of those 125 were my buffalo, maybe 15 more of finishing off other peoples wounded buff and most of the rest were pigs.
I did a fair amount of experimenting with different bullets, plus velocties from "standard" to some that would give many Lott loads a run for their money. A2230 is great stuff. I have no doubt that the faster loads hit buffalo harder than the slow ones, just as I don't doubt that the close animals got hit harder than the farther ones. The trouble with the .458 is that just when I get things interesting I run up against case capacity/heavy compaction issues. 2350 fps with a 450 grain A-Frame is a great load, but the powder is so compacted that it pushes the bullet back out of the case if they sit too long. So do many book loads for that matter. 350 grain TSXs at 2600+ are interesting too. I eventually rechambered to .458 Lott, as much for duplicating my enthusiastic loads without compaction (and with many different powders) as for further increases in velocity. There's always a hard way and an easy way, and on balance the Lott is the easy way.
Last edited by Model70Guy; 08/03/15.
Life begins at 40. Recoil begins at "Over 40" Coincidence? I don't think so.
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I love the 458. I loaded some reasonably warm loads using a 350 grain Hornady RN and killed a hog and a deer with it. It worked great and kicked a LOT less than full house 500 grain loads!
I finally stopped using it because I got tired of lugging a rifle that heavy around and switched to a 6 lb 308. But if I every have to chase pachyderms out of the petunias, I've got the rifle for the job.
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Haven't read thru the thread, but yes, I love mine. MK X Mauser. I've had a Lott and a 460..458 win with modern powder will do just fine..I feel the same with the old 45 Colt. Used to its potential in the modern age its as good as anything.
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This thread may be an opportunity to discuss the versatility both fun and practical of the 458 win. There is no reason to get defensive or insecure regarding the win mag. Nor does is have to be as good as or better than a Lott or 45/70. I happen own, shoot and like all three. There is a lot of overlap, but they are not the same.
It is a great heavy North American hunting round and since it is a 458 diameter there are many reloading options.
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yes I do just like it.Kawi
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I had an Ruger M77 .458 at one time. I swear on my children I shot through a 24" thick oak tree with a 500gn Brass turned Barnes solid. My buddies were speechless. It was one of the most accurate rifles I ever owned. My one friend suggested I used it as my varmint rifle. it would stack 350 Hornady's at 100 yds. That is the one rifle I truly wish I never would have never got rid of. I had a utility grade custom built on a CZ24 with a boyds laminated stock and a Adams and Bennett barrel from Midway that would shoot under an inch whenever the shooter could with 500s or 405 remingtons, loaded with 748. Fed awesome and was always consistent. I traded it because here on the prairie in N. E. wyoming it was too heavy to lug around the mountains and not needed on antelope! I keep track of where it is though In case I want it back!
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Anyone got a good 405gr hard cast recipe around 1500fps for the 458wm?
Perhaps with IMR3031??
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I am a bit surprised that the .458 loaded with 350 TSX's isn't commented more.
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I see no need in downloading a cartridge, useless in having it if not loaded to full potential. If you can't handle it for what it is, then why have it. Just like the managed recoil ammo, or better yet buying a camaro or a mustang with a V6.
Fück Joe byron
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Reduced loads are great and is really a different branch of reloading as is cast bullet shooting. Leaving squib loads aside for a moment, the best reduced loads come with a powder that is one or two burning rates faster than used for full powder. So in a 300 Win or 270 Win then powders like Varget, 4064, 3031.
Such powders will (in 300 Win) duplicate 30/06 maximum loads but with lower pressure. As a bonus reduced loads often give the top accuracy and with great consistency. They also have that same sort of feeling you get toddling around I a big V8 manual compared to the little 4 cylinder in manual. In the case of big kickers, say from 375 H& and up the reduced loads allow you to shoot the rifle for lots of shots. Another advantage of using a bigger case, say 270 Wby as compared to 270 Win, is there are countless loads you can use in the 270 Wby that will duplicate max 270 Win ballistics. If the goal is to get at least 3100 f/s with a 130 grain 270 projectile and top accuracy I can guarantee you that with the 270 Wby (or 7mm Rem etc.) my chances are better than using a 270 Winchester. I simply have a much greater variety of powders to use and charge weights to use.
In addition brass and barrel life is better with say a 270 Wby loaded to equal 270 Win when the 270 Win is at maximum.
If I wanted the performance of a 25/06 then I would get a 257 Wby or 25/300 Win. The 22/243 equals maxed out 22/250 ballistics and the 22/243 is just idling.
For reasons which I can’t explain when loading back the muzzle blast is not as severe or sharp as the smaller case loaded to maximum. For example, the 378 Wby with 85 grains of Varget or 4064 usually gets 2600 plus with 270 grainers and very low pressure. But the blast is “softer” than the H&H loaded flat out.
I often get a laugh from posters who are trying to get 2500-2600 with 300 grain 375 H&H and are juggling powders and bullet type. One combo gets the velocity but not the accuracy or another combo gets the accuracy but not the velocity. How much easier is a 375 RUM/378 Wby to get the velocity/accuracy combination.
I could go on and on but you get the idea.
One thing I would add is when developing reduced loads it is a big advantage if you can reload at the range or wherever you are shooting.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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458 Lott is what the 458 WM should have been from the start. 45-70 is much better for deer.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 704
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 704 |
458 Lott is what the 458 WM should have been from the start. 45-70 is much better for deer. From the practicalities of shooting deer in America I am sure you are correct. However, for the shooter who is a bit of guns/ammo nut the 458 offers potential bolt action accuracy and will duplicate 45/70 loads at any level with ease and great accuracy, assuming of course the rifle itself is accurate.
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 219
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 219 |
Had a Ruger 77 in 458 Win Mag and loved it. Hand loaded for it and used 300 and 350 grain bullets on smallish Georgia whitetail. The ONLY negative was the rifle's weight with it's steel Weaver K2.5X scope. It came with a box of 500 solids and 13 were unfired. I'm glad the rifle had every ounce of weight when I shot THOSE rounds. I never found a tree the 500s wouldn't penetrate. After selling it I built a 458x2" American on a short action Ruger 77 Mark II. Both very useful rifles.
Last edited by Alaninga; 10/20/15.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,270
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,270 |
Reduced loads are great and is really a different branch of reloading as is cast bullet shooting. Leaving squib loads aside for a moment, the best reduced loads come with a powder that is one or two burning rates faster than used for full powder. So in a 300 Win or 270 Win then powders like Varget, 4064, 3031.
Such powders will (in 300 Win) duplicate 30/06 maximum loads but with lower pressure. As a bonus reduced loads often give the top accuracy and with great consistency. They also have that same sort of feeling you get toddling around I a big V8 manual compared to the little 4 cylinder in manual. In the case of big kickers, say from 375 H& and up the reduced loads allow you to shoot the rifle for lots of shots. Another advantage of using a bigger case, say 270 Wby as compared to 270 Win, is there are countless loads you can use in the 270 Wby that will duplicate max 270 Win ballistics. If the goal is to get at least 3100 f/s with a 130 grain 270 projectile and top accuracy I can guarantee you that with the 270 Wby (or 7mm Rem etc.) my chances are better than using a 270 Winchester. I simply have a much greater variety of powders to use and charge weights to use.
In addition brass and barrel life is better with say a 270 Wby loaded to equal 270 Win when the 270 Win is at maximum.
If I wanted the performance of a 25/06 then I would get a 257 Wby or 25/300 Win. The 22/243 equals maxed out 22/250 ballistics and the 22/243 is just idling.
For reasons which I can’t explain when loading back the muzzle blast is not as severe or sharp as the smaller case loaded to maximum. For example, the 378 Wby with 85 grains of Varget or 4064 usually gets 2600 plus with 270 grainers and very low pressure. But the blast is “softer” than the H&H loaded flat out.
I often get a laugh from posters who are trying to get 2500-2600 with 300 grain 375 H&H and are juggling powders and bullet type. One combo gets the velocity but not the accuracy or another combo gets the accuracy but not the velocity. How much easier is a 375 RUM/378 Wby to get the velocity/accuracy combination.
I could go on and on but you get the idea.
One thing I would add is when developing reduced loads it is a big advantage if you can reload at the range or wherever you are shooting. My reloading experience is minimal, but this sure seems to make a lot of sense!
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,337
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,337 |
Yes I Do..Just me on that.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 415
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 415 |
What would you recommend as the way to build a lefty 458 without taking out a second mortgage?
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 629
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 629 |
Zastava 458 win mag your base is already started.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 415
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 415 |
Are they still available? I'd just need to rebarrel/restock to suit?
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 415
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 415 |
The toughest part seems to be finding a lefty Zastava to start with
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