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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC


Consider if you knew you had to use one of them, we'll narrow it down to 45acp only, the G21 and a 1911,...and it was coming straight out of the box. No break-in period, no getting to try ammo beforehand, only the mags that came with it, etc... I really have no doubts about the G21 being good to go.


I won't argue with that..............

MM


Depends whose box the 1911 came in wink


Exactly, 458Lott


Then again, I really can't see trusting one's life to any handgun without firing at least 100 rounds through it, better yet 500. Anything man made can and will fail, no matter how thorough the QA/QC. You simply can't shortcut function testing to find items that were missed by QA/QC or items that passed QA/QC but fail early in the life of a product because that's the nature of mass produced goods.

If you find a handgun that you shoot well, you understand how to operate it, and you've shot it enough to be assured of it's reliability, then good for you.

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I've run an RIA 1911 .45ACP for a couple thousand rounds, without cleaning. No FTF, no FTE, no misfires.

Sold it.

I still run a Colt 1911. God only knows how many rounds have been through it, as it came to me well used but not abused. I've run well more than a thousand through it, and again no FTE, no FTF, no misfires.

I've run Glocks (had one ka-boom, but that was a reload), and like them quite a bit.

I trust my BHP implicitly as well.

The problem with most firearms is the operator. Fix that f'k up, and 95% of the rest takes care of itself.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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I would bet money that 99% of Glock "kabooms" are ammo related. As in some dumbass that ought not to be reloading ammo.

That being said, I'm 100% confident in my two main CCW handguns. One is my Kimber Custom Shop Super Pro 1911 Lightweight Commander in 45acp and the other being my Glock 32 in .357 sig. I've fired thousands of rounds in both without a single hiccup.


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The kaboom was due to it being a 10mm, the round being last in a 15 magazine, the bullet slipping the crimp, and possibly a failure of the case.

I've seen Ka-booms in .40S&W Glocks with factory ammo. They happen.



Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by UPhiker
Originally Posted by RJM

As to general feeding reliability haven't had any major problems with any of my guns. There are some bullet designs that cause feeding problems in some guns but once you find a load that a 1911 likes it is no more or less reliable than a Glock...

Bob
There's the problem with 1911's right there.
It's those little problems that drive you crazy and you have to spend too much time and money to find out what the gun likes.


I have double digit numbers of 1911's (& 5 Glocks too wink ) & with the exception of the latest addition, (an off-the-shelf, untuned, untouched Ruger which has not been shot enough to demonstrate it's nature) every single last one of them shoots whatever is put into the magazines, any day, every day, all day, assuming it's a load that is strong enough to function the particular setup on that gun.

No ifs, no ands, no buts.

I'm not interested in whether the gun(s) will run 5,000 rounds between cleanings........If any of them are used in a gunfight, the round count might reach double digits, maybe. If it does, I'm going to be wishing for some kind of a long gun.

So if a 1911, (or any other carry gun) can make 100 straight rounds without a hiccup, each & every time its used, it's more than adequate for SD & carrying.

There's a difference between reliability & torture test durability between cleanings.

My 1911's that expect to get carried & potentially get used in any serious social intercourse function are kept clean.......& the ones that aren't 1911's are also kept clean.

But clean is a also a relative word.............all but super, super tight match fitted 1911's will still run with some level of contamination or dirt; granted a Glock will likely tolerate more in an absolute sense. If that spins your prop, don't talk about 1911's; just go get a Glock & live happily ever after, as you likely would not be happy with a 1911 anyway.

So, a PROPERLY built & tuned 1911 doesn't really have any "weaknesses" in that sense but lots of folks with limited experience like to discuss those "weaknesses" anyway.

My guns & their capabilities may not be representative of everyman's 1911's but they demonstrate what a 1911 is capable of being & that's all I really care about. What happens to JackSchitt with his Trimber crappily built, untuned 1911 in bumfuckedEgypt doesn't concern me or alter my thinking one IOTA.

As for the magazine capacity, a 1911 will always have more that a revolver. smile

MM
If anyone had any sense at all, the whole discussion would have ended here. Well done sir.


except i don't think he is totally correct on the revolver thing.


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Originally Posted by RoninPhx
except i don't think he is totally correct on the revolver thing.
My LW Commander can hold 8+1...you have a revolver in a viable defensive cartridge that can hold more than that? And I'm assuming a non-apples to apples comparison. .45 vs .357.

If we went with the closer comparison of .38 Super vs .357 it would be 10+1 vs the 8 for the highest capacity revolver in a viable defensive cartridge I'm aware of.

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Originally Posted by GunGeek
Originally Posted by RoninPhx
except i don't think he is totally correct on the revolver thing.
My LW Commander can hold 8+1...you have a revolver in a viable defensive cartridge that can hold more than that? And I'm assuming a non-apples to apples comparison. .45 vs .357.

If we went with the closer comparison of .38 Super vs .357 it would be 10+1 vs the 8 for the highest capacity revolver in a viable defensive cartridge I'm aware of.


read again, he was not talking about +1, but mag capacity.

s for the magazine capacity, a 1911 will always have more that a revolver. and 1911 is a generic term, he didn't say anything about a super.


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Originally Posted by JOG
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
When people have a "soul-less" plastic gun that won't function I always recommend they try a new magazine. A magazine with bullets in it.


Up to a few years ago Glock has had nine variations of magazines. I no longer keep track. Not all, say, Glock 19 magazines work with all Glock 19s.
No, Glock doesn't have that many different magazines. They have several different followers. How many different followers do 1911 magazines have?

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weakness...can't stop buying them...
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The genius (intentional or not) to the flexible polymer frame, is that it, well...flexes. You have in essence, looser tolerances available during cycling, yet with a bit of memory to return the gun to a close tolerance status for firing. Hence, you have very decent accuracy, and the advantage of reliability and lighter weight.

The 1911 and its iterations, rely on looser tolerances for optimum reliability, or tighter tolerances for optimum accuracy. Still, since the main accuracy comes from the barrel to buffer and buffer to slide fits, one can have very good accuracy, with a very reasonably reliable pistol. Few come from the factory this way.

I've seldom had a "new" in the box Colt 1911 of variant, that was dead on reliable from the start, with the exception of a 1980s vintage Officer's Model that simply would not jam, even with hollow points. The rest, needed a bit of tweaking, but were made to be perfectly reliable.

So, the 1911 has weaknesses. But it's simply well worth the effort to get one to the point of total reliability. It's a personal choice. For me, I'd spend twice as much on a 1911 or a variant than I would on a Glock, not because they are more reliable or more accurate, but because they are more appealing to this old man.


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Originally Posted by Dan Chamberlain
one can have very good accuracy, with a very reasonably reliable pistol. Few come from the factory this way.



More than you think, I think............depends on which "factory". smile

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I love my 1911's and I also love my Glock's and my opinion if you can call this a weakness, is that most or all 1911's that i would stake my life on require a lot more work to function 99% of the time and this will cost twice the price of a Glock 19,23 or 32 . You can buy any of the above Model Glock's and out of the box it will run 100%


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Originally Posted by bea175
I love my 1911's and I also love my Glock's and my opinion if you can call this a weakness, is that most or all 1911's that i would stake my life on require a lot more work to function 99% of the time and this will cost twice the price of a Glock 19,23 or 32 . You can buy any of the above Model Glock's and out of the box it will run 100%


Usually... but then if it is "usually" that isn't 100%. I've seen Glock pistols with small part breakages and the occasional choke and puke. I ran herd over a couple dozen Gen II G22 pistols for several years and saw extractors break, front sights disappear, ect. We shot Federal American Eagle 180 gr. practice ammo which was generally pretty good stuff and on the odd occasion here and there a gun would malfunction in one way or another. Sometimes that was an ammo or shooter problem but once in awhile it couldn't be explained, it just happened. Nothing mechanical is "perfection" really though modern good quality pistols are pretty darned close given a decent chance. My money would be on a G17 or 19 for dead nuts reliability in the Glock line up.


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I have never had a malfunction with my Glocks in 357 Sig , 40 S&W, 45 ACP or 9mm but lost a ejector and the case separated in the middle with the Glock 20 10mm, this only happened one time with factory ammo when on the Campfire Boar Hunt the pistol belonged to CrimsonTide at the time. Replaced the ejector and changed recoil spring from factory to 24 lb never had a problem since. Some 10 mm factory ammo is load really hot in the 10mm and requires a stronger recoil spring that factory..


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Still waiting for my SR1911 to have even one malfunction. Ball, HP, SWC.....it eats it all. Didn't have any gunsmithing done. Didn't change out any parts for function (grips & trigger only, and just for preference). Way less than $1000 into it. Works with Colt-spec mags and with wadcutter mags. More accurate in my hands than any Glock I've tried.

If one manufacturer can get it right for such a moderate price, there isn't anything wrong with the design.


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If 1911's are so unreliable, why are they still the best selling pistol in America? Tradition only gets you so far, at some point someone is going to want their gun to work.

I'm betting that most 1911's work quite well right out of the box and are sufficiently reliable for most shooters.

If you're going to push a 1911 really hard, then you're going to need to do some work on that 1911.

I don't know what my 1911's will do if I were to push 1,000 rounds per day through them, I just don't shoot that much anymore. But I know that I'll never shoot 1,000 rounds in combat, so it's really a moot point, and a training convenience.

If I were going to war, I probably wouldn't take a 1911 with me. But for daily carry, it's more than sufficient.

I also happen to agree with Dan, 1911's are more reliable when the tolerances are looser. But people won't buy a rattling 1911 anymore, so the market has demanded those tolerances be tighter and it has had an effect on reliability.

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Originally Posted by rifle
weakness...can't stop buying them...
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]




I have this same weakness.




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Originally Posted by rifle
[Linked Image]


I'm gonna start taking pictures of all the malfunctioned 1911s with shooters staring at them wondering what went wrong.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by GunGeek
If 1911's are so unreliable, why are they still the best selling pistol in America?
1-Got a source for that? 2-If so, it's because people are with A-Stupid or B-Have terrible taste.

Tradition only gets you so far, at some point someone is going to want their gun to work.
I don't think the majority of shooters really care if their pistol is reliable. I know lots of guys that would be perfectly content with a malfunction every 100 rounds.

I'm betting that most 1911's work quite well right out of the box and are sufficiently reliable for most shooters.
I'm sure they are too. Because "most shooters" buy a gun and stick in in their sock drawer. They're probably only shot 300 rounds a year, max, and probably never see a whole case of ammo.

If you're going to push a 1911 really hard, then you're going to need to do some work on that 1911.
What's "really hard"?

I don't know what my 1911's will do if I were to push 1,000 rounds per day through them, I just don't shoot that much anymore. But I know that I'll never shoot 1,000 rounds in combat, so it's really a moot point, and a training convenience.
You've said that before and it's stupid. "I only carry 16 rounds with me, so it only has to be reliable for 16 rounds...." That's retarded. If you were taking your family on a 2000 mile road trip would you drive a car that only breaks down every 3000 miles?

If I were going to war, I probably wouldn't take a 1911 with me. But for daily carry, it's more than sufficient.

I also happen to agree with Dan, 1911's are more reliable when the tolerances are looser. But people won't buy a rattling 1911 anymore, so the market has demanded those tolerances be tighter and it has had an effect on reliability.
So are they reliable or not?


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by GunGeek
If 1911's are so unreliable, why are they still the best selling pistol in America?
1-Got a source for that? 2-If so, it's because people are with A-Stupid or B-Have terrible taste.

Tradition only gets you so far, at some point someone is going to want their gun to work.
I don't think the majority of shooters really care if their pistol is reliable. I know lots of guys that would be perfectly content with a malfunction every 100 rounds.

I'm betting that most 1911's work quite well right out of the box and are sufficiently reliable for most shooters.
I'm sure they are too. Because "most shooters" buy a gun and stick in in their sock drawer. They're probably only shot 300 rounds a year, max, and probably never see a whole case of ammo.

If you're going to push a 1911 really hard, then you're going to need to do some work on that 1911.
What's "really hard"?

I don't know what my 1911's will do if I were to push 1,000 rounds per day through them, I just don't shoot that much anymore. But I know that I'll never shoot 1,000 rounds in combat, so it's really a moot point, and a training convenience.
You've said that before and it's stupid. "I only carry 16 rounds with me, so it only has to be reliable for 16 rounds...." That's retarded. If you were taking your family on a 2000 mile road trip would you drive a car that only breaks down every 3000 miles?

If I were going to war, I probably wouldn't take a 1911 with me. But for daily carry, it's more than sufficient.

I also happen to agree with Dan, 1911's are more reliable when the tolerances are looser. But people won't buy a rattling 1911 anymore, so the market has demanded those tolerances be tighter and it has had an effect on reliability.
So are they reliable or not?


You're an idiot

Last edited by GunGeek; 03/19/15. Reason: Typo - autocorrect is so helpful
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