Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting effectiveness of smaller calibers on north american game

The discussion here illustrates why Elmer Keith liked heavier bullets, both caliber and weight wise. Back "in the day" we're talking 30's into the 40s, when his book Big Game Hunting was covering, there were essentially NO decent bullets. Speer and Hornady didn't come along till the late 40s. Bullets had a habit of not penetrating, and Elmer's theory was, prepare for the worst. If you get a going away shot late in the day, and need to take it, especially if from the LEFT side of an animal, then the bullet needs to hold together well enough to go from the last rib back on the left side, THROUGH the paunch and into the heart lung area. Too many bullets in those days wouldn't. With the Ttsx and such, not as much of a problem anymore and ole Elmer might even decide the 06 good for something other than jackrabbits. I always looked at one of our horses and said, an elk about this big, would I REALLY feel comfortable shooting one with a 243 or something (NO). Different people take recoil differently. and stocking, etc. helps. A guy I know who hunts a lot, has a little wife, maybe 5'3" and not that big, and her basic rifle is a 340Wby. Condi, the woman who helped build Barnes bullets, is TINY, have met her, and she shoots a 338 for her hunting round. BUT, made FOR her, so probably fits and doesn't recoil as bad.

Back in the day when th 06 was king the 257 rob was concidered a pretty good elk cart. Along with the 300 savage... And 30/30--- now the 06 is concidered a min and you really need an ultra somthing..
You see elk are tougher than they used to be...

Back in the day hunters got closer.

Ive seen 4 elk killed with a friends dads 257 roberts and its lethal,in skilled hands, but I'd also point out that most of the successful hunters in years past knew how to hunt and seldom would attempt shots at the ranges I see guys quote frequently today. my friends dad killed all his elk well inside of 250 yards and he waited for a good shot angle before squeezing off a shot, if your going to use a smaller caliber pure physics, and the games anatomy, restricts you from expecting to get away with some of the shot angles you could effectively pull off successfully with a significantly heavier projectile, of larger caliber.
no matter how you try, you can,t get away using a 243 win or 257 roberts at the same extended,ranges and odd angles that a 280 rem,- 30/06-300 mag,-375 H%H loaded with heavy bullets can deal with,successfully.
used within a reasonable range and handled correctly with a well practiced shooter, Ive seen rather remarkable results , but those are still limitations that the shooter should be aware of, that are not quite as restrictive on its use as a larger caliber.
personally from the results Ive seen I think a 270 win loaded with a good 140-150 grain is where ID start as a good dependable ,low recoil,elk rifle.
my friends dad whos near 80 years old dropped a small bull within a few feet of where he spotted it , while shooting a 257 roberts loaded with 100 grain speer bullets, on bullet impact the bull trotted about 20 yards and then got wobbly and fell , the shot was easily 240 yards, or a bit more as it was 270 plus paces to the bull from where we stood. and he made the shot leaning over a branch on an aspen with his Winchester 70 and weave 4x scope.
he hit the bull in the near side lung and angled back into the liver
that was back in the 1990s and was the last bull he ever took.
that shot really impressed me, not so much as to accuracy but how such a small cartridge could be so effective, but Ive seen guys make similar shots with 7mm and 30 calibers that had elk run further.but Id point out the bullet failed to exit and did not travel in a strait line after impact,while it destroyed the heart and one lung it only penetrated about 2/3rds thru the elks chest and if it had not been a broadside shot it might not have worked nearly as well.,

No one said a youngster was to use a 300 mag, and the .410 reference was in respect to the difficulty of shooting it accurately and DUMMIES trying to get their kid introduced to hunting using one. The analogy is the same for introducing them to elk hunting using a smaller caliber firearm for which shot placement is more critical ( ie. accurately). That is pretty easy to understand ,unless you just want to argue about it ,which I don't

Thanks, but the main reason is the wife is now carrying my 7x57...... and the .300 win mag was found one a good deal.

P.S. we have a .243 in the cabinet and it will stay there for elk season.

I've killed elk with a range of bullets and calibers. smallest diameter was 243, lightest was a .25-06 90 grain HP Both bangflopped on the spot. heaviest bullets used have been 180 grain. on a generic soft point out of a 30-06, the other was my most recent elk and that was a 180 berger out of a 300 wby. that was a calf and at 447 yards it took 30 seconds to fall over, 2 shots and the first one was in the heart.
the furthest elk I ever took was with a 243 at 585 yards. that was an old cow and she piled up at the shot. biggest elk rodeo I've seen was with a 7mm rem mag and shot placement was great for all 4 of them.

I've seen way more people screw up because they used too much gun. of course it could never happen to anyone here. I'd say that of the hunters I've met 10% of them could handle a magnum and really make it shine. the rest figured they better have as much gun as they could carry because of that "iffy" shot they might have to take. none of them will tell you it's because they will likely mess up the first shot cause they are scared of the recoil and have to be prepared for anything on a wounded animal. because when you boil it down, that is VERY often the case.

Some good points and well stated ideas here. But in my book if you can't put the bullet where it's supposed to go you better develop your abilities some more before you hunt, don't rely on a set of ballistics to win the day for you. Wonder bullets or ordinary ones you still have to be able to shoot well from field positions using any cartridge. I have a couple of 243's don't ever seeing my self using them or my 257/25-06 on elk as I have outfits more suited to that job. Elk should not have to suffer for someone's lack of competence large caliber or small. As to the OP's question, yeah better bullets for all calibers are made today but why use a marginal caliber period? Magnum Man

so what or who defines "marginal"?

to me a .223 is marginal for elk. to others it may be a .270
I prefer adequate, each hunter should pick what they think is adequate for what they are hunting.

No, but the guys who write articles about "elk cartridges" sure are. As are the guys selling rifles in gun shops. They're the ones with the real skinny.

Lots of good points here, not much that I'd want to argue with.

The only thing I'd possibly add, because I'm not sure it has been covered yet, is something along the lines of the following.

To me, a big part of hunting is my ethics & moral standards.

So, my question would be along the lines of; should a novice hunter/shooter even be considering hunting Elk, with any caliber ?

Ive started at least 7 guys in our elk hunting group out ,who expressed interest,and who are now enthusiastic members, by first getting them efficient and comfortable at shooting from field positions , and getting them involved in the planing and conversations, then guiding and tutoring them on their first few hunts out west.
I think if theres interest it should be encouraged and mentored & tutored thats how my mentors felt 45 years ago, and it sure awoke a desire (obsession)

I would say hell ya'. To me elk are not as bullet proof as many would like to think. Can they be tough? Sure, but I've also seen antelope go miles after bad hits.

Everybody always just lumps elk together, but a yearling spike/cow is a whole different deal than a mature bull IMO. Elk hunting is not the same everywhere. I wouldn't hunt my 13 year old daughter where I typically hunt, there are other areas that give her a better chance of a more controlled patient shot.

I've seen some pretty accomplished hunters come completely unglued on elk.

I'll chime in on that one. I've taken 5 young men on their first elk hunts.
I think at a certain point in one's hunting path you have an obligation to pay it forward and give something back to the young generation.
Luckily I've never had issues with the young men I've taken taking long shots, bad shots, running shots, buck fever, or other risky practice for which they were not qualified. All were conservative with their shot selection - knock on wood.

With each novice hunter we practiced shooting positions, ranges, actually simulating hunting elk to the extent possible - not just bench shooting, at the range beforehand.

The other thing is having that difficult conversation with each of them before the hunt. It feels uncomfortable to lecture a grown man but you have to say something about - these are higher life forms, they are not rodents, not for your entertainment, you own that animals life when you pull the trigger, if it takes all night or 5 miles you bought it, or words to that effect.

Nicely handled by both of you !

It just so happens that I agree.

Never said I was against it, just wanted to add another thought provoking element, to the discussion.

Perfect !

I'm going to the basement now.

I just posted this on another thread, and truly believe in the sentiment.

Lots for you to catch up on.

Bought an hour & a half to go for me !

I'll be impatiently waiting.