Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting effectiveness of smaller calibers on north american game

I have taught quite a few youngsters elk hunting and several older gents. Everyone of them I was successful in them getting their first elk. A couple took a few years.

I think a great deal of the discussions on what bullets to use, calibers ranges etc. could be avoided or ignored if a good deal more time was spent discussing game anatomy,and correct precise shot placement from field positions.
the plain fact is a good many people can't hit squat from a rapidly acquired field position at even 100 yards let alone the 200-400 yards they claim most of the time!
I find the vast majority of guys I started out could shoot 2" or smaller 100 yard groups off a bench rest at the range , who felt very confident in their shooting ability's UNTIL I started placing 4 6" paper plates on a target backer, out at 100 yards and challenging them to assume a quick sitting or making an off hand shot or two,(their choice) in under 10 seconds time at the number (1-thru-4) posted on the plates, which is far closer to hunting than any bench rest will be.
those impressive bench rested groups sure go to hell quickly until they learn to use a rifle under field conditions

That's the same type of stuff we work on. Those are good drills.

You mean some hunting shots are actually taken like that?

In my younger days, when I was shooting NRA/CMP matches, I felt very comfortable taking any 100 yard shot off hand and any 200 yard shot was doable kneeling. Prone was never much use as grasses and brush were always in the way. Today and in the recent past that is not the case, and I don't practice at field positions although a 50-60 yard shot off hand at elk in the timber or such means elk in the freezer.

The very simple solution is carrying a good set of shooting sticks or making use of any natural rest you can find. The idea that there is never enough time to do that is pure BS, I bring home elk every year with these methods.

THANKS I NEEDED A GOOD HARD LAUGH!
I know all the cable shows have some guide looking through a spotting scope and telling the guided hunter to take his time while he makes a 600 yard shot from a rifle supported on a padded tri-pod ,out over a sage brush flat with all the time required and no trees in the way..... but in 45 years of hunting elk in the timber where Ive hunted , your far more likely to have spent two-to-four days hunting public land, a few miles down in some remote canyon, your either freezing your butt off or nearly exhausted from moving slowly and concentrating on every movement at the far edge of your visual range, and your slowly sneaking along some steep timbered drainage, moving intermittently, then standing and observing carefully without seeing a decent elk, when out at the edge of your vision you detect movement, a line a shape materialized through the timber out at 70-130 yards, you barely make out antlers as the elk stares in your direction,your heart beat doubles, you bring up the rifle ,you look for a branch to use to steady your carbines aim, and about that time a cow you just noticed gets nervous and the bull, starts to fidget,you now have 3-5 seconds ,if your lucky,to make up your mind, if the targets legal, if the range and angle is something you can work with, all while your finding theres a gap through the trees that will allow the shot, and you then get the rifle sights properly lined up and squeeze off the shot, as the elk decides the next drainage looks like a better location.!
the ELK whirls,too run as you squeeze off the shot, and your not 100% sure you connected, your heart beat doubles again, while your buddy assures you that your 340 wby, or 375 H&H did its job... you try to catch your breath, and your heartbeat and increased blood pressure is making you a bit dizzy, you put on the rifles safety without ejecting the empty case...you walk to the bullet impact site, as your buddy assures you the shot you made was great, and you find blood spray on the aspens or conifers..or on the snow, just past the elks former location.....WHERES THE TRACKS? WHERES THE ELK? ....the elk fell within two steps and slid 20 yards down the slope and is jammed up against some small trees, in the least accessible area you found in days....THATS MORE REALITY TO ME!
and the areas pictured below familiar




A 35 whelen slide action Remington with peep sights or a 2x/7x Leopold compact scope is a very popular choice with my friends

MY 375 H&H sakos claimed its share of ELK

My experience is nearly identical to 340mag.
In partial to thick cover I’ll spot a cow and she’ll see me at the same time. Almost always less than 100 yds. She’ll begin to move - slowly at first. Almost never do they bolt like a racehorse. More elk that were previously unseen will show movement. It all happens fast but that is plenty of time to set up for a short shot.

Target acquisition is a big deal.
The drill that I like.
Set up 2 targets at 100 yards. Have the shooter stand with rifle on shoulder as he would be coming upon these elk. Have the shooter get the gun off his shoulder and take whatever position he is comfortable with (but it has to be high enough to clear the low brush that you don’t get on a range). Shoot 1st target, cycle a cartridge, shoot 2nd target.

What we usually find is that if they choose to shoot offhand most struggle with marksmanship (* unless they are well practiced shooting offhand).

Getting the gun off their shoulder and getting into a sitting position takes about 1 second. Acquiring the target, checking backstop, antlers, gun position, animal position, safety, takes about another second (unless they have an astronomy power scope on their gun - then it takes longer). For most people this seems to be the drill that translates into success best on an actual hunt. Try to develop that motor-skills memory to make cycling a cartridge after a shot and reaquiring become 2nd nature. The reason for the 2nd target is that it forces the shooter into target acquisition a 2nd time.

(One of the worst habits brought from the range to the field is ignoring the animal after the 1st shot and looking down at the ground for the spent cartridge. That routine of looking down for the brass is just a bad habit that most everyone (me especially) seems to develop from range shooting).

People kill elk every year with a .243. That said, I’ve seen more elk wounded and lost after being shot with a .243 than possibly with all other cartridges combined. Full disclosure, I lost my elk last year after hitting it with a 7mm RM 160g/North Fork. Placement is what matters most and in spite of the biggest blood trail I’ve ever seen, that hit was apparently just under the spine and too far back, a liver hit, and the blood trail eventually petered out.

A good friend of mine guided elk hunters for years, before we had the great bullet choices we have today . He carried a .243 as his personal choice – not because he thought it was the best choice but because it was what he had.

I agree with saddlesore – the smaller cartridges are best for experts, not novices.

340 I knew you would get a kick out of that....which is "why" I said it.

I also knew saddlesore would chime in there as well.


Here's an observation: I recall back years when a lot of the printed material on elk rifles was published. A lot of it advocated mediums with heavy bullets,things like the 338's with 250-300 gr bullets,and 375's with 270-300 gr. There were even some guys like Will Haffler (IIRC) who it seems had to trail up and kill not only his own elk, but those wounded by clients,and invented something called the 458 American,which was a shortened 485 Win Mag designed for bolt guns.

The purpose was to rake a big bull at spitting distance stem to stern.

It seemed to me that most of these guys hunted heavily timbered slopes steep as a chalet roof, in places like Idaho and NW Montana;had to take hasty shots at bulls standing at funny angles and under circumstances that did not present perfect shot opportunities.They wanted penetration and big, leaky holes.Distances were not long.

They were advocates of the Keithian Theory of elk cartridges.


These guys were always at odds with the small bore boys who rolled the same bulls in more open country,(like high alpine basins in Wyoming) with stuff like the Roberts,270/280,7mag,30/06 etc,which the Keithians considered to be pea shooters.

The Colorado boys seemed to be all over the map....seems they have a diversity of country in Colorado.

Even today the elk have spread into cow country and can be sniped at distance with nothing but thin air between them and a bullet,and lots of time to set up.

Looking back, I guess both were "right"given the bullets of the day,and the circumstances under which they are hunted. The elk also seem more abundant today,and less reluctant to stick their noses into the open. Kids can whack them using little guns, with impunity.

So we have these discussions about what constitutes fully sufficient elk cartridges when we might consider that what works in the open country of Wyoming or New Mexico might not be quite the ticket on some north slope in Idaho. So we might want to consider where we are, and what we're doing.

Random thoughts....not advocating one thing over the other.

Bob - it seems everybody "is all over the map" anymore when it comes to elk "anything". I see the pics of the nice bulls that the Montana guys are putting down and there isn't even a stick in the picture! Just wide open spaces and meadows with roads, which leaves me silently lamenting why in he!! I keep elk hunting the steep thick stuff! Maybe I should give that "meadow elk hunting" a try - and I'm not picking on anyone with those comments. Heck, Shrapnel has "Truck Bugling" down to a science - which by the way, was funnier than crap!

Or someone makes a comment that "one should just place the bullet where it needs to go" - if it was just that easy, right? Those thoughts and comments leave me wondering if they even get out of the truck to do the shooting.

Anyway, I agree with Alamosa's thoughts and guidance tips, but there's a whole lot more going on between each "shoot, aquire the target and shoot again". There are several "mechanics" the shooter is doing during each of those steps. To me the mechanics of off-hand shooting are really only two scenarios - game standing and game trapping.

What I wish we could have on the Elk Forum are civil discussions about things like close range shooting technique or tracking or whatever. Let's talk mechanics, break it down, share some good information, as this "gear/bullet/rifle only talk" mindset has worn thin and is a very small part of successfull hunting.

Study: Linky

So have the .22-250s, .220 Swifts, .243, .250 savage, etc. become fully adequate elk calibers or all-around calibers for most any big game hunting in the lower 48 or even in Alaska (with the right bullet and placement of course)

I don't believe they have, I get hung up on fully adequate I suppose.
Some family members started with .243's and 6mm's for big game and stayed with them, two of my girl cousins and two of my daughters come to mind. The cousins have killed several elk. They were mostly cows and mostly shot in more open country but they can shoot and haven't lost any. Most of the other gals went on to a .270.
Fully adequate on the edge of a hay field with a cow tag and fully adequate in a sidehill pole thicket on bulls are different enough that I wouldn't care to try the second with a .243 or my .250 Savage unless that was my only choice.
A lot of the choices come down to confidence. If you are confident in the cartridge and rifle it seems to help.
While I'm comfortable that cartridges above my lower threshold are not necessary all the time. For me that is a .308 Win with a 150/165 grain bullet or a .270/150 grain.
For one my huunting partners, who has only killed one bull but seen a couple other kills a .338 is what a person should use for elk. At least that is what he said when I told him I was planning to bring a .30-06 with 180 Partitons on our spike only bull hunt last year. I guess I brainwashed him.

Completely off subject, but I have shot a lot of elk in the thick timber. Probably 90% of them.

In the early years, I bumped quite a few when I didn't know what I was doing. I probably got one shot for every ten I jumped. Once I had it figured I out, I shot a lot more when they were just standing there or in their beds. Many were shot right behind the ear or at the base of the skull. No doubt a 243, 257 or any similar chamberings could have done the job . I choose a 30-06 with 220 gr RN or at least a 180 gr GK

I don't claim to be the best or even close to a mediocre elk hunter. In fact I tell most guys that wonder how I shoot an elk ever year, that I just bumble around until I find a stupid one.

Three things I see hunters do that results in elk bolting off in the timber. They move too fast, don't watch the wind close, enough and don't use their binoculars in the thick stuff to watch for that one ear, eye, tip of a horn or a leg.

Not all elk are taken in thick timber, that’s for sure. By way of example, and to get people in the mood (only 7 months to go until 3rd season…),here are some photos taken in years past.

2003, small 6x6 bull.


2006, buddy’s cow. Mine is down on the slope, behind us, far left side.


2007, first of two cows. Dang near got overrun by a second herd passing through after she was already down.


2007, second of two cows. She and a small herd came off a mountain over a mile away. I passed on a 25-foot shot, took one at about 40 yards.


2009, passed on an easy shot at a 1-1/2 year-old cow, went home empty-handed. If I’d had a bull tag I’d have had a dandy.


2010, shot my elk from the far timber line. It went straight down near where I was standing when I took the picture.


2010, son-in-law shot this one cross-valley, 382 yards or thereabouts. (Would have to check the records.)
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_11551.JPG[/img]

2011, on a 1/2 square mile patch of public land.
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_13584.JPG[/img]

2012, my elk is down in the circle, 400 yards out.
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_1509-2.JPG[/img]

2013, shot my elk from here.
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/20131107_065843.jpg[/img]

WOW! yeah! obviously we have different experience to draw from, I would not even ever expect to find elk traveling through open areas like that during day light, Id expect the sea of orange road hunting guys would prevent anything worth shooting from venturing out in open areas like that, on public access land.
yes Id expect open areas to prove to be good on private ranches
or near large parks, or areas near housing, or major roads,or ski resorts and air-ports, where hunting's restricted, but I've never had access to those areas

GW: I agree. A lot of what you are talking about is knowing how to "hunt".

You hit the mark.
Success rate on RFW ranches is 65% to 100%, resident only, and not that hard to draw.

If a guy looks for the out of the way places that others don't hunt, you'd be surprised where you can find elk. Once you learn how to get in here and how to hunt it, you can kill an elk every year. All BLM.

The big difference between CH and my hunts is he mostly hunts the 3rd season or maybe 4th during migration up in the NW quadrant of CO. The elk come out of the higher country and traverse those sage brush flats heading west mostly. I'm not as tough now days. I hunt muzzle loader season close to the same area before they start to move and then the Gunnison area during the 2nd rifle season.

Here are some additional photos to get everyone thinking about those Colorado Apps that are due soon. Any one of them ,except maybe the last one, I could have probably killed with a .243.I would not have felt as confident though.


A dink I killed last year near Gunnison.



An even smaller dink I killed this past years in the NW CO during ML season. This young bull was about 18 months, but no testicles and no horn pedicles. Anterless then that I had a "B" tag for.



Year before, same place same ML.



Shot her in her bed. Gunnison.



Another one shot in her bed at first light. Flat Tops



This was one was shot in the timber,(ML season) but she made it about half way across a beaver pond and then fell in the water.



Then there are those in the nasty stuff.

[img]http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj250/vmautino/blowdown.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj250/vmautino/Packing2.jpg[/img]

Then sometimes you get lucky and catch them sneaking thru the aspen.

[img]http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj250/vmautino/DSCN0360.jpg[/img]

243....100gr Partition.....First elk for the boy, the tenth elk for that 243. That was a few years ago, he's now added two more elk to his bragging rights with that rifle and load.



Fist part of the equation is to shoot them in the front half, the second part is to use enough bullet. Cartridge chosen doesn't mean as much.

My family owns/owned land in Colorado's GMU 61 and 62 for the past 45+ years My parents built their retirement cabin in GMU 61 almost 20 years ago and live there (off grid) from May till early Nov. NF borders two sides of both properties.

Over the years I've probably found 25-30 dead, unrecovered elk in or around our properties. For the ones that weren't too rotten to investigate, the majority appeared to be shot in the front half. I've done a quick "bullet necropsy" on two of those elk (much to my young son's disgust on the last one) to see what happened. In both cases it was poor penetration--the bullets made it to the first lung and quit. Too much expansion with one, on the other elk the bullet came apart and didn't penetrate very far.

Dry, poor tracking conditions, the elk runs 400-700 yds in thickish timber, all adds up to an unrecovered elk.

Although we have lots of good bullets out there these days, and I've had the opportunity to observe lots of bullets--including Noz's other excellent offerings--kill elk, I haven't seen a bullet outperform a Partition when it comes to consistently deep penetration across the widest range of velocities. Of course, the Accubond and Ballistic Tip do tend to shoot smaller groups than the Pt........

Casey