Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles an education in chromed barrels!

This has gotten to be fun, think I am finding that Bravo Company barrels are made by Green Mountain, then Spikes, PSA, and Noveske barrels are all made by FN and I think all use the M249 type double thickness chrome lining. I had a Noveske barrel and it would shoot a 1 inch 3 shot group was not a bad barrel but it was heavier, I never shot a deliberate 10 shot group with it, Daniel Defense makes their own barrels now don't know if they chrome them or have someone do it. I guess Krieger makes their own Criterion barrels that are said to be chromed and hand lapped.

Trying to "guess" how to rate them regards overall accuracy/value.

My thoughts are:

Daniel Defense
FN
Criterion
Green Mountain (Bravo company)(also Olympic arms I think)

None of the stainless barrels from anyone are chromed that I know of.

Daniel Defense SBN version barrels are not chromed either but they are nitrided inside the bore & outside as well.

If you want the highest level of accuracy, I'd think one of the versions above would have an edge over an chrome lined barrel, but I dunno absent enough side by side comparisons under some controlled conditions.

MM

you can see my post on my opinion of criterion's barrel. it shoots almost as well as my lilja barrel which is the same length and contour. the lilja I think does shoot better with a larger variety of loads. but with loads the CBI barrel does well with and preferred loads for the lilja is about the same accuracy wise.

Bravo Company barrels made by Green Mountain. That would explain a lot and I'm not surprised.

Jimmy, Criterion barrels are button rifles, where FN and DD are hammer forged.

My first group of of my new Criterion barrel went 5 shots at 3/4 of an inch. I suspect it will do better once I wring it out a bit.

wait a minute...back the truck up. you mean on top of losing sleep over what caliber and what type of bullet i should be shooting, now i need to worry about my barrel?

Not all of them. Probably just their standard chrome lined barrels. They forge some themselves and if I remember right, at one point were using Criterion for their SS stuff.

Sounds like they are about like Wilson barrels then which isn't half bad for the cost.

I just picked up a 16" Wilson Combat Ultra light for my wife's new build.

I haven't made it to the range with it yet.

That's not the same Wilson. Wilson Arms (barrels) and Wilson Combat are two different companies.

For what Wilson Combat costs generally at lease IIRC, they should outshoot Criterion and the Wilson arms tubes.

the criterion is said to be chromed and then hand lapped, probably not a bad choice. So maybe the list is in decreasing order:
Criterion (button rifled, chromed, hand lapped)
Daniel Defense hammer forged and chrome lined
FN (double chrome thickness)

way down the list Bravo company-Green Mountain

if I made this post on M4 carbine I would either be banned or an "industry professional" would come along and defend green mountain barrels..

Criterion and Daniel Defense both have 16" barrels in the lightweight/pencil contour I want.

Although one is button rifled and the other is hammer forged, I'm getting the idea that both makes are equally well thought of, on the average.

Would that be about right?

Was it Daniel Defense, or Bravo Company that someone had some pretty unpleasant thing to say about recently in this forum?

Barrel was shooting 3" groups and the maker would not stand behind it?

That was me and it was 4" groups. It was a BCM rifle and no, they did not stand behind it.

I have little regard for that company or their products.

BTW, I shoot a Daniel Defense S2W nitrided barrel now and I am very happy with it.

Terry

what is funny is that they make a $2400 "Jack Carbine" that is loved on by the typical crowd with apparently a green mountain barrel in it. I am sure it works just fine, and will hold a 10 shot 2-3 inch group at 100 yards but to me that is just horseshit. Of course I know nothing, and someone will be along to extol the virtues of a 2 MOA $2400 weapon. I guess what is even funnier is some rag, I think Shotgun news had the Jack carbine shooting .25 inch groups or some such B.S. another reason why I don't by gun rags any longer.

DD Pencil barrel with 1-7/.750 gas block may shoot the 70 grain TSX better than the .223 wylde 1-8 .625 gas block...

I guess they figure if Noveske and Wilson combat have a market for $2500 DI AR15s, they might as well join the gravy train. Some people just have to have the most expensive stuff.

Green Mtn is just like any of the other large barrel makers, like Wilson. They make at least 2 different grades of barrel from hand-lapped to Blaster grade. I've shot some of my best scores with a lapped Green Mtn.

I had a barrel that the maker said was Wilson that shot ho-hum and died even quicker. It was not a lapped barrel. But then it was a blaster-grade upper.

the FN barreled Noveske I had was a heavy pig but shot reasonably well. IIRC it would make a MOA, they did replace the barrel for me however. I found Noveske a pleasant company to deal with.

I've had 3 BCM barrels, still have two which are both standard chrome lined barrels. The SS barrel I had was a MOA shooter for sure, the chrome lined ones will put my 75/77 loads inside 2" consistently. Never tried developing a load for them.

My Colt and FN made CHF PSA CL barrels will do the same or better. Again, never tried developing a load for them as they shoot pretty good with generic loads.

Like barrels for bolt guns, with AR barrels, you generally get what you pay for.

Having said that, with "cheap" barrels you might get a shooter, & then you might not.

With a higher quality barrel from a maker with a good rep, consistency is the name of the game & when you buy a barrel from one of them, you can generally be assured of high, & reliable performance from all their barrels so it's not a crap shoot.

Building a gun is a personal thing & JackSchitt from Bumfucked Egypt can build the best gun in the world with the best components but it'll never be worth the cost of the components too most anyone else; a gun from Noveske or KAC or Larue costs up front, but guarantees a significant amount of resale value.

The best value on the market today for a reasonably priced high performance rifle at $1300 or so, might be Stag's 3G; it has a 410 SS Shaw barrel & a Gieselle 3G trigger, but they will only guarantee 1.5 MOA but Mallard Addict, here, has one & reports it to be a 1/2-3/4" gun.

Shaw is not Kreiger, for sure, but they make a decent & consistent product.

I would rather have seen the barrel made from 416 SS rather than 410 & I don't understand their logic for choosing 410, but that's a lot of gun for the money.

MM

speaking of...





sorry. this is the only thing i have to contribute

I was reading the interview again last night with John Noveske and he really skirted the issue of who's double chrome lined barrel he was using but it was built to his specs?

The SS barrels are different steel than what Pac Nor uses but they are built on Pac Nor's equipment by their employees after they clock out for Pac Nor.

Seems confusing enough to make one's head explode.

I know Colt makes their barrels and Colt Canada makes CHF barrels that are pretty good but getting one stamped Diameco would be difficult.

I'm still holding onto DD as the light weight chrome lined choice but after the 6.8 thread I'm considering trying one to see if more pigs die.

I do know out of the 3 Noveske SS barrels I've had, they are my first choice for an accurate shooter. Others may be more accurate but for an all around barrel that's gassed properly, needs little cleaning and shoots several loads well under MOA, I can't complain.

A good melonite barrel will last longer than chrome, and be very accurate.

I am pretty sure PSA, Spikes and Noveske have the same barrels...

spikes - These CHF barrels are made to the Mil-Spec for the M249 SAW.

Noveske - --1 in 7” Twist, M249 Machine Gun barrel steel and Chrome Lining (appx. 2 times as thick as an M4 or M16)

PSA --Barrel: 16" Mil-spec barrel steel, mid-length gas, A2 profile barrel, chambered in 5.56 NATO, with a 1/7 twist, chrome lined bore and M4 barrel extension made for us right here in Columbia SC by FN Manufacturing.

They are all made by FN.

The only question is who is selling the seconds, and who is selling the thirds.

the Noveske I had, was a MOA on most occasions with most loads after they replaced the first barrel...good people... Dogzapper bought one of those Gunsight carbines with 14.5 inch Noveske M249 barrel and he indicated to me that it was a MOA or better barrel.

I expect Noveske sells good barrels on my experience and DZ's, no personal experience with a spikes or PSA.

DD
Criterion or FN
sticks
stones
bones
Green Mtn. (based on Terry's report anyway)

Jimmy,

My daughter and I took out my Criterion this weekend.

First group at 100 went 7/16".

I do not believe those BCM barrels were Green Mtn. Everything I saw pointed to BCM sourcing from criterion for their SS barrels. Either way, I have owned one as well that shot great and most that own them are very pleased. His experience is a drop in the bucket.

The SS barrels are criterion,I know for a fact the BCM chrome lined barrels are not from criterion. I know because I asked criterion. There was discussion about green mtn/BCM chrome barrels on M4 carbine, at some point some industry experts jumped in and defended the GM barrels. I can remember people defending the Pinto, and I have friends that think Hillary was the best Secretary of State ever..

A fool and his money are soon parted...

I thought the member here who had so much trouble was with a SS BCM barrel?

Either way, my two BCM chrome lined barrels shoot great also. Right there with the FN and Colt. Not that that's a significant sample size, just goes to show that no matter where the blanks came from the barrels can still be accurate.

do you have the hammer forged or the standard BCM barrel?

Both standard.

I'm pretty sure TC1, was aware his was a sample size of 1 and he was just wanting a replacement. If he had gotten a replacement and it turned out all right, nothing bad would've been said but it's how BCM handled the situation that steered me and others away from Paul and his company.

It was a SS barrel. Bad parts pop up in every brand, it's something we deal with. Companies that don't stand behind their products need to be pointed out and avoided.

what do you mean by "good"? Then does Green mtn provide any barrels on a military contract to anyone anywhere, just curious is all?

I can post a couple of targets with a colt 6720 barrel and a DD barrel. I can post a target of a BO pistol I sold that shot "good". I had a MOA Noveske chromed barrel that shot MOA for 5, "good" means different things to different folks. Good to Formadilosus means 1.5-2.0 for 10 shots at 100 IIRC, good for me means about 1MOA or better for 5 shots, but the DD barrel will do about 1.5 with 10 Federal M193 if I take my time.

Me I would never spend $2200 on a green mtn barreled "jack" carbine, if it was an FN barreled or DD barreled gun I would come closer to thinking about it.

a fool and his money are soon parted...

I'm in the same boat as wareagle. My BCM standard CL barrel shoots "good". I hit the size of targets I'm aiming at, at the ranges I'm shooting at. I admit these are not quantifiable standards, but its the purpose the rifle serves for me. I don't have quality magnified optics on it and I only recently installed an ALG ACT trigger as an upgrade to the stock mil-spec trigger. This rifle is my personal weapon meant to imitate (to an extent) my work gun at my unit, so its my "tactical" training shooter. I've really only shot plinking grade ammo out of it, let alone work up a personalized load for it as I don't have reloading equipment nor the time to do it.

I'm quite certain the accuracy limiting factor on my barrel is this guy behind the rifle.

I will say that they should have done a better job for TC1. I've been a happy camper with my rifle, though.

I am thinking "good" means 2-3 inches at 100 yards, which is fine if your using a red dot sight. I see the utility in a barrel like that in the event that it is reasonably priced, still cannot see a $2300 carbine with a 2-3 MOA capable barrel on it, but that is just me.

Jimmy, I am fairly certain both the BCM barrels I own are capable of less than 2-3 MOA. With ball ammo 2-3 can be expected from almost any barrel though. I know I have gotten decent groups from the BCM barrels in the past. If I get a chance this weekend, I will shoot my 69gr SMK hand loads through both BCM barrels, a Colt, and an FN just to compare. I'll post the results here.

lets go 10 shot groups as 3 shot groups are non meaningful per the guru's.

I'll do 10 shot groups. I usually shoot at least 5 shots, 3 is just enough to confirm zero. 3 shot groups are insignificant for measuring accuracy IMO.

I've posted this before, but not on the AR forum I believe. Carlos probably has more knowledge than all of us together.His email is below.


Butch

I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.

As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).

As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.

Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.

Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.

I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.

One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.

I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.

Best of luck!
Carlos


Actually Joel Kendrick is a friend of over 10years. He started Meloniting(Isonite) my barrels long before he was hired as plant manager and engineer at MMI Trutec in Paragould, Arkansas. Melonite(Isonite) is not a coating as Carlos said. In simple terms it is a case harden nitried metal treatment. Joel was able to refine the process to a lower temperature to not affect the barrel's heat treat properties.

There are gas nitriding processes now, that work as low as 850°F.

High performance automotive engine valve springs are often nitrided. Corrosion is not an issue, but the nitrogen atoms penetrate the metal crystals and leave a very high residual compressive stress - which is a good thing for fatigue life. It's a similar, or even better benefit than you get with shot peening, even though the hard layer is only .001" or so deep.

I have a Daniel Mk12, that has the forged stainless, nitrided barrel. Still working with it as far as finding best loads but it seems to be at least MOA or better, and I doubt I'll ever wear it out.

Actually they are doing Melonite in the 550-600 deg temp. 850 is above annealing temp.

So who makes good 5.56 nitrited barrels?

Get a Krieger and have it done.

AR performance makes a very accurate 223 wylde barrel that will shoot 5.56

BCM standard chrome lined barrel:



PSA CHF (FN) chrome lined barrel:



Colt 6920 all factory (shot with irons):



BCM 20" A4 chrome lined barrel (not the best representation of accuracy, shot with irons):



I was shocked that the BCM barrels kept all rounds on target. One didn't do half bad for a chrome lined, lightweight barrel.

What was the load?

Once fired LC-09
69gr SMK
24.5gr of RL-15
CCI-BR4
2.255" COAL