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Originally Posted by curdog4570
"For you cop haters, if you A. Weren't there or B. Have never worn the badge, you need to STFU. I feel if one has never walked that thin blue line, one should not commentate on actions taken by brave men and women who volunteer their lives to protect and serve against things that go bump in the night."

I'm the "cop hater" who offered the "shotgun solution".

But, you're right........... we should all shut up on these type threads and let you HEROES have the floor.


I wasn't there, and I've never worn a badge, but if I see reason to criticize a cop I will because this is America, and I have a constitutional right to do so.

In this instance, I don't see any major reason to criticized, but of those who do, please respect their right to express their opinion. When that opinion is wrong, such as in this instance, just show they why it is wrong.... cool


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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To bad Ringworm or some one like him was not the lead there, as there is an excellent chance this encounter would have never been heard of outside of Cottonwood.

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My question is, why, when the police were not succeeding in subduing the family, did the cops not escalate their physicality?

There should have been heads knocked with the asp. Smack some of these guys right across the ear and they would go down. There should have been some knees taken out. Especially the big guy who was trying to help, he easily could have destroyed the dad's knee when the dad re-engaged and the walmart employee came back in from the side. I believe some of the LEOs also had that opportunity when they engaged family members who were attacking other LEOs.

I agree the tactics of the police might not have been up to snuff when dealing with a combative group like this. But I think they did ok. I am honestly surprised more family members weren't shot. Amazed really after the first shot was fired, more LEOs didn't follow suit and I would not have blamed them one bit.

I agree with the idea a shotgun would have helped tremendously, but what police expects a simple assault in a walmart to require a shotgun?


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The combination of a police requirement for clean backgrounds and college education ...in addition to the socialization experiment that there is no justifiable reason to use violence has produced in this generation a crop of "men" who have never been in a real fist fight.
The best blows landed in the entire mele were by the fat loss prevention officer.


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Originally Posted by ringworm
The combination of a police requirement for clean backgrounds and college education ...in addition to the socialization experiment that there is no justifiable reason to use violence has produced in this generation a crop of "men" who have never been in a real fist fight.
The best blows landed in the entire melee were by the fat loss prevention officer.


I can see that.I believe it also might stem from the incessant soft-touch training. Don't want to be seen as brutes. Don't want to offend the sensibilities of the masses so the police are constantly drilled to be extra cautious in their use of force.

To me it is just like the constant training kids receive to not go to blows when dealing with someone attacking them or bullying them. But when these kids have finally reached that tipping point and turn loose, they often cannot control their response and go overboard. Just like what we see with some police going over the top when they reach their tipping point.


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Originally Posted by ringworm
The combination of a police requirement for clean backgrounds and college education ...in addition to the socialization experiment that there is no justifiable reason to use violence has produced in this generation a crop of "men" who have never been in a real fist fight.
The best blows landed in the entire mele were by the fat loss prevention officer.


I have never been in that position these LEOs found themselves in. But I can tell you, watching that, my BP shot through the roof and I was hollering at the fat walmart guy, "Take out his knee!". Yelling at cops, "strike them upside the fricken head!". And finally, "Shoot! Shoot them! Drill him!".

I have nothing against these cops. Think they did admirably given the entire context, but I also think things could have gone a lot better, but they most always could have when looking back in time.


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I've been in knockdown drag outs at several NCO clubs.
Drunk Marines fighting drunk Marines who join forces when MPs show up.
And we were under orders to go light. Broken bones effect deployment.
Sometimes you are better off taking a few blows to the back and you and a partner beating one down, cuffing them and moving on to another a doing the same.
Didn't seem like much teamwork going on.
A line needed to be drawn.
It should have been more than obvious that after the first swing those folks were not going to comply and that they were going to have to be restrained en mass.
SOP for single or multiple suspects should have been transitioned to mob/riot type scenario.
Regroup, draw a lone of demarcation and force them to attract fronaly...circle the wagons, so to speak.
The big cans of OC should have been brought out APAS!!!



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Originally Posted by ringworm

Sometimes you are better off taking a few blows to the back and you and a partner beating one down, cuffing them and moving on to another a doing the same.
Didn't seem like much teamwork going on.
A line needed to be drawn.

SOP for single or multiple suspects should have been transitioned to mob/riot type scenario.
Regroup, draw a lone of demarcation and force them to attract frontally...circle the wagons, so to speak.
The big cans of OC should have been brought out APAS!!!


Like I mentioned before, I don't think this department had been through much NCO Club/Riot training....


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Obviously impossible to train for every imaginable scenario.
But the dojo ain't the street and most rubber mat black belts find out the hard way what happen on asphalt is a total different game.


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