Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire California water problems...who would've guessed

Environmentalists/Liberals continue to phugg up the water here. No phugging brains at all, yet they continue to elect the same azzholes every election cycle. Maybe it would be best if CA fell into the ocean.

I have no problem with the above IF they get rid of the millions of illegals using up our resources. Oh, and the democrats and non-producing suck off the government tit types.

Salmonella for Head of Fish & Game!

crazy

water collection and retention should be their biggest issue in the state.

even if this is just a temporary condition, its a crippling situation if/when it occurs.

Maybe this drought will be a wake up call to the CA people...but don't count on it.

Ummm...

There's kind of a good reason why diluting the salinity of the delta is important, that has nothing to do with fish populations. You see, if there isn't enough flow through the delta, then hundreds if not thousands of farmers in the delta would be pumping overly saline water into their fields. I'm not a farmer myself, but I've heard that's kind of a bad thing. Biblical sowing of salt and all...

It's not the politician's fault.
The majority of Californians elect leaders that reflect their own values and beliefs.
It's the phugging morons that live here that's the real problem...

Most of the morooooons are first or second generation, they or their parents have came here from the rest of the states, because Calif. had good weather, jobs or they wante to be movie stars. They created this mess, they didn't create the draught but they damn sure added to it. If California could turn the clock back to before the Dust Bowl, it would be the place to be. The people are still coming and it is going to get worse. ED

Yep, I've met numerous people that left much more conservative states and moved to California to be with people that "think" like they do.
Like a festering cancerous lesion...it grows until it kills the host.

Agree - get the non citizens OUT. Then let's see if the state can support the population. California has always been a desert - now it's a desert with millions of people living here....

This is correct. Sucking all the water out of the rivers isn't the answer. Neither is sucking it all out of the aquifer. But increased storage capacity doesn't necessarily mean either must follow. Bad planning and ignoring reality bites.

People, too many people, ilegalls, millions from other states who migrated here. Damming up the rivers so we can pump more water for LA and Central Valley Farmers so they can sell their nuts and rice all over the country, is not worth killing off the rivers of life.
The farmers and the parasites in LA could care less if the last hundred salmon float under the Golden Gate out to sea, belly up, they just want their's. Stop immigration to CA, both ilegal and legal.

the only conclusion you can arrive at, is that liberals in power, State as well as Federal, have been working hard for years, to destroy America.
We are seeing the fruits of their labor now.

Lake Shasta is the states largest resevour. It was built in the 30s and 40s to keep salt water intrusion out of the Sacramento River during times of low flows. Ag has signed on to pay for the non funded part of the lake, while the funded part is payed for with tax dollars. The funded part is for the public and in the last ten years the environmentalist have carved out a large chunk of that water for delta and fish issues. In a short period the environmentalist have drastically reduced the size of the water pie.

To add insult to injury these environmentalist are the same groups that have held the state hostage as far as any new water storage projects are concerned. They seem to find plenty of uses for CA water, and then they tell everyone else to conserve.

The worst offender in this whole movement just might be the NRSDC National Resourse Defence Council. This group is led by a bunch of environmental lawyers and they seem to be compleatly economically driven.

These ass holes litigate litigate litigate and offer no real solution to the problem. In short they are just agitators and use the environment as their cover.
~

Sorry for the rant, but this [bleep] gets old.

Barkof yes I am a farmer and water does butter my side of the bread, I'm also a fisherman. I fish the Sac for strippers,trout, and sometimes salmon oh and shad. Hell I care about the fish but man has jacked with the environment so much I don't think either knows which end is up. Dam are in place and this has altered nature now we use these dams to further alter the environment, when maybe just maybe what we try to fix was caused by us planting a fish that wasn't native. This is in reference to fixing salmon problems with water when the problem might be stipper predation on the migrating smolt.

You are well informed on the state of water in California. Especially the financial damage caused by the interference of the NRDC and the Sierra Club. They are not conservation organizations anymore. They are self perpetuating law firms begging for donations.

Even in good water years there isn't enough to meet all filed Water Rights. The only practical additional water storage is to raise the Shasta Dam, and to recharge the various aquifers. Intelligent water allocation is a neccesity. Cities have the votes to get whatever water they need. Agribusiness is going to have to adjust.

No water will be imported from the Klamath River. That's only magical thinking on a few people's part. Governor Brown's water diversion tunnels proposal for the Delta are quite literally "pipe dreams". There is no money for it. Nor will Congress agree to Ah Pah Dam even if it's entirely funded by California.

The Delta Smelt is essentially extinct in the Sacramento Delta. The only healthy populations are in large aquariums. Whether any Salmon and Steelhead runs can survive this drought is debatable. Those issues will likely go away on their own. But the outflow of the Delta does need to be maintained to prevent saltwater intrusion. And that water comes from Shasta and Oroville dams. If not then the California Aqueduct will send no water South, and the Delta's farms will go out of production.

On a national scale consider that their is a chance, or a probability, that California will be transfered to Mexico. The State history is of encouraging illegal aliens to migrate and stay. Illegals and Mexican-Americans will soon enough be the State majority. Soon California may revert back to Mexico. For two reasons. The desire by Democrats for votes lead to a policy to prevent deporting illegals. And the greedy desire of agribusiness for cheaper farm labor causing the scraping of the Bracero temporary farm worker program in 1964. Get used to the idea of Mexico as a mexican State, Americans...

I agree that Orville and Shasta will help keep salt intrusion out just as they were designed to. The states finite water supply used to last 4-7 years now it's 2-3. I think if the state is willing to allow growth it should make allowances for water. Hell if a new subdivision goes in they mitigate for schools, fire dept, and police. Why not water.

Southern California, where most of the people live, has always been a desert. Northern California has never been a desert, well it might end up one if we keep sending our water south. Ed

The only dependable water source for CA is the ocean. There should have been a massive building project of desalination plants built along the coastline before now. This would help alleviate some of the water demand along with other dam building projects....or else CA is paid big time for someone else's water leftover.

The only way desalination would work is to build a canal from the ocean to the Salton Sea, flood the Salton Sea, and then you can build huge desalination plants that can pump directly in to already existing aqueducts.

Would be expensive, hugely expensive, about 25% as expensive as the high speed rail system. But it solves two currently immediate water needs in Southern California, a reliable fresh water source, and the restoration of the Salton Sea.

Coastal property in California is too valuable and limited to be able to build desalination plants the size that they'd need to be. Only way it could work is to have them inland, and then near a distribution system able to handle the output.

A canal to the Salton Sea would solve "ALL" of Southern California's water needs at once!

And unlike what most believe, building water storage is not the answer, we have plenty of that already... which is useless when there is no water to fill them.


Phil

True that there is no water to fill them now, but if they had been built thirty years ago the state would have been in better shape now water wise. Ed

It is true that there is no water to fill them, but if they had but them thirty years ago the state would have been in better shape water wise. ED

To busy [bleep]' around.

Too busy f a g g i n ' around.

Greyghost... Please post a link about using Salton Sink as a saline sump. And when that would make desalinization cost effective.

Even in high water years there isn't enough water in California to satisfy all who hold Water Rights. The demand will always exceed the supply of surface water. And the aquifers around the State can't make up the difference. Those aquifers are already over pumped.

Some more of them f&&king environmentalists/liberals BS thinking. Lets protect the earth instead of coexisting with it. I believe you can develop natural resources without destroying the environment. If environmentalists/liberals would put more time into developing the resources I bet it could be done and still keep the natural beauty of the earth.

Phil,
You've just hit on 1 core piece of the problem. "Coastal property in California is too valuable to...".

I'm thinking the cost to flood the Salton Sea (or any other viable solution, for that matter) pales when you consider the alternative.

As you already stated, storage facilities aren't the problem. You have plenty, just no water to keep in them..

JMHO, but if you're weighing the difference between millions of Kalifornians doing without "necessary and required" water, and maintaining the beautiful upscale lifestyle of southern Kalifornia..

So.. Let's do some fuzzy math. Desalination development for perpetual clean water = 25% of the cost for high speed rail system. Hmmm.

OK, Let's review now. Water for survival.. 1/4 less high speed rail system? Water for survival.. 1/4 less high speed rail system?

Phuggin' hilarious.
Just sayin'.

And, Oh, by the way..

Liberal retards never seem to have a problem employing Imminent Domain to foster other "projects".

Water rights never garanteed the holders water in times of drought, only a place in line for it. It's a system for some order, a order of curtailment and somewhat reflects land values.

There's a lot of truth to that. California was once a great place to grow up, but those days are long past. I can't tell you how much it sickened to me to continually meet people from NY or NJ who thought they were living some ultimate fantasy brie-and-wine California lifestyle while pushing the same failed liberal policies that turned so many big northeastern cities in chitholes.

There are a great many things I miss about that state, especially the unrivaled diversity and beauty of its wildlands, but I am SO glad to be out of there now.

Yes. But when a last in line Water Rights holder doesn't get their water they demand they should have it anyway. By way of the national media.

I give you the Westlands Water District as an example. What say you? What's your take on this? I don't own Water Rights in California. But I have a relative in Chico who is sweating bullets over this.

Trying to understand this.

Salton Sea is 240 feet below sea level.
Banning Pass is over 2500 feet above sea level.
Water from the Colorado aqueduct is over 1500' high at the Mecca or White Water tunnels to flow into Lake Mathews and beyond.
So water desalinated at Salton Sea is going to have to be pumped about 2000 feet up to flow in the existing Aqueduct.

So how is it cheaper than water directly from the ocean when So Cal's inland valleys are only about the 1000 foot elevation level?

Detroit has lots of water and available housing. Just imagine the utopia that is Californians living in Detroit.
Bring a coat....

This drought is going to break a lot of ranchers, but if it makes the libs move back where they came from it will be a good thing. ED

Its about taking care of as many problems all at once, and as cheaply as possible.

Any way you work desalination it has to be pumped to the highest point and gravity fed as needed. And if possible without building new infrastructure!

Salton Sea has got to be taken care of and soon or there will be such toxic dust blowing throughout that the area will be inhabitable.

Since trying to put fresh water into the Salton Sea to desalinate it to acceptable levels isn't currently workable, the canal allowing ocean water would do that and bring the area back from the brink of destruction. And since (hopefully) desalination as a necessary water source won't be permanent, its capacity when not needed could also then be used to keep the Salton Sea at acceptable levels... another words solving both problems at the same time.

Currently they have two solutions to solve the problem with the Salton Sea, both are half ass and not well thought out. The current plan thought to be the cheapest only fixes part of the problem and hasn't been funded at all in the last 40 years. Estimated I believe at 9 to 10 billion and does nothing. The Eco system their is dying and hasn't much time left.

There's also a possible third benefit of such a system. More water from down south, might also permit enough water to be retained up in the Owens Valley area to help solve the problem there which is already in the works, but I don't believe funded either.

Legislator can solve the problem or keep talking about it.

But Obama is pushing the rail system. He's not pushing the water solution. That's all the difference in the world on what gets the priority.

Hey, I believe in high speed rail just not at 200 mph with frequent stops.

All that is needed is dedicated track with equipment we already have and at current speeds of 60 to 70 mph.

WOW, we had that back in the 30's.

Those speeds would get from San Diego, to Sacramento in 8 to 10 hours depending on number of stops, and few of the long waits and delays of air travel.

Hell, San Diego to Seattle would be a pleasant trip.

Dedicated track is the answer to rail... and believe it or not, the high speed rail system doesn't have it!


Phil

First thing that need to be done with Salton Sea is to stop Mexico from using it as a septic tank

That part has already been solved, but also makes the Salton Sea problem worse. Mexico has been building a couple water treatment plants, but also plans to use the output which reduces the inflow into the Salton Sea. But even that and the flow of salts and pesticide from farming in the area isn't of levels to worry about. Its the lack of inflow that's the problem.


Phil

And yet Arrowhead bottles their precious resource and ships it out of state.

Too Funny...

So, in support I have changed my bottled water consumption to Arrowhead to help drain Kalifornia sixteen ounces at a time.

Arrowhead hasn't even had permits to be working/pumping water up there in years from what I've heard!

But "EVERY THING" done in California is for export!


Phil

Thats OK, the folks pumping the water probably dont have permits either.

Ah water problem in CA, who would have thought it?

For those of you that just don't get it...

This drought is not just about California!


Link


Phil

No. You're right about that part. They're just the ones doing the least about it.

How do you figure, there has been hundreds of millions of dollars spent in the last couple of decades building to capture and store not to mention to replenish the drain on the aquifers.

And the fact is no amount of building new storage is going to have any effect on the drought, and the more you build the more you destroy the echo system.

The problem is too much farm irrigation, crops that require too much water, and growing for export.

Phil

But, What about keeping the Golf Courses green?

On storage, I agree. On crops, I agree. But, desalination has to get off the ground there, and fast. KA is way behind the curve.

Without that, the golf courses will stay green.. for a little while.

Let's "lead them to water", so to speak. One of the smallest countries in the world..

http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/534996/megascale-desalination/

Another small country has one of the largest desalination plants.. Aruba.

The technology is there.. might have to infringe on one or 3 of those coastal Kalifornia golf courses, God Forbid.

San Diego has built one of if not the largest seawater desalination plants in the western hemisphere, which I believe should be going on line pretty soon, next year at the latest. Projects are not built or funded in just a year or two... and in fact California is leading in the technology field, has 17 desalination plants in various stages more to come.

The San Diego plant should come in at 1 Billion to build, not including operation, to produce 50,000,000 gals or 190,000 cu. meters.

And desalination, like with nuclear energy you have bi-product that must be dealt with.

But here's an idea placing an excise tax on all farm grown products shipped outside California to pay for the desalination plants.

Phil

All I can say was the best decision we ever made was to leave the Bay Area for Texas 18 years ago. I visited my college town, SLO, a year ago and it was Mars compared to when I arrived for college in 1980. I still have primers I bought on the equivalent of Main St back then. Sickening. Been bounced around to 10 places since but have landed back in Texas retired. [bleep] the place.

Another tax? Thats why so many businesses and income producing folks are fleeing that sinking ship.

Greyhost being a farmer I'm obviously biased, but I believe mans very excistace is bad for the Eco system and not just the farming part of it. I think if you compare CA population growth compared to ag growth you'd see urban development has far outpaced it. LA used to be citrus orchards now it's a cesspool of a city never to have a Eco system again. Now if it were ag land and it was let go it would go back to nature in a short time.

I see prime foothill habitat get developed never to be wild again, and I see ag land fallowed waiting for the next abundantly wet year and within months the ag land has ducks,pheasants,coyotes,snakes and all kinds of wild stuff.

CA needs something for its economy and given a choice I bet you can guess what I'd chose even if I didn't make my living doing it.

They have taxed many businesses out of state.Now he wants to tax other states people. Give the taxes a break dude.They are not always the answer. ED K

Agriculture uses 80% of the water used in California. Much of it subsidized in the central and imperial valleys.

Who then should pay for increased water supply supply in the state?

GMAB.. Gowing table grapes and lettuce in a desert is as ridiculous as green lawns and swimming pools in the San Fernando valley.

Has anyone read Cadillac Desert yet? Or do they just get their info from the couch sitter's forum?

No doubt the loss and efficiency of moving water to the desert is hard to justify and I'm not here to say whether its write wrong or smart. A lot of ca water issues are because man gets lulled to sleep in extended times of wet weather then the dry period cycles and [bleep] hit the fan.

Next time you eat a burger you better have it without lettuce or tomatoes. Ed

Marc Reisner came to a CA Farm Bureau annual dinner as a guest speaker in northern ca about a year before he passed away. He was a great speaker,but I have to admit I never read his book.

I farm in the central valley so I'm biased as well but my opinion is if you live/farm in So Cal or any other naturally arid region you should be prepared to suck hind tit during dry periods. My irrigation district sells excess water during wet years and during droughts like now we still get a decent allotment of irrigation water. We pay for the water and have PAYED for the infastructure to store it. Problem is everything is based off the maximum water available not the median.

And I'm supposed to sit here and listen to the SOCAL liberal Greyghost piss on everyones leg about how farming is the devil GFY.

Rancho Loco...

Marc Reisner's book, "Cadilac Desert", is a good read. But his bias came from being a writer for the NRDC.

Agriculture has been the heart of the California economy since the end of the Gold Rush. If it uses 80% of the water, that's a good use compared to golf courses, huge green lawns, and private swiming pools.

Food in the USA is remarkably affordable compared to other countries. So the Sacramento-San Joaquin and Imperial Valleys are a national asset.

I'm hearing this last week in the media that 40 % is ag's use. I've heard this before but Gov. Brown said it publicly so it must be true.

Water and agriculture.

Now you all know why splitting California into separate states, or districts, is brought up often. And why it will never happen.

Poor Southern California.

As part of a split, you can bet that the feds would step in and take control, calling it interstate commerce. Then the real problems begin.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/416918/no-farmers-dont-use-80-percent-californias-water-devin-nunes?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=5531adff04d3010b2c000001&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

Agriculture if ever being the heart of California's economy it didn't last long. Heavy Industry has been the majority of the economy since way before the 1900's.

Agriculture amounts to about 2% today, and that is being generous!

Nobody is talking about getting rid of AG, just being a little more wise when it comes to which crops and growing methods.


Phil

Never understood why people complain about mother nature bitting them in the azz when they live beyond the means of the land. Even worse is politicians trying to create, or say they will, an environment that is the polar opposite of what it is. California is what it is. Adapt or move somewhere else that is more to your liking.

LMAO at your arrogance, I am not going to starve or miss your lettuce and tomatoes. But you are because without water that stuff doesn't grow in the desert. You made your bed, now sleep in it.

It would be nice if they went back to where they came from. Ed

That is exactly how the rest of us feel.

Swifty, I got news for you, you ignorant SOB. I didn't make my bed. You friggen dust bowlers are what started the move out here in large droves. Then the ones that didn't come with the dust bowl came to work in the ship yards during WW2, then your friggen kin came. I am 69 years old, went to a little country school, 75% of the kids at that school were born in the mid west. Hell I can talk okie with the best of them. Calif. is not all desert and not all libs. Some of us have been here since before it was a state, and no I am not Mexican. By the way lettuce is not grown in the desert, it is grown in the Salinas Valley on the coast. Tomatoes are grown in the Sacramento Valley and neither valley was ever a desert. If you don't know about the land in California you should keep your trap shut. ED

Backroads, I don't know Montana well, but I would bet most of the so called Californians that moved there aren't true Californians. They are the same people we have trouble with. ED

No wonder you are so Phlucking ignorant. In 69 years you haven't learned chit.
You weren't even around in the dust bowl so how would you know first hand whether any of my kin ever phlucking moved there you ignorant bastid.
Matter of fact you weren't even a wet spot in your mommas dreams when the dust bowl hit.
You all are the ones that let in all the spics and chinks so you could get cheap phlucking labor and line your pockets. And after the first amnesty when they all quit, you brought in more. Pure phlucking genius. No wonder you speak Okie instead of English.
If you were an old mid west type as you say conserving resources would come natural, we didn't drain a 1,000,000 acre foot lake here during the 5 years of drought, you did, phlucking ignorant azzholes.

By the way I am 63 and still don't need you Kalifonia BS to survive. You ignorant phluckers aren't the center of the universe except in your own ignorant minds.

You are right you don't need California to survive, much like I damn sure don't need Nebraska. I damn sure don't need some ignorant son of a bitch in Nebraska telling me about California. You don't know [bleep] about this country. I will admit it is f##ked up, but it got that way from all the people moving here and looking for a free ride. Spics? I know some good ones and just like the trailer trash there are some bad ones. Chinks? I don't personally know any, but I imagine the same applies. People from Nebraska would be the same. I think you probably would fall into the trailer trash category. Surprised you have lived 63 yrs and someone hasn't killed you you mouthy son of a bitch. Your turn lol.

LMAO at that. Funny thing is a couple little yellow bastids tried to do just that back in 71, more than once and didn't get the job done.

They were better men than you.

All of the bickering aside, this is another example of the people in this country living beyond their means.

Lack of water during a seasonal drought is really no different than a person defaulting on debt after being loosing their job and having to get by with less pay.

It is happening over and over and over. Now they are trying to rob Peter to pay Paul. This house of cards is going to fall and fall hard.

Swifty,

any messicans in Nebraska? If so, what are they doing there?

No state has a corner on big business bringing in cheap labor, that I know of.

Carry on with the fight though, I just wanted to interject a very temporary bit of fact.

Sycamore

Boy arent you just the friendly type

Hawk, lol I am actually very friendly. Just get tired of every swing dick lumping everyone in California together. That would be like saying everyone in your state is an idiot. I realize California has a lot of problems and the majority is very liberal. I would bet that of the 9000 people in my county, there are probably no ore than 100 liberals and most of them are employed full time with the forest service or the blm. The county I was raised in the percentage is a little more, but the rural counties of Calif. are for the most part very conservative. Southern Cal has taken our water for years. There are a few others on this board that would like to see Calif. divided, I for one. It is not going to happen though as we are grossly out numbered. I have hunted and worked in 3 or 4 western states and have always been accepted. All western states have their problems. Montana has Missoula, Nevada has Las Vegas and Reno, Idaho has Moscow and Haley, Oregon has Portland and most of the coast, Washington has Seattle. Trouble is California is a hell of a lot bigger. ED

Well, may I suggest you tone down your friggin attitude. I could say that this used to be a very enjoyable site, until d!ckheads showed up and ruined it with their attitudes.

You say you are very friendly, yet you cuss folks out and say you are surprised that someone hasnt been killed....Kind of hard to believe you are friendly when you come off like that.

You arent the only one around here with an opinion. Accept others, whether you agree with them or not.

Of the 53 seats California has in the House of Represntatives only 15 are currently Republican held. So less than 30% of California is not represented in Congress by liberals. And no elected State Officers are Republicans. Are all Californians liberals? No. But the majority vote for liberals. It's essentially a one party State.

Hawk I apologize, my tirade was only aimed at one. He more or less said I was an arrogant idiot. I don't take that lightly and it escalated from there. If I offended anyone else I am sorry. I will keep my thoughts to myself from here on out.

LOL, Davis Creek, Cali. is about as close as you can
get to NOT being in Cali.

You two a having a helluva cat fight! Your both providing much more heat than light on the subject of California water

Just the Almonds...

Link

Wasteful use of water but when you can get a 30% return on your investment... who cares about water conservation.


Phil

Risk assessment, growers take a risk planting a permanent crop where water is hard to come by. Some of those that have been in the game for a while probably have already won the late comers might lose and lose big, time will tell. One thing we as businessmen don't need is the Government telling us what crops to grow. Let the profit, loss, risk and consequences take care of that.

You might want to do some research on just how much the US needs the economy of California (as in - our contribution to Federal tax is given to the states that cannot pay their own way (most of the south, etc.). Plus - an awful lot of the food eaten in other states comes from here.

A collapse of the California economy would be VERY VERY bad for the US.

Just in, and this decision if upheld might have repercussions all across the country.

Link

A tiered rate system illegal... here that's the way our water, gas, and electric is paid.

Gives those with no intention of conserving a free pass!


Phil