Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 2 fliers in each 5-shot group

I have a new-to-me rifle that consistently puts 3 out of 5 shots in an inch with the other 2 generally above and to the side, resulting in a 1 1/2 to 2 inch group.

Any idea of where to start?

It could be informative to shoot a ten shot group, letting the barrel cool a couple of minutes between shots. See what the "cloud" looks like.

What gun?
What sights?
What stock?
Is it bedded and free floated?
Are the fliers the last two shots, the first two, or random?

Shots 1,2,3 an inch and shots 4 & 5 outside the group, or are the "fliers" random and are in no particular order?

Fixed it for ya.

Rem 700 in .243, factory synthetic stock, Bushnell 10x Elite scope.

3 different factory loads: Winchester 100gr, Remington 100gr and Hornady (I think 95gr).

Regrettably, I did not note the order of shots.

You didn't answer all of snypers questions. I'd also want to know if you loctited the bases down and what type you used? A cheap factory synthetic stock may be tapping the barrel and changing harmonics and if it is not bedded, it could have an affect on your accuracy. These few things can cause "flyers" very easily...

Here's where I start:

1. Is everything tight?

2. Is that barrel free floated?

The First place I start is with a thorough de-coppering. I seems like such a simple thing, but is cheap.
A 2" group doesn't seem all that bad to ME, considering that you are starting with an untouched (prolly) rifle, and factory ammo.
I am saying nothing of YOUR ability, yet.
"Mapping" the shot pattern will give you a place to look, too. If the pattern is random, you MAY have to look for another load, manufacture and weight.
Are you going to reload at some later date?
Have fun,
Gene

The rear trigger guard screw was quite loose, and the one at the front was only slightly tightened. I just had some trigger work done by my gunsmith and I should have checked to see if the screws were tight before firing it.

The stock is a mess. It is tighter against the barrel on the right side than on the left, it is not free floated (2 pressure pads right at the tip), and I can pull the end of the stock away from the barrel roughly 1/32 to 1/16 inch with only finger pressure. Also, the action is not glass bedded.

Looks like you've identified some opportunities for improvement.

Start with free floating the barrel. That usually produces the greatest improvement for the least work. If that doesn't provide the improvement you are looking for you will need to decide what you want to do about the stock. The low cost solution is to bed it yourself, or you may choose to invest in more rigid stock.

Anyone know the torque figures for attaching the stock to the barreled action? I'm guessing it should be quite tight for the forearm screw and the rear trigger guard screw, but just snug for the forward trigger guard screw.

Torque ranges from 65 inch pounds for an HS Precision, on down.

On faulty bedding, there is no figure. Adding torque may make it worse.

If it was my gun, I do as other posters have suggested, I've free float it. I'd also glass bed it and then concern myself with torque. If it was pillared, I'd go around 45 inch pounds, just bedded, probably 25-30. I'd make sure the action wasn't in a bind, that the box mag didn't bind the action. I'd make sure the trigger didn't touch anything.

Agree with the comments on the scope, expept I never loctite screws, just tighten them, but not "farmer tight". IIRC, around 15-20 inch pounds is recommended.

Let us know what you find as we all learn from such exercises.

DF

I removed the stock screws and discovered the barreled action can be moved back and forth about 1/32 inch in the stock.

I'll free-float the barrel, bed the recoil lug and tang, make sure the screws are all tight and try again!

Shim the stock the way you want it to go then heat it up with a hair dryer from the chamber out, and let it cool. Get it as hot as you can.

Before you do all that take one of those palstic clips used on bread wrappers or a piece of credit card and place between the front of the action at the screw and stock. This would lift the barrel and get it away from the stock. Tighten the action screws down and then shoot it that way.

If it is the last two shots of 5 shot string,the barrel is probably warming up and expanding just enough to have the stock put pressure on it.

Just make sure it isn't too warm a barrel by itself though.

I know a lot of guys that have dianosed their problem like that and then never did anything more other than leaving the plastic shim in there.

Those pressure points are evil. I'd go with the bread bag trick with decent torque on the action screws. I had a similar experience with a VTR, I had to get extra long screws to get it out of the stock far enough so the barrel would not touch, the stock was cast crooked. Bending the stock straight was not a pleasant experience, but I got away with it without doing any visible damage.
By the way, the groups shrunk from 2 inches plus to in the sixes somewhere with the first handload I tried.

I agree with shimming it for some testing

I have a Model 7 6mm that I shimmed, and it shot so well afterwards that I never bothered to take it back apart to bed it

I think it's going to solve all your problems

I cleaned the barrel until it was mirror-bright, just to eliminate one other possible influence on group size.

I dropped in the bread wrapper tag and the barrel is free-floated back to about 1 inch ahead of the action, according to the dollar bill test. However, sliding a business card along the barrel channel still shows the stock closer to the barrel on the right side than on the left.

In addition, the stock is so flexible I can press it against the barrel with just fingertip pressure.

And more importantly - don't I still have to glass bed the recoil lug to prevent fore-and-aft movement?

I'd just drop a shim behind the recoil lug until you get a chance to see if floating the barrel has cured the fliers.

If it has (and I feel like it has) then you can bed the lug and action, and possibly open up the barrel channel on the stock

Another thing you can do is to stiffen up the forearm.
Most of those plastic stocks a have channel or a series of channels running down the center of the forearm.

Get a carbon fiber arrow and lay it in that channel or cut it to lay in these series of channels and fill the voids with Brownells Acruglass (not the gel).If the voids are big,you can mix polymer beads that air soft pistols use with the acrulglass to keep the weight down.

Also.Fix one thing at a time.You will learn more

BTW.The old dollar bill clearance is not sufficient with todays thin sporter barrels.They whip around more than that. I typically use about .020 clearance.

No expert here by any means BUT one other though they comes to me is how you are resting the rifle in what ever rest you are using when shooting. If you place that rifle in the rest more towards the rear and then on a couple shots the rest is more towards the front of the forearm where you say it is most flexible then you could be putting upward pressure on the barrel causing the fliers. I would make sure that with that stock that you support it as far back as you can to eliminate that variable.

There is a list of ~20 commonly recited accuracy rituals on the internet that will not affect the 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards goal.
There is a list of ~12 commonly recited accuracy rituals on the internet that WILL affect the 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards goal.

We can order the effective 12 in order of frequency of "that was the problem" or we can order them in order of how big a problem they can create.

Going with the probability:
1) screws attaching scope bases to receiver are loose.
This is the cause to over 50% of the cases of some shots over here followed by some shots over here at the range for both my ~100 center fire rifles, and for those I help with my tools at the range.
2) Barrel is heating up and warping
3) Wind gusts
4) Barrel is heating up and touching stock.
5) action screws are loose
6) you are pulling shots. Practice keeping cross hairs on bullseye while dry firing
7) You have inconsistent ammo
8) Copper fouling in bore

Bed. Float. Trigger.

Tight screws. Think antelope sniper said that.

It's a Remington. It should shoot.

I notice the OP is firing factory stuff. Check ammo for run out and shoot the "good" stuff.

Bedding is not ging to help the plastic stock that is not straight. Got to fix that first.

Just replace the plastic stock with a better one, because they are nothing but junk and not worth the effort to try and fix .

That's for sure. Thought he had that figured out by now.

Nope. Per OP "I dropped in the bread wrapper tag and the barrel is free-floated back to about 1 inch ahead of the action, according to the dollar bill test. However, sliding a business card along the barrel channel still shows the stock closer to the barrel on the right side than on the left.

In addition, the stock is so flexible I can press it against the barrel with just fingertip pressure."

Maybe you aren't seeing fliers at all, just the true grouping ability for five shoots with this rifle and the factory ammo tried. Many untuned factory rifles with factory ammo just aren't capable of better accuracy than you are seeing.

The only way I have ever got $50 injection moulded stocks to shoot well is to make under cuts and fill with so much epoxy the stock is very heavy.

I take them off and throw them away.

Recently had a rifle that shot many good groups but one group out of every 3 or 4 confounded me with a 3 inch flier.

In exasperation I tightened the action screws so fargin tight I hurt my fingers just to see if that worked.......

Instant 0.75 moa groups and very consistent.


Buggered if I know.

With a new barrel.

As your rifle warms up, the barrel is shifting. Bedding first...

I'm not much into shimming, etc.

I just free float the barrel, glass the action. It never hurts and often helps.

And, I'd look at the barrel thru my Hawkeye borescope. A pretty bore doesn't guarantee accuracy, but when there's a problem, the scope can sometimes help diagnose the problem.

And, of course, trigger and scope. Sometimes it's good to see groups by another shooter, just to eliminate as many variables as possible.

DF

The OP's rifle is a factory rifle that needs tuning.Noting unusual about that.

Have a M70 Classic 7 rem mag here.It's in a Borden RR stock and bedding seems good.No action truing has been done;chamber and barrel are factory spec.Mounts are fie and scope is proven on another rifle.

In several range sessions,and 4-5 different loads with different bullets,it does the same things...two "in",one "out". Or three out of 5 in and two "out",in random order. I couldn't find a load that made me want to bring it out to 300-500 yards to try.If I have to work that hard to get a rifle to shoot it isn't worth the energy.

When rifles do that they are "sick" or in my slang I call them a "POS" because assembly sucks.

I won't put any more effort into the thing until it's "fixed". The barrel may be fine but it does not matter if the rifle is not assembled correctly.



So....I'm driving out to the smith today for new barrel, (I have one here just for these reasons), action truing, bedding,square off bolt face, lugs,etc etc. It will shoot when I get it back.I've seen proper assembly fix more erratic rifles than anything else.

Bob,

Interesting. Wonder what would happen if you had the factory barrel set back, rechambered following an action blueprinting.

I know, neither would I go to that expense and trouble without replacing the barrel, but was wondering what you thought.

DF

Plastic bread wrapper tab in the recoil lug recess cured the shifting back-and-forth of the receiver in the stock. Another one at the forward action screw raised the barrel enough to free-float.

Removed scope and tightened bases. Each base had one screw that could be tightened a little less than 1/8 turn. Remounted scope and checked ring screws - snug but not tight.

Put real pressure into tightening action screws - so much that crappy plastic trigger guard now has a crack at the screw - going to have to replace that!

5 different brands of ammo to test: Federal blue box 100gr, Fusion 95gr, Win 100gr Power Point, Hornady 100gr Interlock and Fed Premium 95gr Nosler BT.

Off to the range!

Good Luck.

I look forward to your report!

DF: I bet that would probably work. But we will never know.

Like you said I would not go through all that for the factory tube when I had the Brux bought and paid for sitting here. Might as well use it.

I just got back. The smith will do the action work, bed if needed and install the new barrel. I think it will work out well.


Czech: Good luck! Hope that works for you.

Here was the initial problem: typically 3 shots close, 2 spreading the group to 1 1/2 inch or more, regardless of choice of factory ammo.

Here are the best results AFTER taking the steps I listed previously:

Federal Fusion 95gr, less than an inch:


Rem Core-Lokt 100gr, less than an inch:


Two separate groups with Fed Blue Box 100gr, well under an inch:


Not all ammo choices showed improvement, though. Hornady 100gr Interlocks spread out to 2+ inches, and Federal Premium with 95gr NBTs were 1 5/8" at the best.

Still, I'm VERY happy with the improvement shown with really minimum effort - dropping a bread wrapper tag into the recoil lug recess to eliminate play in the action, and using another one to elevate and free-float the barrel. Oh, and REALLY tightening the stock screws, of course.

I'll be interested to see if the changes become permanent once I sand out the barrel channel and glass bed the recoil lug. Working on the barrel channel will also give me a chance to reduce any tightness on one side of the barrel from the sloppy factory fit of the stock.

Thanks, all!!!

Awesome!

Fix the mechanical slop and good things start to happen! Happy for you.

God news.Sometimes KISS is the best method.Now you know what areas to work on rather than just digging into to it and hoping you fixed the problem.

BTW,I take no credit for the bread wrapper clip idea. Mule Deer posted that quite some time ago. I had always used a piece of old credit card. Those little clips with the hole already in them sure fit the bill when you can make your front action screw fit right thru them .

Yes, they are super easy to use. I also discovered that my trigger needs to be lightened a bit and my shooting technique needs to be tweaked - I was pulling a couple of shots as I tightened up on the trigger.

I should have remembered the "squeeze" technique where you only use your trigger finger and thumb to fire the rifle, tightening up in a direct line with the axis of the stock.

I also discovered that wind has a major effect on groups, especially with the light bullets of a .243. When I didn't pay attention to wind speed and direction, my group size quickly doubled.

Interesting on the plastic stock comments... I've got about 3 of them that I have not replaced yet. One of them for a buddy in 338 win mag, that will shoot 3 shot groups repeatably under half an inch with the right loads... The other 2 shoot reliably inch size groups. Neither of those is bedded or floated.

While I don't think plastic are the best by far, if bedded and floated out correctly, unless you apply sling tension, then they have always done well enough if searching for MOA basically...

I have a similar rifle, a .243 ADL Youth model that I swapped out the stock for a full sized camo plastic (factory) stock. I shimmed it up so that the barrel is floated, sanded off the little bumps at the end of the barrel channel, lightened up the trigger to just under 3#. Put a VX 1 3X9 on it in Burris rings and factory bases (tightened up). It will shoot 3) 70gr TNT hollow points into 3/4" or less at 100 yards consistently but I have yet to get 100gr Hornady's to consistently shoot into less than 1 1/2". I picked up some Nosler Ballistic Tip 95gr bullets to try next. I know the rifle is up to the task I just need to find the right load with a heavier deer bullet.