Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 444 and 450

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"As you can see,the 45-70 shoots as flat as the 444 Marlin with a 300 grain bullet compared to a 270 grain bullet in the 444 which gives the 45-70 644 more foot pounds of energy(FPE) in doing so.I am not knocking the 444 Marlin in any way as it is a good caliber but whatever the 444 can do,the 45-70 can equal or better."

Jayco

The 45-70 can even rattle you cage harder!

I have taken the time to read every post in this thread and I just want to say that JACKFISH is correct with his information period. Pick your game and then match your bullet and velocity simply put. I once had a Cowboy 45/70 but got rid of it as it was really NOT the hunting rifle I thought I could use in the woods. The Marlin 1895 model is a hunters rifle and either caliber will bring home the bacon or elk steaks.

Now I own both a Marlin 1895 in a .444 caliber and a Marlin 1895 in the 45-70 caliber. Both are outstanding rifles in the field or dark timber. I use the .444 on the smaller game and the 45-70 on the bigger animals.

The 45/70 goes with me in the saddle scabbard when elk hunting. No more trying to get the rifle & scope out of a scabbard when a bear or moose is at your backside.

Those levers come out like a knife going through hot butter! Either one of these rifles can be used on all game up to the size of a big moose, bull elk or grizzly bear.

This reminds me of the ol 30-06 vs. 270 argument, no one will ever convince the other, both think theirs works, both are right.
As nice as the 444 is, it is limited by its choice of projectiles. Finding heavily constructed .429" bullets is more difficult than choosing proper bullets for the .450/.45-70.
Of course, if one is determined to avoid handloading, then a couple boutique manufacturers produce loads they swear are great-together with the commensurate price tag.
Truth is, the 444 will always be relegated to lighter bullets of less than optimal construction. This does not mean that it will not work, it means that it will not work as well as the .450/.45-70.
The sheer knockdown power of the larger caliber cannot be dismissed,and the variety of bullet weights and velocities truly make both the .45 cal. cartridges extremely flexible and practical.
The .45-70 has been declared dead as often as the .45 Colt. The .450 is really just legitimizing what handloaders have done with the 45-70 since smokeless powder became available.
If one predominately chooses to face down lighter, thin skinned game all three will work quite well within their limitations. If the menu includes larger and more formidable adversaries, then the top choices are the .45s.

You can only kill something so dead, and so quickly.
The .444 will will most critters in their tracks. The .444 is as powerful as many .40-caliber classic African cartridges.

The 265-gr Hornady and Speer 270-gr Gold Dot are tough bullets designed for the .444 rifles.

Beretta, Rizzini, Krieghoff and Merkel build double rifles in .444 for dangerous game hunting up close on the ground. These rifles have been used on African lion, 500-lb European boars, l,000 pound bear, and 2,000 pound Cape buffalo and water buffalo.

And stunts all. For the one manufacturer that builds a 444 rifle, I wouldn't characterize that effort as "for dangerous game." The 444 Marlin is not a dangerous game round and the 45-70 is marginal at best. They sure wasn't usin' a 265 grain Hornady or 270 grain Speer for those feats!

The 444 Marlin is not listed as a caliber available in Beretta, Krieghoff or Merkel rifles. The Rizzini is not chambered for any round that could be considered adequate for dangerous game, except for maybe the 9.3x74R, which again is marginal at best.

Jackfish and Tonk, I hear what you are saying, but for me, the 265 Hornady, 270 Speer, 300 Hornady and a good hard cast lead bullet over 300 grains would meet all my envisioned hunting needs with a 444, and would not thump me as hard as a hot loaded 45/70 or a .450 Marlin. So while the bullet choices for the 444 are not as broad as for the 45 caliber, they are good enough for what most of us will want to do with a big bore lever action.

Well said, Dogger.
How many bullets do you need in a .444?
240 for deer.
265 or 270 for bear, moose, elk, big boar
300 gr cast for big moose and big bear.

Then perhaps you shouldn't imply that the 444 Marlin is adequate for African dangerous game.

Jackfish, I hope no one intepreted my posts to imply that the 444 is adequate for African game. If you look back thru my posts it is obvious i did not state such a thing. Brian Pearce has demonstrated the devastating effects of a properly loaded 45/70 on cape buffalo. i would take his selection and experience to the bank. the fact that he used a 45/70 instead of a 444 speaks volumes to me, because he is fond of both.

Sorry Dogger, perhaps my rant was better directed towards Lee24. I apologize.

Rant on. I was answering the original poster, who is planning to hunt in South Dakota. I used the fact that a .444 will kill, and has killed, dangerous game from bears to buffalo as evidence that it is sufficient for any bears, moose, elk or wild boar inside 200 yards in North America. So will the .30-06.

The .444's stopping ability on angry bears is proven in records keep by the Alaska DNR, US Forest Service and USFWS. I bought my .444 from its original owner, who carried it for protection in Alaska, and used it to flatten a 450-lb black bear which charged him, using the 240-gr Remington ammo.

The .375 H&H is a lot hotter than a .444 Marlin, and it is inadequate for some situations. A .470 Nitro Express doesn't do much good on an angry big critter if you miss bone. There are plenty of recorded instances of just such "bullet failures".

To me, the .444 and .45-70 with reasonable loads are a toss up.
Get the rifle that appeals to you. Personally, I would stay away from porting and short barrels. 22 inches or reduces a lot of apparent recoil and noise.

Hey JACKFISH!!! I forgive YA....LOL

Now Dogger, I own and shoot bot those calibers .444 Marlin and 45/70 Marlin rifle. If I were going to shoot grizzly bear with a .444 Marlin, it would be loaded to the hilt with powder and those BEARTOOTH hardcast bullets in 325 grainers simply put.

The 45/70 would also be loaded with BEARTOOTH hardcast bullets in the Piledriver version. It will take down African game by the way and several have done so. However, I myself would not use either rifle on African game. I have model 70 Winchester bolt action rifles in various calibers from a .338, 375-Wby, .416 Remington, .458-Lott and a .475 magnum with a 600 grn bullet. Just so you know ok!

Man, this IS the new incarnation of the 30-06 vs. 270 debate!!!
How many bullets do you need? Well, folks, you need only one, and it darn well better be the right one.
Stopping a 450 lbs black bear is ok, but how about stopping a 650 lbs BEAR?
Yep, its all relative. Except for one thing. The heavy .45 Cal.s have the best bullets, period.
I know all about emotional favourites. From the gal with the blonde curly hair, to the favoured cartridges. Heck, I love the 33 WCF, and the 348 WCF. It is an attachment that does not hear the word nay.
The simple reason the 444 stays around is because it has a following of vocal, and fanatical interest. The reality is that 44 cal. pistol bullets will never be more than a stop gap for rifle performance.
Sure, the 444 puts down game, sure the 444 can be made to work in tight spaces. This does not, will not, cannot, mean it is anything approaching the best choice.
The 30 WCF is beloved by many, and it is often used to take Elk in my area, but this does not mean the 30 is an Elk cartridge.
The 444 was for a long time the only big bore levergun cartridge offered in new arms. Marlin did us all a service by keeping the big bore levergun alive. Yet Marlin did the unthinkable, and really unleashed stopping power when they released the 45-70 and the 450.
So, please, save the sagely somber tones about how the 444 stops a locomotive at 1,000 paces. The 444 works, but the .45s just work better.

I've owned the 444, 45-70, and the 450. I have come to prefer the two 45 caliber cartridges. Of your two choices, the 450 is the way I would go. YMMV.

MAK........ You need to gather just a little more information from the Beartooth Bullet Sight, when it comes to degrading the capabilities of the .444 Marlin understand.

Now I have no axe to grind because I own a couple of those .444 Marlins and 45/70 models. Yes, the 45/70 is the big brother of the household but the .444 Marlin loaded with those 325 grn. weighted Beartooth Bullets will handle anything in North America to a tea! Now that would include any 1000-lb bear you want to send to my backyard savvy.

Hey All,

I love my 444s and the power it has as "Thunder from the God's" on whitetails...

45/70's have always been another favorite of mine, it has been around forever and will always have a special place in my aresenal...

This season, however I am going with something new... A 450M and I'll carry it with me in the North Georgia Bear woods opening day of Bear Season... Loaded to the BORE (pardon the pun) with Hornady 350 Grain Flat Points...

If that does not knock him down, my side arm is a 460ES with Hornady 200 Grain SST's... I'll just have to wait til I get a whiff of his breath before I unload it into him...

I do not handload some I am a slave to the factory loads...

Thinking about getting some Buffalo Bore 430's - KA-BOOM!!!

Happy Hunting Y'all!!!

Ron

that about sums up my feelings also!
but Id add in a BROWNING BLR as I've found a 450 marlin caliber BLR exceptionally accurate