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I have a Savage Model 23D Hornet with excessive headspace, are these safe to convert to a K-Hornet?
The rifle has extra holes in the action that have been welded and it's been re-blued so it has no collector value.
Also were these .223 bore or .224? Twist 1/16?


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Since the 22 Hornet is a rimmed cartridge, doesn't it headspace on the rim rather than on the shoulder?

Either way, if your 'smith sets the barrel back a full turn and cuts a new chamber, either regular or K, your headspace problem goes away. K seems the logical way to go on a non-collectible Hornet.

My Savage Hornet experience is limited to a 19H, a couple of boogered-up 23Ds, and a couple of 340/342s. None had triggers worth writing home about and only the 19H remains to gather dust.

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K-alterations (best performed in this instance as 260RG suggested) are ok. I wouldn't mind having one myself, but I'm aware that it won't make a .222 out of a Hornet like some Rubes claim it will. The little more velocity gain one can expect won't extend the practical range of the Hornet much beyond what it's good for in original form. What one gets though is somewhat better case life, which is no small consideration in this day and age of Hornet brass shortages. If one is content to shoot loads (either cast or jacketed) in the 16-1800fps range for fun at the range, and hold the full snort stuff for varmint safaris, case life can be virtually never ending even with the standard chambering, making it a fairly moot point IMO. Still and all, like I said, I wouldn't mind having another one.

The only "K" I ever had was an M2 Springfield conversion. Pretty sweet, but evidently not sweet enough to stay in my harem for very long. I probably had my head turned by yet another long-legged vixen...

A gun shop owner friend has a M43 Winchester re-chambered to the K-Hornet for which I think his resistance to my conniving to buy it is waning...

To the OP: I would suss out the reason for excessive headspace before going into any alterations. Bolt set back, perhaps? Also, not being conversant re: M23 centerfires, I'm almost ashamed to ask: aren't their barrels and receivers one piece like on the rimfires? If so, you're pretty much screwed then.



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Yes, the barrel and receiver are one piece. The chamber is generous in length and girth. Had an amateur gunsmith take a look and he said normal headspace was .065, no-go was .070 and mine is .090+. How he arrived at those measurements I don't know, headspace is off the rim. I put two pieces of tape on the cartridge head and the bolt closed just fine. Not good.
Talked about shimming the bolt but he advised against it.
I guess it is what it is, a wall hanger or a parts gun.


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It has been so long since I looked at a Savage 23 B/C/D, I'd forgotten that the centerfire versions had one-piece actions and receivers like the rimfire versions. I'd vote for shimming the bolt face is the cost isn't excessive or, if you could find one, maybe try a different bolt. The rear locking lug design seems prone to setback and the associated headspace issues.

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Shimming the two-piece bolt with a STEEL shim has always been the fix for this chronic problem with the 23D, and it seems to me that it is the only practical one.

The action wasn't designed for more pressure than the standard Hornet of the time (and maybe not even that, given the number of shimmed ones out there....) and certainly not for the extra pressure you can cook up in the various "improved" versions.

We now talk about "K-izing" Hornets to "get better case life," but back in the day they were generally looking for more case CAPACITY and thus more velocity--and more pressure.

I don't still have a copy, but if I remember correctly (maybe not) Frank de Haas had something to say about this in his book on "Bolt Action Rifles." He may have even described how to shim this action properly.

Anybody got a copy to have a look-see?


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Yeah, the whole case life thing is based upon stoking the K-Hornet at the same performance level as the original chambering. Up the ante to stretch velocity above and beyond and you're right back where you started, but with admittedly somewhat better case life due to the un-tapered case shape. Is it enough better to go through the expense of having a chamber opened up? Only the man who owns one can say if it matters- to him. Like I said, I wouldn't kick one out of bed for eating crackers, but to me the hundred bucks or so it would cost to do it would buy a boatload of new Hornet brass even in this day and age, so I'll stick with it.


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Rear lug actions like the Savage 23s and Winchester 43s have a track record of headspace issues when chambered in 22 Hornet and 218 Bee in the Winchester 43. Both actions worked fine with the 25-20 and 32-20.

Same/same for the Savage 40/45 Super Sporters chambered in 30-06.

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Dug out my copy of "Bolt Action Rifles, Revised Edition", by Frank de Haas; his comments on the Model 23 headspace were as follows: "The Model 23 was also prone to develop excessive headspace, and I believe this was due largely to the fact that neither the receiver nor the bolt sleeve were hard enough to resist wear. However, I discovered that this problem, when it develops, is quite easily taken care of by making and placing a washer of the correct thickness between the bolt sleeve and the bolt body". I've got a 23D from the mid-thirties which has no problems yet. I'm the 3rd owner; my buddy got it from the original owner in 1966 and I've had it since about 1997. I load for it but it doesn't get hot rodded or "K'd" because I've heard of those headspace issues. Mr. de Haas also mentions that the 23-D can be rechambered to the K-Hornet but that it is not much of a choice. Sounds like he wasn't very fond of it in a 23 series.

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Thanks for the additional info.


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Good heavens, it sounds like my memory wasn't too far off!

Thanks for posting this! Making such a washer frin scratch is probably a job for a machinist, but if a guy had a good mike and searched the internet, he could probably find something to start with very close "off the shelf" that could be used as a "blank" to grind down to spec. Also for Stevens 19H with headspace problem.


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Just get a small variety pack of steel shim stock and cut a washer with a pair of scissors.


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ok so why not do the k and handload to hs off the shoulder? Wonder how they set hs at the factory?


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C'mon, gnoahhh, where's the DRAMA in that fix!

Can't we figger out a way to make it WAY more painful and expensive????


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Originally Posted by Mesa
Good heavens, it sounds like my memory wasn't too far off!

Thanks for posting this! Making such a washer frin scratch is probably a job for a machinist, but if a guy had a good mike and searched the internet, he could probably find something to start with very close "off the shelf" that could be used as a "blank" to grind down to spec. Also for Stevens 19H with headspace problem.


Stevens 19H?

Mine says Savage 19H.

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Originally Posted by Mesa
C'mon, gnoahhh, where's the DRAMA in that fix!

Can't we figger out a way to make it WAY more painful and expensive????


Well, there are some folks sitting around the 'Campfire whom I wouldn't trust with a pair of scissors in their hand...


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by Mesa
C'mon, gnoahhh, where's the DRAMA in that fix!

Can't we figger out a way to make it WAY more painful and expensive????


Well, there are some folks sitting around the 'Campfire whom I wouldn't trust with a pair of scissors in their hand...


There are people sitting around 24HCF who I wish that I'd never had the opportunity to "meet". Name calling, profanity, rude and disrespectful behavior from people who are apparently too inarticulate to argue a point in a civil manner. Apparently I've been tagged as a "Fudd" by some over my lack of interest in Class 3.

Just call me Elmer and I'll pursue those wascally wabbits!

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"We must be vewwy quiet!"

Could've used Elmer's help last night. While sitting outside at dusk enjoying a cold Woodchuck Cider and watching the sun set over the rooftops of the Naval Academy, the neighborhood coyote slunk past. And me without a gun at hand. I swear though if I had been sitting any closer that dammed anvil would've flattened me too.

"Badabadabada that's all, folks!"

(The coyote really did saunter past me. From now on I'll be sure to bring a light rifle outside with me. I may need help with bail money though- shooting around here is verböten, and if I miss (hah!) the bullet would end up ricocheting around the Academy.


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Fortunately I still have the blunt-ended scissors from my construction-paper-and-library-paste days at the Grange School in 1949. One teacher, 13 kids, and 8 grades. When you could read, you were DONE. (No wonder I had a little trouble with college algebra...)


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I wonder if the head space was set at the factory by just using a set length reamer and a stop to the receiver back?

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