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I thought hard about the 7-08 as I can get Lapua brass for it, but thought it may come up a touch short for Elk. I would rather have one rifle for everything from antelope to Elk. I want said rifle to be good out to about 600 which is my max comfort zone when conditions are perfect. The 7-08 Im thinking is really pushing it for elk at those ranges, Hope would disagree with this conclusion, as would I, but that was with a 7-08ai and the distance was only 318 yds, and our experience is a grand total of one. I have a hard time seeing much difference with a 280.
"Blessed is the man whose wife is his best friend - especially if she likes to HUNT!"
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."
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Fill in the blanks, correct where needed:
162 Amax
7-08=2,700 FPS
7-08AI=2,800 FPS
280=2,800 FPS
280AI=2,900FPS
7RM=3,000 FPS
7STW=?
7Mash=?
At what pressure and bbl length does a 7mm08ai equal a .280rem? Handloaded ai in a 28in bbl vs factory loaded 280 in a 22in maybe. I load for a 7-08ai and a 284 win (280 ballistic twin). I would give the 284 win a 50-75 fps edge over a similarly barreled 7-08ai loaded to similar pressures. The 7-08ai is just enough better than the standard to make it worth it. At least for some of us loonies.
"Blessed is the man whose wife is his best friend - especially if she likes to HUNT!"
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."
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Wrong. The Mashburn will move a 160-162 at 3200-3250. Ask anyone who has one. Ok, if you just want to play with numbers, a long throated 7RM will do 3100-3150 with a 160 without pushing too hard, and a 7Wby will hit 3200, so we're still talking maybe 100 FPS vs. the SAAMI rounds. BTW, Dober is breaking in a new Mashburn barrel. He wanted me to tell you that his FF load is doing 3160 with a 139 gr ....we both thought..."Sure seems like a 280AI to me!" That's the physics thing I was talking about. Bigger cases drive the same bullets faster  I was never equating the 280AI to the Mashburn and you know it. My only question for you is why an additional 100 FPS from the Mashburn is so much more important than the 100 FPS gained from AI'ing a 280. It's a tough question.
FÜCK Jeff_O!
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I love my 280AI, very accurate and kills the hell outta whatever I shoot
Last edited by KH1473; 05/24/15.
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Why not! I've owned almost all the commercial 7s out there. Nothing wrong with any of them. the 280AI and 7-08 are my favorites. The 7-08 was also a hunting partner's favorite, so I'm looking for another right now!
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right."
Henry Ford
If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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+1
I haven't owned a 7STW, and only briefly owned a RUM, but the 7mm's are all good. Just pick the one that suits you.
Both the 7-08 and 280AI fit my needs very well.
FÜCK Jeff_O!
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Fill in the blanks, correct where needed:
162 Amax
7-08=2,700 FPS
7-08AI=2,800 FPS
280=2,800 FPS
280AI=2,900FPS
7RM=3,000 FPS
7STW=?
7Mash=?
At what pressure and bbl length does a 7mm08ai equal a .280rem? Handloaded ai in a 28in bbl vs factory loaded 280 in a 22in maybe. If you have some actuals, post.
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Wrong. The Mashburn will move a 160-162 at 3200-3250. Ask anyone who has one.
BTW, Dober is breaking in a new Mashburn barrel. He wanted me to tell you that his FF load is doing 3160 with a 139 gr ....we both thought..."Sure seems like a 280AI to me!" Bob i typically respect you and Dobers opinion but you both seem to love to hate on the 280 AI while pimping the very similar 7 Mashburn. IIRC correctly you have stated in the past that you've never loaded for or shot the .280 AI yet you dog it why? I've shot the AI for about 10 years now and have had 4 in total, all 24" barrels and all can got +/- 3250 fps with the 140 TTSX while about .5gr book max loads. No pressure signs, minimal brass growth and tight primer pockets even after 5 firings. Both of my current Ackleys shoot the 160 NAB over 60gr of R22 at 3025fps (Rem mountain punched out) and 3055 fps (custom pacnor). So comparing my AI to your Mashburn both with 24" barrels and using your 3250 speed and a 300 yd zero: Your Mashburn arrives at 500yds with 2400 fps, 1975 ft/lbs and 1.2 mils of adjustment. My AI gets to 500 with 2260 fps, 1814 ft/lbs and 1.4 mils. At 1000yds your Mashburn load is at 1700 fps, 1025 ft/lbs and 5.6 mils adjustment. My AI is doing 1590fps, has 930 ft/lbs and needs 6.2 Mils. I doubt any animal that walks is killed better at 500 with the Mashburns extra 161 ft/lbs let alone the 95 ft/lbs advantage at 1000 yds. Yep the Masburn beats the A.I at any range due to more powder but in the end that doesnt account fo much. That said the AI is far from the slouch you, Dober and Safariman appear to repeatedly claim it is. With current optics technologies such as turrets the differences are pretty much mute, just a few more clicks. The A.I. though burns about 12 grs of powder less (IIRC its about 72 gr of powder in the mashburn with a 160) and will hold 4 rds down versus 3 in the 7 RM/ Mashburn/ STW etc. With my above load I can get to 1350yds on the glass alone with the SWFA mil-quad reticle currently on it. I have no intentions of trying to make my AI's act like a 7RM. I own/ have owned 7's via 7mm-08, 280, 280AI, 7RM 7 STW, and 7 RUM. All were fun but dont do anything my AI and 7mm-08 still in my safe wont. The AI is differnt just like the Mashburn which is why i chose it. But at the end of the day the Mashburn beats the AI by about 200 fps, the 7Rm by about 100, loses to the STW and RUM by 150-200 fps. Again all minutia and So again i ask why so much hate for the 280 AI sir?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I didn't bring up the Mashburn...you did.
The thread was about the 280AI. I offered comments about why I never saw much use for it, for me. Not enough gain over a 280 to bother with and a 7 RM did the same things easier.
I know all about long throating the 7 Rem Mag for 160's and getting 3100-3150 with a 160,since i was doing that in the 1970's-80's and have had several rifles set up that way and probably have shot a few thousand rounds through them.And killed a pile of game with them. I know the benefits and the downsides having BTDT,
Even given that, you are pushing the cartridge....hard...to places it was not meant to be.
It also makes the cartridge a bit easier to load for and work with.But I also know the neck is short,and if throated to the 160, other bullets have a long jump to the lands. You have fewer options seating bullets.This comes as a result of the makers insistence that it fit a 30/06 length box...meantime tens of thousands are running around with H&H length actions like Rem 700's and post 64 M70's with blocked boxes (all those unreasonably heavy magnum actions that no one can lug up mountains.)
The 7 Rem mag case could use (a) a longer neck and (b) a bit more capacity. The Mashburn fills both those requirements without going over board in capacity. Bullet to land relationship is better,and case capacity is increased enough to nudge velocities into the STW range..with good case life. The Mashburn is a better design,Better mousetrap.
That said, if one wanted to,the Mashburn will also fit a 30/06 length box if you like to seat bullets deeper,just like a 300 Win Mag.If you are constrained by magazine length (like a Montana in 280AI), then you have no option but to seat deep.The reason a Rem 700 is a better "tool" for a 280/280AI.Throat accordingly to your bullet of choice.
Increasing case size to an STW does not buy you "more"...the longer case in a H&H box requires deep bullet seating.Velocities will be very much the same as a Mashburn. You may see a slight gain with the STW but it won't be much and will mostly show only with 175 gr bullets,and with a 26" or longer barrel Guys like Mashburn and Hagel worked this stuff out decades ago.I've seen it myself working with both. Maybe you missed this....Powders change but relationships remain the same.You can read and learn only so much.The rest takes shooting.
The Weatherby needs free bore. If you want that have at it.
Big Stick has lectured endlessly about this relationship between mag box constraints,throat/leade dimensions,seating arrangements with various bullets,etc. Clearly he gets it and people should listen. It isn't always about capacity....some cartridges/rifles are (to paraphrase him) a goat puck out of the box.
It isn't just about speed and capacity...it's about what's "optimum".
Last edited by BobinNH; 05/24/15.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Optimum???? Now I'm confused.
For years you have posted your favorite load in the Mashburn was the 150 BT on 70gr R25 for 3120fps.
My standard everday load in my Ackley is the 150 TTSX over 61.5gr of R22 which nets me 3100 fps on the nose with great brass life.
You mentioned BigStick, which is where i got the idea to build an Ackley. My light one is throated for 150 TTSX, the heavy for 162 Amax at length Larry gave me. That exact 150gr load above is one i got directly from Larry.
P.S. BigStick has said countless times in his posts (preadvent of the WSM) that the 280 A.I. was the best long action 7 going and if stuck wit a magnum bolt face to go no further then 7 RM. H has also repeatedly said that he has owned a 7mm/300 (basically a Mashburn) among most other big 7's and has repeatedly called them all useless goatphukks while reiterating the accolades of the 280 A.I and 7RM.
With the advent of the SAUM and WSM'S he got 280AI/7RM performance in a short action which is where he currently is and singing those praises. Except for his long love of the 223A.I. and now the 6BR.
I'm just guessing that what he meant about mag box constraint, throating and seating isnt what you got from it. I come to this conclusion because myself and several others on this and other boards have built 280AI's set up and throated per Sticks advice which you tried to use against it in your post above.
Last edited by MallardAddict; 05/24/15.
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Nobody ever felt the need to Ackleyerise the 270, so why all the fuss with the 280?
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I never AI'd a caliber solely for speed, i do it for the other advantages.
Kind of like building a 7 Mashburn over a 7 RM. Lol
Last edited by MallardAddict; 05/24/15.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Regardless of claims to the contrary, case capacity matters when it comes to velocity and case life. What a smaller cartridge can do a cartridge with larger case capacity can do as well, at lower pressures. Before I got my chrono (around year 2000-2002), I was shooting my 7mm RM 160g loads at .280 to .280 AI velocities, depending on the bullet and powder. This was because I was getting case/head separations after 5 firings when using max Speer book loads (which have since been reduced). My 7mm RM has a flaw in the chamber that leaves a tiny scratch in extracted cases, allowing for a definitive determination of the number of time a case has been chambered. After backing off a tad to current levels I started getting 18 firings before I got another case-head separation. When I first got my .300WM I built .308 Win equivalent loads, then .30-06 loads, then full-house .300WM loads. The reduced loads gave longer case life, as expected, with excellent accuracy.
My own opinion is if I want to get higher velocity, get a larger case. If you hate case trimming, get an AI or get a larger case and download it to desired levels. Or get a case trimming setup that makes it less of a chore, as I have done. (I modified my "T-handle" RCBS trimmer to run off an electric drill with a nut driver, allowing me to trim around 350-375 cases per hour, including chamfering and deburring by hand, depending on the case.)
Seeking the "optimum" can be an expensive rat hole. I'm getting good case life with my .280 Rem and velocities I can live with. More importantly, I get recoil my daughters can live with. To AI that rifle would provide advantages that are outweighed by the disadvantages. But that is for me - individual mileage may vary.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I didn't bring up the Mashburn...you did.
The thread was about the 280AI. I offered comments about why I never saw much use for it, for me. Not enough gain over a 280 to bother with and a 7 RM did the same things easier.
I know all about long throating the 7 Rem Mag for 160's and getting 3100-3150 with a 160,since i was doing that in the 1970's-80's and have had several rifles set up that way and probably have shot a few thousand rounds through them.And killed a pile of game with them. I know the benefits and the downsides having BTDT,
Even given that, you are pushing the cartridge....hard...to places it was not meant to be.
It also makes the cartridge a bit easier to load for and work with.But I also know the neck is short,and if throated to the 160, other bullets have a long jump to the lands. You have fewer options seating bullets.This comes as a result of the makers insistence that it fit a 30/06 length box...meantime tens of thousands are running around with H&H length actions like Rem 700's and post 64 M70's with blocked boxes (all those unreasonably heavy magnum actions that no one can lug up mountains.)
The 7 Rem mag case could use (a) a longer neck and (b) a bit more capacity. The Mashburn fills both those requirements without going over board in capacity. Bullet to land relationship is better,and case capacity is increased enough to nudge velocities into the STW range..with good case life. The Mashburn is a better design,Better mousetrap.
That said, if one wanted to,the Mashburn will also fit a 30/06 length box if you like to seat bullets deeper,just like a 300 Win Mag.If you are constrained by magazine length (like a Montana in 280AI), then you have no option but to seat deep.The reason a Rem 700 is a better "tool" for a 280/280AI.Throat accordingly to your bullet of choice.
Increasing case size to an STW does not buy you "more"...the longer case in a H&H box requires deep bullet seating.Velocities will be very much the same as a Mashburn. You may see a slight gain with the STW but it won't be much and will mostly show only with 175 gr bullets,and with a 26" or longer barrel Guys like Mashburn and Hagel worked this stuff out decades ago.I've seen it myself working with both. Maybe you missed this....Powders change but relationships remain the same.You can read and learn only so much.The rest takes shooting.
The Weatherby needs free bore. If you want that have at it.
Big Stick has lectured endlessly about this relationship between mag box constraints,throat/leade dimensions,seating arrangements with various bullets,etc. Clearly he gets it and people should listen. It isn't always about capacity....some cartridges/rifles are (to paraphrase him) a goat puck out of the box.
It isn't just about speed and capacity...it's about what's "optimum". Bob . . . yes, I brought up the Mashburn, only to try and understand why the 100fps Mashburn gain was so desirable to you, while the 100fps gain of the 280AI just wasn't worth it. I still don't have the answer to that. I understand your references to Stick's advice about COAL, mag length, and throating, but EVERY rifle is a series of compromises, and for me a lightweight mountain rifle was the goal. Not a long range rifle that will be optimum with the longest heaviest high BC bullets. That's one of the great things about the 7mm. Bullet choices. The 168gr. Berger Classic Hunter (.604BC) gives up very little BC to 168gr VLD (.617BC) but is designed for use in a standard magazine length. It's a very accurate bullet for me. Another compromise is barrel life. For the Mashburn clone 7mm Practical, the developer has reported "Throat wear is approximately .1mm / .004" per 400 rounds - providing the throat is kept polished to close pores within the bore steel. Barrel life is approximately 1000 to 1200 rounds." At the end of the day, for any rifle it's all about choosing the compromises you can live with. I have a 270 that I like a lot, and bought it because of the rifle I found it in, and not the cartridge. Even though I have heard Stick use the term goat puck when talking about the 270 more than any other cartridge, it was a compromise I was willing to live with. But since I appreciate "optimum", I sure wish it was a 280/280AI.
Last edited by WhelenAway; 05/25/15.
FÜCK Jeff_O!
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I don't owe you a "reason", nor an answer. You're entitled to "nothing". I'll try one more time to give you the courtesy of a response. Go build rifles, load for them, and get your own answers. I thought I hit on the reasons in previous posts,but apparently the message got lost in the chatter. Explaining things to people with utterly no experience is a waste of time,especially if they aren't in the business of listening and don't want to learn for themselves but expect everyone on here to give them answers.  The differences in velocity are greater than 100 fps with bullets of 160 gr and up,even though you insist on using that number despite having been corrected a number of times now.They have a word for that...I call it "stupid". Not only does it handily beat a 7 Rem Mag in velocity,it is an easier cartridge to work with, much more predictable rifle to rifle, much more uniform in the amount of powder it burns for velocity delivered. It also "fits' a M70 or Remington 700 "better". In short, across the board, it's a "better" belted magnum 7mm than the 7 Rem Mag.Probably better than other 7mm's of greater capacity as well. There are other belted 7mm's,others of greater capacity. They don't interest me for a variety of reasons. Unless you get down and load the thing yourself you may want to question this,especially if you have an agenda to prove me "wrong",or you want to be convinced..  So I suggest that you contact Dober,Docbill, Dave 7mm, and Sergeant Beretz on here. They all have Mashburns,and will corroborate what i say. Dave 7mm was done with load development and a ladder test at 500 yards in two range sessions with a 150 BT at 3300 fps. He described the cartridge as (paraphrased}"easy, a big easy going slob to work up loads, hit velocity,and keep it running consistently,unlike the STW which was a PITA". Beretz punched out a PF M70 7 rem Mag to Mashburn; was "done" with load development in under 20 rounds with a 160 AB at 3200 fps. You could cover groups with a dime.Ask him. Others have them. They don't post on here about it on because they have less patience than I do answering inane questions. As to nobody building them, when I built mine 5 years ago, one phone call and I had dies from RCBS in 3-4 days. Today you can't find them over the counter. Wait times are measured in months. Ak NYrifleman and GuideGun...they had to wayt 2-3 months. Someone is building them but I don't know them all. Don't bother me anymore with your silly questions. I'm all out of patience with you.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Lots of words to say I have no answer. Why didn't you just say I'm a 270 slut and leave it at that. BTW, 100fps came from your numbers, not mine. But 50fps may be more accurate with the 7Wby accounted for. Have a nice day. GFY 
FÜCK Jeff_O!
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Fill in the blanks, correct where needed:
162 Amax
7-08=2,700 FPS
7-08AI=2,800 FPS
280=2,800 FPS
280AI=2,900FPS
7RM=3,000 FPS
7STW=?
7Mash=?
At what pressure and bbl length does a 7mm08ai equal a .280rem? Handloaded ai in a 28in bbl vs factory loaded 280 in a 22in maybe. If you have some actuals, post. Just curious as to what bbl length and pressure allows a 7mm-08ai to equal the .280rem with 162gr class bullets. Unless you are using magic powder, then it all works out. Or shooting over a unichrony.
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EVERY rifle is a series of compromises
If phucqers could grasp ahold of this idea, the 'fire wouldn't be the same.
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Fill in the blanks, correct where needed:
162 Amax
7-08=2,700 FPS
7-08AI=2,800 FPS
280=2,800 FPS
280AI=2,900FPS
7RM=3,000 FPS
7STW=?
7Mash=?
At what pressure and bbl length does a 7mm08ai equal a .280rem? Handloaded ai in a 28in bbl vs factory loaded 280 in a 22in maybe. If you have some actuals, post. Just curious as to what bbl length and pressure allows a 7mm-08ai to equal the .280rem with 162gr class bullets. Unless you are using magic powder, then it all works out. Or shooting over a unichrony. Which part of "fill in the blanks or correct where needed" do you not understand?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Fill in the blanks, correct where needed:
162 Amax
7-08=2,700 FPS
7-08AI=2,800 FPS
280=2,800 FPS
280AI=2,900FPS
7RM=3,000 FPS
7STW=?
7Mash=?
Not for 162g AMAX but Hodgdon pressure and velocity data. All with 24" barrels: 7mm-08, 140g, 2868fps, 49,800 CUP 7mm-08, 160g, 2690fps, 48,900 CUP .280 Rem, 140g, 2983fps, 58,600 PSI .280 Rem, 160g, 2773fps, 56,900 PSI .284 Win, 140g, 3075fps, 51,200 CUP .284 Win, 160g, 2810fps, 52,000 CUP .280 AI, 140g, 3025fps, 60,000 PSI .280 AI, 160g, 2872fps, 61,700 PSI 7mm RM, 140g, 3175fps, 59,900 PSI 7mm RM, 160g, 2948fps, 58,000 PSI 7mm STW, 140g, 3347fps, 54,300 CUP 7mm STW, 160g, 3085fps, 54,200 CUP
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 05/25/15.
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A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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