Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers .444 VS .45-70

OLD POST, I KNOW;

Was scrolling through the BIG BORE LEVERS site last week and ran across the subject heading [.444 vs .45-70]
It had some info I am interested in. Goes back...way back. Any OLD TIMERS on able to steer me in the right direction?
Not to be confused with [.444 V .450 Marlin. Can't find anything on it anywhere now.

Appreciate any/all help.

WILL.

what type of info are you looking for? Ballistic comparison? recoil? bullet types?

personally I like the old thumper. the 45-70 has more choices for bullets and authority when it hits. nothing wrong with the triple 4 but just my preference. the govt. has the capability of using 200g to 700 grain bullets whereas the trip4 has a more limited range available. they both will kill big nasty critters as dead as they can get so it is a matter of what turns your crank. then again why worry, just get one of each! best of both worlds.
an old timer
by the way come Christmas eve this year I will have been reloading the 45-70 for 51 years so I must like it.

I have two .444s,I have one .45/70.I shoot the .444 and I like it.I shoot my.45/70 and I like it.The .444 is a .444.The.45/70 is a .45/70.Two entirely different rifles,built on the Marlin platform.The reason I don't have two or More .45/70 rifles is because I haven't ran across one as cheaply priced as the others.Ask a dead deer,Bison,or Grizzly which one killed him,and let us know what he said.

I was looking for the thread itself. I saw something interesting on it and then the screen went into one of those damn blank modes and when it came back on, I couldn't find the thread anymore.

I remember it being started somewhere back around '10 and in the latter part of the 92 pages, Somewhere around the '80s-'90s pages. That's about all I remember, except that it had to do with some heavy bullet loads.

Having acquired an H&R .444 barrel for my .308 Ultra, and some (500) 460-490gr. cast bullets from MONTANA CAST, I wanted to try some of the loads in the thread.

I've had a New Model .444 w/Ballard rifling for about 15 yrs. and have taken a few head with it; Hogs and deer. I just got a touch of nostalgia and wanted to try something like a .44-70(I know.. there's probably nothing of the sort), but I just want to load some rounds w/ HEAVY weights to around 1400-1500 FPS, somewhat like in the old days.

WILL.

Both are great cartridges but if you plan on shooting factory ammo the 45-70 blows the .444 Marlin away in choices of ammo.....Good luck.....Hb

Could this be the thread you are referring to blueeyes? It is in the "Marlin Talk" forum though, not the Big Bore Levers. One thing this thread below does have in it are links to the Tech Notes on the 444 written by Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets. It is a wonderful amount of information and load development with the 444.

444 versus 45-70 Marlin

Edit to Add: Did some more searching and found the following threads:

Marlin 444 or 45 70 ?

444 and 450

.444, .450 Marlin, or .45-70?

The search function of the 24hourcampfire is a little cumbersome to work with. I opened the search to all forums under Lever Actions Central instead of only looking in the Big Bore Levers. Hope this helps.

GRINGO: You're a lifesaver. Appreciate the lookout for the right site. I don't think I would have thought about going back to that particular one.

Everyone else....Thank you all too. Ever since the little episode with the ticker, I'm just not remembering things too clearly.

Made some notes for later, when I can think more clearly.

WILL.-

I guess it would help if I were a little more proficient on this thing too. Too much to learn for this old dog. Too technical for me, really.

If heavy bullets at moderate velocities are what you're interested in blueeyes, then see the tech notes on Beartooth Bullets I linked below. Part III in particular has heavy cast bullet loads, but all of the tech notes are good reads.

.444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part I

.444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part II

.444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part III

PRESSURE, VELOCITY AND THE 444 MARLIN

You will also find some great online reading in the writings of Paco Kelly regarding the big levers, particularly the 444. I have an affinity for the "this is what I did and how I did it" style of writing he used.

I like the .45-70, just 'cause.

But, I've never seen or heard of a .444 Marlin '95 "going to pieces" like some .45-70's. The fatter .45-70 case leaves less metal around the ctg. and the '95 has a weak place ahead of the ejection port.

DF

Use the right powders and you won't blow the .45-70 up. I've never been a fan of pistol powders in rifles.

Damn! That looks scarey!.......Hb

It is scary, but I still like the .45-70 better than the .444.

And, I'm a careful reloader, only overcharged my 6.5x55 just a week ago...

My Ohaus 10-10 scale jumped from 42 to 52 gr., while weighing RL-15. Chrono read 3,577 fps with a 100 gr. NPT. Who needs a .264..?

Didn't blow up. It's a 98 FN Mauser, not a Marlin '95...

DF

Yea whatever load was fired in that rifle would blow up anything. Even if it was a 444.

.444 has more steel in the area forward of the ejection port. So, it would take more to blow the .444 than the .45-70, although one could conceivably blow up either one.

DF

GRINGO; Apologize for the late reply. Medical issues playing havoc with me. I checked the sites you outlined but I need to find some load data for 460-490gr pills I got from Montana Cast Bullets. Already done everything I can with 300-320 gr. As it stands, I guess I will need to use Trail Boss and hope to get low-to-mid teens with the heavyweights. Will try some when I feel better and have a clear head. Don't feel too much like blowing anything up just yet. Especially [Yers Trooly]

WILL.

Here's proof on the new Jurassic Park movie that when going after the big-big stuff, the .45-70 should be the weapon to choose....

Garrett's or Cor-Bon?

Which to get depends on what you're hunting. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the biggest elk that ever walked with the proper loads in 444 Marlin.

If you want to shoot heavy bullets in the 444, you need to be careful of the 1:38 twist the older Microgroove guns used. Newer 444s use a 1:20 twist with Ballard rifling.

If you want to hunt something REALLY big, like grizzlies, polar bears or T Rex, the 45-70 with suitable handloads is the way to go. Recoil gets pretty stout with these loads.

The 45-70 is a more viable proposition than the 444. Winchester isn't making any more 444s, H&R is gone and while Marlin still has it listed on the website, nobody seems to have any. Brass is hard to find too; I came across a bag of once fired brass from my old 444 and offered it on GunBroker. I was shocked when it sold for more than a dollar a case for used brass! 45-70 brass and ammo has been around for 143 years and will still be around 143 years from now.

True to a degree. It really depends on what you call heavy bullets in the 444 though. The 1:38 twist can stabilize up to about 330 gr as long as they are pushed sufficiently. Also, when shooting cast bullets, they need to be sized about .432 to fill the bore better. I personally don't see the incentive for shooting more than 330 gr bullets in the 444 anyways.


Brass has become hard to find indeed. I was over at Gander Mountain about two weeks ago and was very surprised to see some new Remington Factor 240 gr 444 boxes on the shelf. Pricey too at $55/box. If that isn't incentive to handload, I don't know what is. I have not seen Remington factory there for several years since the demand for ammunition became so great. Perhaps that is an indication that the ammunition manufacturers are finally starting to make up ground on supply and maybe we will see some brass for cartridges like the 444 and 35 Rem in the near future. I bought enough brass to last me a couple of lifetimes so I am set. In 2006, I bought 600 once fired cases of 444 for $100 on ebay. I'd say you made a nice profit on yours natman.

I had a 444 Marlin with Micro-groove rifling back in the 70's. I wasn't impressed -- the 265 grain J-word bullet was about as good as it got with that rifle. But the newer rifle are likely a lot better from what most people say. I have 1886 45-70 now and I'm totally happy with that rifle. If I need more power, I'll take out the 45-90.