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I have a question for those who use a Havalon. In the above post a guide did a whole bison, and xelk. Not sure what xelk mean, but i'm thinking more than one.

So, if he can do that with one blade. What advantage does he have from any other sharp knife? If you're not changing blades, it's like any other knife.

Just curious.

Last edited by BarHunter; 05/22/15.

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Originally Posted by BarHunter
I have a question for those who use a Havalon. In the above post a guide did a whole bison, and xelk. Not sure what xelk mean, but i'm thinking more than one.

So, if he can do that with one blade. What advantage does he have from any other sharp knife? If you're not changing blades, it's like any other knife.

Just curious.

Pretty simple, really. Yes, X (which stands for an unknown quantity in algebra) elk means more than one elk skinned. The guide's point was not to show a person needs only one Havalon blade. He was testing a single blade's longevity and durability, not attempting to prove extra blades are superfluous. Just as a hunter would carry more than one knife on a remote hunt in case he lost the knife, broke the blade, or had some other mishap, one would carry more than one Havalon/blade on a hunt.

The advantage is a significant weight reduction without compromising quality of the cutting edge. In fact, being "scalpel sharp" is another advantage. Many people may claim to be able to sharpen a knife edge to the sharpness of a surgical scalpel, but in reality almost no one can actually do it.

Steve.


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Yes, I know. Just my way of asking how many elk it was? I've read guys who can't even get through a deer without changing blades.

The guide was sharpening the blade, so i'm not sure we're talking apples to apples.


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My sister gave me a 4 pin BUCK 110 on my sixteenth birthday. That was 46 years and a hundred plus deer ago. I was a butchers helper in high school so it is and stays sharp.

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Originally Posted by huntstat
My sister gave me a 4 pin BUCK 110 on my sixteenth birthday. That was 46 years and a hundred plus deer ago. I was a butchers helper in high school so it is and stays sharp.


You're a bit off on the years. The 4 dot started in 81.

http://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/how-old/


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Originally Posted by BarHunter
Yes, I know. Just my way of asking how many elk it was? I've read guys who can't even get through a deer without changing blades.

The guide was sharpening the blade, so i'm not sure we're talking apples to apples.

Actually the guide was not sharpening the blade. He was steeling the blade. A steel is often called a "sharpening" steel, but it is mis-named. It does not sharpen a knife. High magnification will show that during use a knife edge becomes mis-shapen, folds over, and otherwise loses its fine edge with minimal steel being worn away. The steel does not re-sharpen in the sense that it removes steel. It simply returns the edge -- "restores" or "realigns" are perhaps the best words -- to its straight, fine characteristic.

The same thing can be done on the edge of a car door window, or the edge of a stainless steel table. In fact, too many knives made from good steel are sharpened when they don't need it -- all they need is someone who knows how to work an edge with a steel. Using a steel should not be considered a method of sharpening. It is a method of finishing -- or refinishing -- a sharp edge.

Every knife user would benefit from knowing how to use a steel. Not only will his knife remain sharper for longer, the knife will last longer because less steel will be worn away in resharpening.

The fact that he used a steel is disclosed precisely so one can make an apples to apples comparison.

To your first comment about guys who can't get through a deer without dulling a knife -- you are right. It pays to know how to use a knife. Cut from the inside of the critter. Do not cut hair. Do not use the tip as a wedge. Do not run the edge against bone. Many people do not use such care, and they'll dull any knife.

Steve.


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Yes, any real cook, or butcher will tell you the value of steeling the blade.

Can we agree that it does restore sharpness to the edge compared to not doing it?


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I notice some talk about the Buck knives being hard to sharpen. It depends a lot on the age of your knife.

In Buck knives, the steels went thus.....

Before 1981.---440C
1981 to 1993.--425M
1993-----420HC

The 440C was exceedingly hard steel and a lot of people had trouble with it. The 425M was a little better and the current 420HC is excellent in that it's not too hard to sharpen but still holds the edge for a long time.

It's always better to touch a blade up a bit now and then and keep it sharp rather than let it get really dull.

That's what "sharpening steels" are all about, by the way.....they are used to KEEP a sharp edge as butchers cut meat all day--not to CREATE a sharp edge.

Anyway, in 1981 the Buck knives became a little bit easier to sharpen and in 1993 the knives became quite a lot easier to sharpen.


Last edited by DancesWithGuns; 05/22/15.

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Originally Posted by BarHunter
Yes, any real cook, or butcher will tell you the value of steeling the blade.

Can we agree that it does restore sharpness to the edge compared to not doing it?

We can if we understand the difference between steeling and sharpening. Strictly speaking though, steeling is not restoring the sharpness to the edge; it's restoring the edge. Sharpening is removing material to create a new edge. Yes, a subtle difference, but meaningful.

I wonder how many people actually use a steel. Not many -- I'd bet the percentage is in the single digits. But then, lot of people don't even sharpen. I've probably talked to hundreds of well-intentioned people who leave that task to the evening before the deer season opens, and never get around to it. Some don't really even know how to sharpen a knife. Thus the market for a sharp, replaceable blade.

Steve.


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Ok, a subtle difference. I'm good with that.


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This is a very good video on the proper use of a steel. Everyone should have a steel in the kitchen along with a nylon or hardwood cutting board. My knives never go into a sink. Can't say the same about the other beaters that go into the drawer. smile


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Good video -- thanks for posting. Makes clear that honing is not sharpening. It is more like tuning the blade.

Steve.


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The man said 4 pin not 4 dot.


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Originally Posted by Boarmaster123
The man said 4 pin not 4 dot.


You're right, and that gets more confusing. Buck used left over drilled handles, and converted them to more or less pins. It's really hard to pinpoint a year made by the pins. Markings on the blade are more reliable, and accurate.

Some say the 4 pin started in 82, but that is probably wrong. Mine is a 3 pin, and I know it was built in 81.


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The four PINS started 1974 or just after.

The four DOTS started in 1981.

There are a few exceptions and sometimes a few months slopover in production, but those are the generally accepted dates.

There was even a five-pin model after 1974 for a while.

Pins refers to the rivets that hold the wood inlays on plus the rocker rivet.

Dots refers to the stamped dots on the blade.

Last edited by DancesWithGuns; 05/22/15.

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I know what they are. It's more complicated than just 4 pin. It's the location of the brass and steel pins, and the pattern. Mine is a 4 dot 3 pin. Which came before the 4 pin.

You ask this on the Buck forum, and you'll get many different answers.

Anyway, it's not that important. They're all 110's.


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Originally Posted by Everyday Hunter
Originally Posted by BarHunter
Yes, any real cook, or butcher will tell you the value of steeling the blade.

Can we agree that it does restore sharpness to the edge compared to not doing it?

We can if we understand the difference between steeling and sharpening. Strictly speaking though, steeling is not restoring the sharpness to the edge; it's restoring the edge. Sharpening is removing material to create a new edge. Yes, a subtle difference, but meaningful.

I wonder how many people actually use a steel. Not many -- I'd bet the percentage is in the single digits. But then, lot of people don't even sharpen. I've probably talked to hundreds of well-intentioned people who leave that task to the evening before the deer season opens, and never get around to it. Some don't really even know how to sharpen a knife. Thus the market for a sharp, replaceable blade.

Steve.


Though I understand how they work I have never used a steel. Probably should pick one up and give it a try just to learn something new. In place of one, I currently use an ultra fine stone (hard translucent Arkansas). I have found that if I don't destroy an edge, I can maintain it, or more technically correct, resharpen it indefinitely with little effort before I have to go to a coarse stone. The stone does remove a little metal compared to a steel, but very little. A steel would be better for a guy cutting all day...that is why butchers and cooks use them.

The disposable knives have a lot going for them, especially for people who do not have an emotional attachment to knives and just want to cut stuff. Getting back to edge retention, if anyone thinks a Buck or comparable price point knife is trash, compare one to a disposable blade when it comes to heat treat and quality of steel. The disposable is likely made from the cheapest possible steel in a Chinese factory with basic heat treating, probably very "soft", but people are saying that they retain their edge a long time. Why is this, how can it be? IMO the reason is that they start out with a perfectly apexed and burr free edge created by a machine....probably some kind of laser. No wires or weak spots to snap off. Unless you roll the edge by hitting something hard or abrade it by cutting something dirty, it will last a long time, especially for what it is. In other words the steel probably ain't much but the edge is perfection.

Few people if any can duplicate that, even those that know what they are doing, much less the typical guy that leaves the wire edge on his knife after sharpening. When you consider the fact that good sharpening stones are far from cheap plus you have to know how to use them, it is easy to see why hunters are liking these knives. I probably won't ever use them because I like knives and fooling with them almost as much as I like rifles, but I can't knock them. laugh



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I have used the Spyderco ceramic triangle stick set your years. It creates a much finer edge that a kitchen steel, and it has a built in angle which produces much more consistent results with less wear on the blade. One thing not shown in the video is to take a couple a backward strokes to straighten the edge first.

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Originally Posted by RJY66
When you consider the fact that good sharpening stones are far from cheap plus you have to know how to use them, it is easy to see why hunters are liking these knives. I probably won't ever use them because I like knives and fooling with them almost as much as I like rifles, but I can't knock them. laugh

You gave two reasons why hunters gravitate toward disposable blades:
1. Good sharpening equipment is not cheap.
2. You have to know how to use whatever tool you choose.

I'll add a third:
3. The majority of hunters on opening day are carrying a fairly dull knife, even if they have sharpened it. (See point two.)

With an inexpensive, but high quality surgical scalpel on your knife, and without an emotional attachment to your knife, it's no wonder Havalon knives have become so popular.

A high quality American-made knife, especially a custom knife, is a beautiful thing and there are many reasons to have and use one. In fact, you don't even need a reason to use one other than you like it. But anyone says it's the only way to go is a bit of knife snob, similar to the optics snobs we see so many of. As RJY66 said, we don't need to knock them in order to position high-end knives better. The high-end knives can stand on their own, but they're not for everyone.

Incidentally, Havalon blades are made in India (not China), which has been producing quality steel on the world market for a long time. And since the scalpels are made for the medical industry, there is a high motivation to import high quality steel.

Steve.


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Originally Posted by BarHunter
I know what they are. It's more complicated than just 4 pin. It's the location of the brass and steel pins, and the pattern. Mine is a 4 dot 3 pin. Which came before the 4 pin.


No.

BOTH the two dotters and the three dotters had four pins (three rivets and one pivot pin).....and BOTH came BEFORE the FOUR DOTTERS so your knife is an anomaly.....likely somebody put a newer blade on and older 110 frame.

Actually, the likely answer is not complicated. Your knife must have been slapped together from parts by a knife mangler.

Got a picture of that strange knife?



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