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We once got a small 4x4 whitey back home that had been shot with a slug gun 9 times before it was all over. He simply didn't want to die that day. He stayed mobile too, even though both front legs were broken.

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Originally Posted by BC30cal
Skatchewan;
Top of the morning to you sir, hopefully this still warm Sunday has been treating you well.

Based upon shooting and/or being beside the shooter when roughly 2 dozen deer were shot with monometal bullets - TSX,TTSX and GMX - I would agree with gerrygoat that the first shot placement was not great and especially so for a monometal.

The copper bullets are - in our experience anyway - at their best when you break a major bone either with the entrance or exit wound. We try to either break the scapula or ulna always.

Overall, if one always has or can limit your shots to a "picture perfect" broadside shot, then I'd say that there are better bullets for you than an all copper hollow point.

If however, you are occasionally going to need to shoot through some bones or perhaps take a less than optimum shot at a wounded animal and plow through 2' of wet grass to hit the vitals - then they shine and brightly too.

I will say too, that the TSX, TTSX, GMX that we've shot do better work from cartridge/barrel combinations that have faster twists or higher initial velocities or better still both. We've seen larger wound cavities with that combination as a result - by large I mean more cubic centimeters of damaged and displaced tissue.

So for instance our eldest daughter's 6.5 Swede with a 1:7½" twist barrel shooting 130gr TSX at 2700fps consistently showed as much or slightly more damage than my .270 with its unusually slow twist 1:11¼" barrrel shooting 130gr TTSX/GMX at 2950fps.

I am cognizant that's counter intuitive to say the least and has been the source of controversy - nonetheless we saw what we saw.

Lastly, some deer just decide they're not going to die and I have no clue as to why that is. The longest runner for me personally was little 2 point mulie that had no idea the Appy and I were there on his section of the mountain. Despite a solid mid lung hit with a 165gr Hornady BT which started out at 3200fps from my .300 Win Mag, the little fellow made more than 200yds after being hit solidly in both lungs.

Even the horse couldn't believe how much blood that buck lost before dying - but there it is and again we saw what we saw.

Anyway sir, that's only one short, bald guy's thoughts on the matter and worth only what it costs to read for sure and maybe not even that. wink

Thanks for sharing the video and all the best to you this summer.

Dwayne

I have also shot a ton of game with TSX/TTSX, mostly .338-210 and 7x57 140's, from deer size to elk sized game. I shot one head of game twice, but I tend to place it to break bones on the way in. With a Sierra or ballistic tip, I'd place it in the soft tissue. Three or four years ago, I shot a big quartering away buck on the run with the 7x57 in the left ham, exited his forehead. I'd call that a premium result. For some reason, a lot of game bleeds gallons when hit with TSX's, whether they go 20 yards or die on the spot. [Linked Image]

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I helped (well-watched) a vet patch up a dog with what appears about the same placement. 30-06 at about 50 feet probably. Dog lived, without interior surgery - only at exit wound was some reconstruction required to refasten a torn ligament, and cleaning up the entrance wound.

Bullet passed just under the spine, and apparently just over the lungs, missing any major artery.

Had I not seen it, I would not have believed a dog could live with that shot placement.


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The title of this thread is askew from the start. Since when did anyone ever guarantee premium results from any bullet? I must have missed that memo.

I read the whole thread and it is a nit picker's delight! laugh


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The more I use monometals the less impressed I am.

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Bullets do strange things at times. I once chased a nice mulie down into Devil's Gulch that my brother had shot broadside through both lungs with a 100g NPT from his 6mm Rem. Didn't think that SOB would ever die. I took the only shots I had while traversing the steep terrain. My first shot with a 140NAB at 3200MV was a feeble attempt at a THS through a small hole in the brush, which exploded on his rear ham and failed to even make it to the intestines. After some climbing around the steep canyon, I finally had a small hole through the brush to his neck and ended his misery. It took us 8 hours to pack him out and he'd not even made it near the bottom of the gulch. Had I not put finishers in the buck, It would have been a much longer day.

Point being, do it long enough and weird stuff happens. I could tell many other weird bullet performance stories....

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Originally Posted by Reloader7RM
Bullets do strange things at times.
...
Point being, do it long enough and weird stuff happens. I could tell many other weird bullet performance stories....


Prezactly! Threads like this one are a focus on the oddities.

It's a percentage thing. Some bullets have higher percentage of doing something erratic, and some have a boringly consistent high percentage of doing what they are designed to do. IME the better designed bullets perform FAR more consistently than old technology cup and core, so I use them.

Cost, image, posing and elitism are irrelevant, as my standard hunting attire of thrift store wool dress pants confirms. grin


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I'd sure like to kill a buck like the one in the vid. That guy should have been grinning like a madman.



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Originally Posted by Model70Guy
For a shot that is too high and too far back, with low retained velocity on a comparatively soft animal a Barnes would be close to my last choice. Just about anything would have worked better and most of them are fairly ordinary.

Turn the situation around to a large animal shot through major bone and muscle mass at close range with the associated high velocity and the same Barnes bullet is very good, equal to any and probably better than most.

Everything is a compromise, but soft rapidly expanding bullets at high velocity have gotten me out of more situations than they ever caused, and the harder expanding bullets have caused more blood trails than they saved by being able to shoot through animals lengthwise. That doesn't necessarily mean that they failed to work as designed, it that I am often less than thrilled by what they do when they do work as designed.


Well said. This, too, has come to be my opinion.


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No doubt this has been hacked around to the point of insanity, but I must add my .02 cents. Bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement! MTG


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Some animals are just dicks and won't die where and how you want. Tis why it's called hunting.

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The shot's high. Compare this photo to the diagram. He barely got it under the spine. Contrary to popular myth, there is no dead air space there. He clipped the very top of the lungs and it took a while to bleed out inside. A shade higher would have spined it and it would have dropped like a sack of rocks.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

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Yeah, a lot of people believe in that magic space "above the lungs." I posted this early in this thread, but not many people read entire threads after they're more than a page or two long, and some don't even read the short ones:

The hit was NOT behind the diaphragm, or at most entered right on the edge, but the buck was quartering away enough for the bullet to get the top of both lungs--but NOT the liver, because the liver is on the other side of the body.

But the bullet did land HIGH in the lungs, not far below the spine. I did a bunch of research on lung wounds several years ago, including interviews with forensic ballisticians and veterinarians. The edges of the lungs have far smaller blood vessels than the center, especially in the area above the heart, and also less "air pressure." Consequently it not only takes longer for animals hit around the edges of the lungs to die, but depending on the extent of the wound they can even survive and heal up. It isn't uncommon, for instance, to kill elk that had been previously shot high through the lungs, just under the spine, and find the wound channel healed. An African PH I hunted with says it also happens with gemsbok, but he has never seen it with a kudu.

A monolithic bullet retaining all its petals doesn't make as large a wound channel as a more fragmenting bullet, but plastic-tipped monos usually expand enough to kill quickly when placed reasonably well. This hit was around the fringes.

Based on some experience, I'd guess the deer would have died quicker if hit in the same place with a bullet that at least partly fragmented, but that's just a guess. Have also seen animals hit with a bunch of other bullets, of all types, survive longer than they "should."
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I've had far more TTSX bullets lose petals, and thus "fragment," than TSX bullets. I don't mind at all.

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
The hit was NOT behind the diaphragm, or at most entered right on the edge, but the buck was quartering away enough for the bullet to get the top of both lungs--but NOT the liver, because the liver is on the other side of the body.


So in this instance, the deer most likely would have bled more/died quicker with a shot farther back that would have raked through the liver (what many might call a "gut shot"). In my experience seeing liver-shot animals, they go into shock almost immediately and start stiffening up while on their feet.

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For a less than perfect hit at 400 yards in high wind with a scare the deer bump the adrenalin follow up shot the result seems in the range of normal. I love the TTSX for elk but think a Nosler BT is almost always better on deer.

I've got a deer tag for Colorado this year and would be happy to fill it with a similar animal while I'm chasing elk with a 180 grain Barnes. I can guarantee that I won't be passing up any 200 yard shots to get the right camera angle. With 3 other guys without deer tags helping scout & spot my goal might be reachable. We have seen a few nice bucks the last few years only being able to take photos. I will be prepared to take the shot at 400 - The terrain and property lines sometimes dictate that is as close as you can get in some of our hunting area.

I think if the hunter hadn't fired that 2nd shot the deer might have stopped much closer- not that I would be able to refrain myself.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzUt_Mpwjxo

found this one with a 140 TTSX. I'm still waiting to use them on hogs.

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Very good topic. I shot a waterbuck with a Hornady DGS 300g and the bullet only had about 30 inches of penetration. Thank goodness it was not a buffalo! But when i found the bullet lodged in the animal it was deformed which is abnormal of a solid in a large bore rifle. Thought that was interesting but I guess we all get a few bad rounds. Happy Hunting!


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