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Originally Posted by Calhoun
Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by JoeBob
the issue is whether that firearm is safe with ammunition loaded to the pressures in the cartridge for which it is designed.

Which brings us directly to the 8.3% over maximum, highly compressed load; i.e., a load beyond the pressures in the cartridge for which it was designed.

Is that 8.3% over the current published max, or the published max 8 years ago? I seem to remember hearing somebody say the published max then was higher than it is now.


Current. Verified this morning that the maximum for the 180 E-Tip in the .300WM at 3.340" COAL is 79.4 grains, and even that load is compressed.

If the listed maximum then was higher, it would stand to reason that the proper defendant - had the load in question actually blown the action (vs a busted stock) - would be the propellant manufacturer and load data publisher for putting out information that was well in excess of proper safety standards.

That said, was the E-Tip even out long enough for load data to be available a decade ago?


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And especially for those chamberings that can only be acquired by handloading.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

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Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by JoeBob
the issue is whether that firearm is safe with ammunition loaded to the pressures in the cartridge for which it is designed.


Which brings us directly to the 8.3% over maximum, highly compressed load; i.e., a load beyond the pressures in the cartridge for which it was designed.


Fine, but that is far from your original blanket statement regarding handloaded ammunition.


You're mixing up issues, Joe. The case at hand has to do with the load in question and the rifle in question. A rifle that did not have the action fail, but the stock fail, and a load that is more than 8% over maximum and highly compressed at that.


No, I'm not mixing up issues. YOU said that the manufacturer should not be liable because handloaded ammunition was used and they warn against it in their manual. That is wrong, legally speaking.

Beyond that I don't care.

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Originally Posted by Calhoun
Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by JoeBob
the issue is whether that firearm is safe with ammunition loaded to the pressures in the cartridge for which it is designed.

Which brings us directly to the 8.3% over maximum, highly compressed load; i.e., a load beyond the pressures in the cartridge for which it was designed.

Is that 8.3% over the current published max, or the published max 8 years ago? I seem to remember hearing somebody say the published max then was higher than it is now.
Most are. Lawyers.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

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Originally Posted by bobhanson1
Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
Originally Posted by RWE
I suppose if the frame stretched than there may be daylight between the barrel and the breech.

Happens sometimes on the old Handi-rifles.



Not if the barrel stretched first....unless it stretched forward trying to follow the bullet.

When that happens, the action will open and break the stock.


The barrel lug on an Encore will give out long before the barrel stretches.

Based on the pistol grip break away from the actual bolt/contact point, it almost makes me wonder if a lead sled wasn't involved where the tie down on grip becomes the pivot point during recoil???


My statement was tongue-in-cheek.

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Can Quickload guess at an estimated pressure level for this? [/quote]

I have been doing just that. My QL gives a choice of several brand cases, that have very different capacities.
So much of this post is murky - I'm pretty clear on the 85 gr.
of H-1000, but is 180 gr. E-tip the right bullet?
Anyhow, adjusting the seating depth way WAY out there, and with the highest capacity case, I'm seeing around 60,000 psi.
Switch to the lower capacity, seat the bullet a little deeper,
it goes to 75,000 and beyond rather quickly.
I'd really like to know what brand brass and COAL were involved in this situation, but am not holding my breath...

I will say one thing - from my personal experience with compressed loads, IF these were compressed as high as some of the scenarios QL conjures up, NO WAY were the bullets not creeping out of the case. So probably jammed into the rifling
I'd guess. Which is about all I can do without the details.

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I do not feel sorry for someone who deliberately exceeds the recommended hand loads.I bet TC would love to read this thread.Will probably win an appeal with a firearms expert testifying for them.You Sir, deserve what you got.What a Gomer!!!!


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Then again it could be someone from the other side of the argument hoping to help the appeal...


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Then again it could be someone from the other side of the argument hoping to help the appeal...


Well that would explain the wealth of answers we're getting.

To that member of TC's legal team, I would like to shake your hand while kicking you in the nuts.

WELL DONE!

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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Then again it could be someone from the other side of the argument hoping to help the appeal...


Judging by the posts on other forums where Brian has been a member for a long time and has people who know him personally, posting on those forums, I'd say highly unlikely.








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Originally Posted by RWE
So the gun action blew open, the empty case flew out and struck the President, than sailed over the grassy knoll.


There's only one man could make that shot. Let's get Bob Lee Swagger to go talk to Levon Helm and find out who dunnit.


Originally Posted by RWE
The gun fell and broke the stock as gravity and momentum closed the action?


What he said in the other thread was, the action blew open and that's what broke the stock. I have an Encore muzzleloader, and if it blew open and fell to the ground, I could see how it could easily fall in a closed position like that.

It doesn't really matter though, that photo proves nothing. No one here knows the circumstances under which it was taken, or whether it's an accurate portrayal of what happened. Could have been staged, or it could have been disturbed.



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Originally Posted by heavywalker
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Then again it could be someone from the other side of the argument hoping to help the appeal...


Judging by the posts on other forums where Brian has been a member for a long time and has people who know him personally, posting on those forums, I'd say highly unlikely.


Or someone with an axe to grind? Or an ex-wife, or.....


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I haven't read the whole thread, but after seeing the recent pictures I am more favorably disposed toward the owner. Originally I was inclined to think him a whiner trying to make a profit.

Apparently, the stock failed, causing the rest of the gun to strike him in the face and do serious injury. A failure of the stock is caused by the effects of recoil, not chamber pressure.

It's meaningless that his handloads were a bit above book. It was straight line force that did the damage, and his "8% over book load" probably made about 2-3% more recoil above a factory load.

The Encore is sold in calibers larger than the .300 win mag, like the .35 Whelan, .45-70, and 12 gauge, which presumably kick as hard or harder than even a warm loaded .300 mag. And T/c should have made a stock strong enough to handle anything they chamber.

I have no dog in this hunt, and I'm not gonna spend hours researching the case and technical details. If someone finds different details that blows up my theory, more power to them. But if some product fails and badly injures me during reasonable, normal use, I'd sue the manufacturer, too.

Last edited by tex_n_cal; 05/28/15. Reason: clarified

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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
I haven't read the whole thread, but after seeing the recent pictures I am more favorably disposed toward the owner. Originally I was inclined to think him a whiner trying to make a profit.

Apparently, the stock failed, causing the rest of the gun to strike him in the face and do serious injury. A failure of the stock is caused by the effects of recoil, not chamber pressure.

It's meaningless that his handloads were a bit above book. It was straight line force that did the damage, and his "8% over book load" probably made about 2-3% more recoil above a factory load.

The Encore is sold in calibers larger than the .300 win mag, like the .35 Whelan, .45-70, and 12 gauge, which presumably kick as hard or harder than even a warm loaded .300 mag. And T/c should have made a stock strong enough to handle anything they chamber.

I have no dog in this hunt, and I'm not gonna spend hours researching the case and technical details. If someone finds different details that blows up my theory, more power to them. But if some product fails and badly injures me during reasonable, normal use, I'd sue the manufacturer, too.


The issue with your theory is that we don't know if the stock broke during firing or when the gun hit the ground... If the action came open, threw the brass free, then closed again as the op claimed, all while the scope slammed him in the face, it seems most likely the stock would have broken when it hit the ground as to that point too many other things including his face would have absorbed the recoil that would have been necessary to break the pistol grip in half...

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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
I haven't read the whole thread, but after seeing the recent pictures I am more favorably disposed toward the owner. Originally I was inclined to think him a whiner trying to make a profit.

Apparently, the stock failed, causing the rest of the gun to strike him in the face and do serious injury. A failure of the stock is caused by the effects of recoil, not chamber pressure.

It's meaningless that his handloads were a bit above book. It was straight line force that did the damage, and his "8% over book load" probably made about 2-3% more recoil above a factory load.

The Encore is sold in calibers larger than the .300 win mag, like the .35 Whelan, .45-70, and 12 gauge, which presumably kick as hard or harder than even a warm loaded .300 mag. And T/c should have made a stock strong enough to handle anything they chamber.

I have no dog in this hunt, and I'm not gonna spend hours researching the case and technical details. If someone finds different details that blows up my theory, more power to them. But if some product fails and badly injures me during reasonable, normal use, I'd sue the manufacturer, too.


The other issue is he keeps saying the action failed due to design flaws all while failing to mention the pistol grip broke in half. We have no idea if what he says is actually true regarding the action but if the same thing happened to me I'd be suing over the design of said pistol grip and not the action as ge claimed as which is more believable, a grip busting under recoil or his version of events?

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Originally Posted by smokepole

Originally Posted by RWE
The gun fell and broke the stock as gravity and momentum closed the action?


What he said in the other thread was, the action blew open and that's what broke the stock. I have an Encore muzzleloader, and if it blew open and fell to the ground, I could see how it could easily fall in a closed position like that.

It doesn't really matter though, that photo proves nothing. No one here knows the circumstances under which it was taken, or whether it's an accurate portrayal of what happened. Could have been staged, or it could have been disturbed.


What does matter is that we've been led down the "catastrophic failure" path, talking loads, head space, faulty design and other guns out of tolerance, pressure, SAAMI spec, etc and trying to get more information of same, with visions of Steelhead's vaporized Savage in our heads.

Come to find out by the photo that the gun is actually "intact" by most accounts with the exception of the stock, posts from other forums where the OP can't recite what actually failed on the gun, and only a hypothesis on the mechanism of injury,

Seems awfully light for a 10 year trial synopsis.

Steelhead's right. This is a post by someone trying to defame the plaintiff.

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I thought it was a post by the plaintiff?



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Yes, supposed to be by the plaintiff.

But I would like to think that someone that just sued a firearm maker for 10 years of struggle and that went through the trouble of putting this thing on 10 sites that I found, would have a little more information, and forthcoming of same.

As it stands, it is in the realm of tinfoilness that someone catfished the plaintiff's ID, and posted a bunch of stuff to make him appear a fool.

Because right now, based on this thread, and every other thread posted on other website forums, he's getting his ass handed to him.

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All the Encore owners I've met could use a solid clunk on the head.

Know your customer!

Bravo, T/C.



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Originally Posted by heavywalker
That is why many of us would like to know what the pressure actually was?

Was it tested in a Lab, with a pressure barrel?

If it was and it fell within SAAMI spec then we can conclude that it may have been a design flaw that caused the failure. However all that Brian has provided is that they were at max but not over, with no backup info is suspect since by his own admission he was well over book max for the cartridge.

Just what exactly are we supposed to take away from this if we don't know the facts. Brian would like us all to not buy anything from TC, which is obvious. But the lesson could easily be don't be a dumbass when you reload and think you know about pressure when you really don't know about pressure.


heavywalker,
I don’t think anyone will acusse you and a lot of other people on this forum of mincing words. HAHA!

I got the information from my gun expert, and load data software.

The T/C Arms team of experts and lawyers never took my (cartridges, components, etc. or similar) performed pressure testing and submitted Brian Ward’s load produces XX,XXX amount of PSI. In my opinion it would have definitely proven all the ranting and raving about over pressure rounds false.

In turn and unknown to me until trial, my team matched that action (stupidly in my opinion) and did not get a lab test for my rounds and relied on load programs as far as I know. Later the defense was able to get that evidence from my expert and load programs thrown out and the PSI of my cartridge’s was not allowed to be presented to the jury.

Kind of frustrating to say the least. In my opinion the jury does not hear even close to the whole truth in a case.



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