Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Crappy shooting Montana (for real)!

Everybody likes the Montana here so I figured I'd give one a try. Got a line on a used one in the somewhat rare and my favorite caliber, the .260 Rem. Really like the feel of the action and stock, I could see why everybody likes the.

I was out of 120 TTSX which I had been shooting in my Rem 700 in .260 Rem so I grabbed some 120gr Hornady GMX. I loaded a few with some H4831sc and some with some H4350. I also grabbed some leftover loads for my other .260 Rem loaded with 120gr TTSX and a box of factory 120gr Federal Fusion.

I headed to the range last week end to see what she would do, that's when things started to go down.

First the Factory Fusion. Figured it was not great but its factory ammo, my handloads should tightened that up.



120gr GMX with H4350. Nope, not any better.



120gr GMX with H4831sc. Even worst! The third shot of this group hit the target to the left of it, about 10" to the left (the 46gr of H4350 target, the hole to the bottom left!).


120gr TTSX. Obviously this rifle doesn't like the GMX. Surely my old standard load should fix things up. Nope.


This is at 100 yds, Kimber Montana in .260 Rem with a VXIII 3.5-10x40 in Talley LW.

I had a quick look at Shortactionsmoker's tutorial before heading out to the range but figured mine would be one of the good ones. I'll take it apart this week end and re-read the tutorial!

You need to borrow some targets from BSA hunter, his are never over 1/2 inch...

I got one last week,waiting on mounts guess ill find out soon enough.

I feel your pain. I went to Pac-nor.

Still working with the rifle, but at least now the cold bore shots are very consistent. With the factory barrel it would only group well if the barrel was warm, and you spaced your shots just right. Which of course is useless for a hunting rifle.

That sucks.



Travis

Bummer, probably definitely something amiss. I will note that if I shoot mine off a bipod without holding the forend at all it looks kind of like that. Not quite so bad, maybe like the Fusion load. But hold it like you're hunting and it shoots lights out.

Holy hell Batman! I think you might have lost at Kimber Roulettte!.............Good luck........Hb

Steve, hope you get things sorted out. SAS's remedies should cure what ails.

Copper fouled barrel?

For the money that kimbers cost, why do people tolerate that level of shoddy workmanship?

Have you tried some lead bullets? I've found monos are more finicky with seating depth.

USED Kimber.
Mystery solved.

When you buy a Kimber you're not paying for workmanship. At that price or even less there are rifles with better workmanship. You are paying a premium for a rifle that is 2-3 lbs lighter than the competition. If you want a rifle that weighs under 6 lbs scoped it is a bargain. Anything else at that weight will cost 2X-3X more.

It's a wonderful design.

But whoever accepted the barrel on mine should have to eat it

I have two Kimber rifles, and a 1911 pistol. They have wonderful designs, and then cut corners on them to save a few bucks.

If Ruger can put nice barrels on American Rifles, that sell for 1/2 the Kimber's price, there's not much excuse for Kimber using crappy barrels.

I would follow SAS tutorial. I have a 260Rem that shot fine until I had it cerakoted and rebedded by the fellow doing the cerakote. Shot crap and the bedding job is rubbish. This weekend with SAS tutorial I will bed it myself.

Can't understand why people whinge about Kimbers when just about every new, or used, rifle I have had has needed work. Bedding to start with.

Hope you can get yours shooting well. Look forward to following the progress.

Don't despair. Give the bore a good cleaning with something like Wipe-Out, then do the SAS thing and it should shoot fine.
Buying a used rifle is always a crap shoot but with a little effort it will be fine.
Of course this comes from a guy that bought a used M700 in 223 and after a barrel, stock and gunsmithing it shoots lights out but cost 3X the original price.
Rifle loonies, what can I say?

I'll second that...... The targets look like mine chambered in 7mm-08.

Dave

There are many reasons that could be causing you trouble from bedding problems to a bad or damaged crown or just a bad or horribly fouled barrel. I have worked with a noted rimfire gunsmith (I know yours is not a rimfire but accuracy is accuracy) and can tell you that even some of the top custom barrel makers occasionally make barrels that are just not up to par and factory barrels are just a crap shoot.

One thing that rimfire gunsmiths routinely do is slug the barrel (that is push a bullet down the bore with a rod) looking for tight and loose spots. This is done to assess the quality of the bore and for the gunsmith to locate a tight spot near the muzzle end, where he will cut and crown the barrel. Most custom barrels are now taper lapped so that the tightest spot is at muzzle end. Ideally, when slugging a barrel it should take constant pressure to push the slug down the barrel. If it suddenly gets easy to push the slug, you are at a loose spot. If it's loose enough you will get gas blow-by and if the loose spot is at the muzzle there is just no way it will shoot well. If you re-barrel, have your smith slug the barrel and tell him you want it cut and crowned at a tight spot, while giving him a minimum barrel length that will be acceptable for you. Having a gunsmith slug and/or bore scope your factory barrel should identify any problems with it. All accuracy problems are fixable. I would have it re-barreled by a good smith before I would send it back to Kimber.

Maybe I'm nuts but when I buy a rifle I expect it to shoot. Maybe Ive just been lucky.

Mine too. It shoots something like the OP's 260. Which is to say, it sucks

After 4-5 range session I concluded ..."this thing is sick",and tossed it in a corner.

But before I did I pulled it apart and took a close look.The guys like SAS are right and here's what I found myself. YMMV.

First, yes the mag box is binding on the bottom of the magazine well. All the tell tale shiny spots are down there.

Second when I loosened the guard screws, the action just fell out...nothing "tight" about the bedding at all,even though it "looks" perfect.

I removed the mag box and follower ,and just dropped the barreled action back into the stock. It now dropped into the stock so low that the barrel (which looked perfectly centered and floated),now made contact with the stock.It was no longer "floated".

Put this all together, and we see that with the guard screws tightened, the barreled action was "bedding" and tightening up on the top of the mag box and not making contact with the bedding surface of the stock at all...at least in the front of the action.

I had heard here about the mag box "binding", but didn't think the whole action was bedded on it...ain't hard to figure why it doesn't shoot.

I also recall Stick saying to bed the recoil lug "tight"...at least that's my memory. That in mind and with screws out, I found the action would rock and roll side to side in the stock. I think I understand what he was saying....that little action could easily roll around under the stress of shooting.

I think the fix is easy enough....bed properly and high enough to avoid the mag box thing, grind it down if necessary,be sure the tube floats. And I will bed that lug so there's no side to side rock and roll. Tight.

All stress free of course.Will see if all that works. I am not ready to trash the barrel...based on what I see. It can't possibly shoot with dogshidt bedding. Have to fix the obvious sickness first.The best barrel in the world will not shoot with lousy bedding.

But I'm no gunsmith.

^^^^^^

This

So it doesn't matter if it shoots good or not?


Can you tell I'm not a Kimber lover?

Bet he doesn't blow up guns though.....


BCSteve, hope you can figure it out soon.

Berger's twist rate calculator shows the 120 GMX as being real marginal on stability in a 9 twist. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's most of the reason for the truly abysmal accuracy there.

Otherwise the rifle looks like it just needs the SAS treatment, and I suspect it will be shooting fine. Funny thing is, depending on the order in which the Fusions were shot, if you had stopped at three shots some of the groups would have been just over the magic MOA everyone seems to think is necessary to kill a deer. This is a good example of why a person shouldn't rely on 3 shot groups to determine accuracy.

Have you thought about another scope?

I know of a few members here who had trouble with 260 MT's(several years ago).

Pretty sure that was the trouble child for Kimber.

It's interesting that the groups seemed to get worse as you went along.

Bad scope? Cracked mount or ring? All the other stuff of course.

I've seen a lot on here about proper bench technique for light rifles. If you're not experienced in that area, you might want to ask someone who is so you can properly evaluate the progress you hopefully will make finding the problem.

Good luck. It's tough when you get all fired up about a new toy and then run into trouble.

The .260 quietly left the Kimber lineup after a year or so. I think Kimber hired grief counselors for their "customer service".

Those targets look like most of the Ruger 77s that I have owned.

Fortunately I have a Kimber Montana in 300 WSM that makes holes just like BSA's targets.

donsm70

With a used 260 this was my first thought as well, but I would double check the scope/mounts first and then try the SAS treatment before reaching that conclusion.

I remember reading about that, now that you mention it. I've always wondered if they dropped the chambering because of poor sales, or because of possible accuracy issues.

Good idea here. The SAS/brad treatment should be pursued.

In case there is anyone relatively inexperienced out there reading this, it isn't the cartridge that is problematic. The 260 Remington is easy to work with.

I have two Montanas; a 257R (purchased used) and a 708. The 708 shot about like your 260 and the 257R was even worse. I followed Stick's and SAS treatment and both shoot great now. The biggest problem, as far as I can tell, was the bedding.

This is what I did to improve the accuracy of my 708:
-lightened the trigger
-had the crown touched up (it was really rough)
-fully floated the barrel back to the lug
-bedded the lug tight and drimmeled under for some clearance.
-replaced the front guard screw with a Rem 700 (had to trim down a few threads)

I'm still in the load development stage so most of my groups are 50 yds but it give you an idea of how it will shoot. I've tried 120 NBT, 120 TTSX, 140 AB and 140 NBT and get good accuracy with everything so far.

120 TTSX and RL-15



the crown before it was touched up


Good luck with the 260

On the handguns, I think it's because they look fancy.

On the long guns, it's a mystery to me.

Never understood the rolling of the dice by so many.

When you get ready to sell.... Let me know... Seriously

Same here. I own 7 Kimbers (3 Montanas, 2 Classics, 2 Classic Selects) and they are all shooters. Maybe I should buy a Lotto ticket from what I'm reading here.

lochsa I would not be surprised to see a good bedding job give those results.It doesn't take 5 minutes to check this stuff. The bedding on mine is so obviously "bad" you really can't miss it.

I've had a 257 Roberts Montana that shot great; but I think every Kimber should come with an "Possible Assembly Required" warning label on the box.

I figured this thread would get attention.

To answer some of the questions and comments.

I was shooting with a front rest and a rear bag but was holding the forend behind the rest to reduce the hop off the bag instead of letting it free recoil.

The rings are new and not cracked. The scope is proven but I may try a different one that the road if nothing else works.

I have some 140gr A-Max, SMK's, Scenars and 130gr Bergers that I may load to try if a "target" bullet would be more accurate.

The barrel was scrubbed down to metal and DBC applied. Shot 10-12 rounds to cure the product and cleaned with Wipe-out prior to this range session. I cleaned the barrel with Wipe-out after this range session and it didn't appear to be overly dirty.

I'm going to take it out of the stock tomorrow and check the mag box, action screw length and scope base screws to start with.

Fingers crossed.

Steve drop the action back into the stock without the mag box. Be interested in what you see.

Its a simple fix.
Recrown
Glass bed
True and shorten the action screws
Float the barrel
Lapp the barrel
Square the face
Replace the trigger
Then all you'll need to do is load 6-10 different bullets in increments of .5gr with 4-5 separate powders in lapua brass and switching primers throughout.
Then using benchrest setup and sandbags on a windless day at 72 degrees with the sun behind your left shoulder fire each round, stopping to allow the barrel to cool while an Indian medicine man blows sage and tobacco down the barrel.
That should reduce your groups to 2" or so.
Perfectly acceptable for a hunting rifle.

Tikka superlight baby!

Half the price.

All of mine shot like that off to gunbroker!

Yep, but Tikkas are ugly. Course, I don't own a Montanna either, too light for my taste.


Dave.

This...and snap a pic of the bottom of the mag well. The 260's have been around for a while now. If it's been shot much and there are issues underneath the stock, a quick glance should tell the story. I bet there are lots of shiny spots on the metal and the paint may even be gone in a few places.

I don't even enjoy tinkering that much but still managed to figure out how to follow the check list.

Would I have figured out potential issues on my own?

No.

Is it easy to fix any issues?

Yes.


Unless there is a barrel issue it's really pretty simple fixes.

Bed, check screws and mag-box, maybe tweak the trigger.

Shoot the rifle.

Darrik, the 84L 270 I ordered from you guys appears to be a pretty consistent rifle. Pull the action from the stock(replace) and it retains it's 400 yard dot zero.
Accuracy from a cool to fairly warm barrel remains totally acceptable for a lightweight hunting rifle.

First 9 Accubonds fired at a target(last Tuesday?), from the dirt, slight breeze, 69F in the shade, 6x scope. Of course I have really good frikken medicine man!




FWIW, I bedded the tang along with the lug and about 3" forward of the lug. Barrel is totally floated from bedding to muzzle.

I agree, and I don't have near enough time or patience to fart around with $1000 rifles trying to get them to shoot. My Nosler Patriot was as easy as my Tikkas to deal with.

Nice shooting Sam. Looks like a keeper.

Everyone keeps mentioning SAS's / Sticks checklist. While I don't own a Montana, I'd be interested in reading the thread.

Anyone got a link?

Kimber is a "for chit" company posing as a reliable firearms manufacture.
They only stay in business because advertising dollars and a cult following.
I mean who can't install the correct action screws?
They obviously have a retarded blind man in QC.
I have a buddy, Tim Wilson who bought a new Ultra Carry , before there was a II..
He came by the shop and had a set of Wilson combat slim grips installed and bought some Lawman 230's...and hour later he showed up with a target showing obvious keyholing.
We disassembled the pistol and there was no rifling in the barrel.
Limber gave him a return authorization number finally but wouldn't pick up the shipping.
5 weeks later they returned the pistol with a new barrel and a receipt saying " could not duplicate problem".
Furthermore they cracked one of the grips and kep5 his magazine and charged him $40 return shipping.
Fk em!

I ordered an 8400 from them once. Talk about a complete disaster. The Montana is great concept and if you get a good one I can certainly see the appeal. I don't think I'll ever buy any more Kimber products though.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8486078/Montana_tinkering....

Thanks Whttail.

I got three Montana's right now (7 WSM, 280 AI, 223 Rem). None required anything special to make them shoot. I plan to put together another 7 WSM and then add a 7mm-08 later this year.

In Brian Pearce's article in "Rifle" this month, he says that there are credible reports about Kimber barrel problems, but that he hasn't experienced any himself.

Pearce is one writer I really trust to tell it straight.

J. B. too of course, but don't tell him I said so.

This. And with a 260 with a 9 twist, 120 grain lead bullets are probably going to be your best bet. My experience with monos is they like twist and velocity.

I'm 50/50 with my Kimber exploits. I found happiness with a 308 Montana. Good enough. The lightweight 308 will do about anything in NA.

Well I took it apart tonight. And when through SAS's tips.

The front action screw is not bottoming out.

The mag box is not bottoming out either. Took the follower out and re-assembled it with the box only and there's some nice wiggle room.

The only culprit (and one the more minor one I believe) was the front Talley screw which was bottoming out. A few pass with a file took care of it.

Barrel is squeaky clean, crown looks good. Trigger is nice and light. Barrel is free floated to the front of the chamber

I'll try her again with some of the target bullets and some 129 and 140 Hornady IL I have and see if that scope base screw could have made such a big difference.

Next step after that will be bedding (even though it looks good now).

The reason I went with the Rem 700 guard screw was to gain a few more threads. They are too long to start so the have to be cut down. After bedding, the kimber guard screw was a bit short. It probably would have worked fine though.


If you just bed the recoil lug, you shouldn't have an issue.

As far as the bedding goes, my experience is that it looks "too" pretty. In other words, I highly doubt that they bed each individual receiver but probably have a bunch of blank receivers that they use for setting up the bedding. Thus the bedding looks nice but essentially accomplishes nothing since it does not conform to your individual receiver. That's just my theory and I certainly have no proof but I'm skeptical that a production line can bed every unique action.
If that's the case, a skim bedding might prove very helpful.

I've seen that front scope mount screw cause serious issues with a savage's ability to group...when it is bottoming out !

They don't.

They are bedded with a 'slave' action in the factory where the stocks are manufactured. Then the stocks are sent to the factory where the barrelled actions are made then are put together. I know the wood stocks are made in Costa Rica not sure if the Montana stocks are made there too. Bedding always looks nice but doesn't necessarily fit the action that gets put in it.

Bingo!

My 308 Montana shot well enough without bedding, but I did it anyway. It's just what I have to do with my rifles to be sure they are shooting as well as I can get them to.

Bedding helped mine even after all the other tweaks.

Personally I would not even shoot it before skim bedding the action. 50% chance it will only cause further frustration if you do not skim bed.

Pieter

get a finnlight

Aye, mate!

If they don't bed it to the specific actions, why bed it?
Are they so lacking in knowledge that they think it actually doesn't matter or are they attempting to get over on buyers that don't know better?

They will fit as well as any other action that is not bedded. Kimbers mistake is leaving the impression that each rifle is individually bedded to the stock it is placed in. Yes it is bedding but not real bedding as it is commonly thought of, should be called moulded inletting. Neither does the factory inletting on Rugers, Remingtons, tikkas ,Sakos and many others including aftermarket stocks like McMillan, B&C, Hogue, HS Precision, etc fit each action perfectly without bedding them. I don't know why they don't bed them like Winchesters or brownings but then again those rifles are not without bedding/accuracy issues also.

I think you might have nailed it. They're simply trying to screw anyone who buys one of their rifles. The big wigs at Kimber recognize that anyone who buys one of their rifles has to be a certified and verifiable moron, so you get what you get.

As some have pointed out, these are factory rifles with a few different options and ideas attached, but they are still factory rifles. They are not custom rifles.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I've been an obvious moron 7 times in my life and I'm planning on being one again at least once more based on my experience with them. So apparently not all Kimber rifles are like what some would like to portray them to be for whatever reasons. but they are still a factory rifle.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions. In that case, 10 minutes with a Dremel and a teaspoon of bedding compound should do wonders.

Just saw on kimbers website that their rifle are supposed to be moa or better when being fired by a qualified shooter with factory ammo. My guess is there customer service would say anyone who complains is not qualified. Still can't decide if I should get one in .223 or wait on a stainless m7.

I'd buy a 223 Montana in a heartbeat.

Yes, get the darn Kimber 84m 223 in a heartbeat. I have one and it feels superb in the hand.

I just got my 223 bedded actually and was hoping for some advice from those that know.

The lug is bedded super tight and the bedding goes to under the shank. Do I need to dremel out the bottom of the recoil lug? How would I know if it is bottoming out or if so, even needs to be relieved.

Thank you all

I'd bet they are using a machine rest and just the barreled action for that guarantee test.

If it were me, I'd get rid of the bedding under the lug. That's once place in the bedding I don't want any contact. I do believe the Kimber benefits from a tight lug, but I don't want anything underneath it.

Thanks SAS, I actually got this little rifle from you and a note to all : It was an extremely smooth and pleasurably experience buying a rifle from SAS and Whittaker's

Ya' know, if you spend $1250 on a rifle, you should have reasonable expectations of promised accuracy. I could have bought 3 Ruger American All-weather rifles for the money I spent on the Kimber and got twice the accuracy. No thanks. I learned my lesson. This is just my informed first hand opinion. Sorry for the rant, not meant to offend.

Dave

Not meant to offend,but if you aren't buying the Montana for all the reason's that it's different from an American,then you really shouldn't be buying the Montana.

I bought the Montana for a light weight packing rifle that was still accurate regardless of the lighter weight. I have an American that doubles the accuracy with on 8 ounces more weight that is accurate and still easy packing.

Don't want an argument here, just stating pure fact from MY experience. Now if my ordered Cooper rifle doesn't shoot well I will be REALLY upset .

Dave

"Pure fact from MY experience."

I laughed.

How did you get on with the rifle BCSteve?

I would be shocked if your Copper does not shoot lights out, unlike Kimber rifles I have never seen a Cooper that didnt shoot at least MOA right out of the box.....No gunsmithing required..........Good luck ....Hb

Went back to the range this morning, a balmy 30* Celcius.

I was curious to see if shortening that scope mount screw that was bottoming would make a difference. I also had a couple new loads to try.

First up was the factory Federal 120gr Fusion


Some 140gr Hornady SST that I had put together to seasoned the barrel when I applied DBC to the barrel. No idea what the load is and don't care with those results.



Some 140gr Hornady IL with an unknown load. Some left over of something. About 1.5" for three, not that bad.



140gr A-Max with 42gr of H4350. Again, 4 in about 1.5", not great but better than before.



139gr Scenars, 42gr H4350. 4 in almost 1".



Not too sure what to make of today's results. Some of the groups were just as bad as last time yet some show some potential. Next step is going to be bedding.

Don't return it to Kimber. Their CS is about as bad as it gets.

And you may well be on the road to fixing your rifle yourself.

Good luck,

Steve

Float the barrel all the way to the recoil lug

If that fails then full bed all the way to the tip or try 15 lbs of tip pressure as many thin barrels like to be dampened

As a last ditch effort and I mean last ditch.....send it back to Kimber

BTW.....be for warned.....Kimber customer service manager "Allen" is a lying POS and I hope you dont have to deal with that bastid sob

Also......Kimber gives no accuracy guarantee

Those last two loads have potential. Try those again but try experimenting with LOA, i.e. Bullet seating depth. Make sure that the crosshairs are in the same place (vertical) each time.

I think an example of why Kimber dropped the .260Rem..

Really.........well I dang near cried being duped by Kimber. Learned my lesson.

Same here.

I've yet to see a "bad" Montucky,but have seen a few that folks thought were "bad". Hint.

Start at the fhuqking start.

Re-hint.

Funny how things so glaring,reliably stump the masses...and I mean fhuqking FUNNY.

Wow............

My bad experience with Kimber wasn't with a Montana. It was a model 84L. After having dealt with Kimbers CS dept and seeing the low quality of these guns and the piss poor repair work done by them there is no need for me to ever buy another.

Agreed but unfortunately, neither of those loads use what I would consider hunting bullets (flame suit on) . Although, push come to shove, I'm sure either of those two would work.

First of all, with all due apologies to Larry, AKA, Big Stick, if you are having trouble getting that Kimber to shoot, here is a trouble free solution- Sell it, and go buy a Tikka. I have never ever shot a Kimber in my life, but apparently there is a certain amount of tinkering that often comes with the package. Even me, who has little interest in Kimbers could find that tinkering recipe quite quickly on here, and if you don't have that much interest, you probably would be happier with a Tikka. Or one of those new Rugers, whatever they are called.
And, Larry, by way of spilling my guts about photo equipment, I am at the point where dollars spent finding animals to photo pays bigger dividends than a new camera body. Looking for a good place to photo caribou, maybe the Toquin Valley in Jasper.

Royce

WTF!?! What makes you think I don't have interest in tinkering and making my rifle shoot? Weird post....

Because if the first thing you do after shooting groups that are more like patterns is to post them on the internet, I would suspect that you aren't too interested in tinkering with a rifle. If I come home from the range after shooting groups like that, my first inclination is to find out what the f is wrong, not post pictures of a train wreck on the 'Fire.
Next question?