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I had (am having) a hard time "explaining" to an "E-mailer" that I feel 1/4" adjustments in a scope used for Varminting is "FINE enough" in the way of adjustments!
Part of my "difficulty" in satisfying his opinion (he feels a scope must have 1/8th inch adjustments to be an "effective" Varminting optic!) is that I am not able to relay convincingly anyway, that with a scope having 1/4" adjustments your bullet is going to be able to be adjusted to "within" 1/8th of an inch - of a Varminters intended P.O.I. (point of impact).
Our conversation has subsided now but I am not sure I successfully relayed my thoughts to him.
He wants a Leupold scope in 6.5x20 power range but it comes only with 1/4" adjustments - where as a Nikon in the 6x24 power range has 1/8" adjustments.
I can visualize what I want to relay to him but its hard to "verbalize" or write down my opinion on the 1/4" vs/ 1/8" adjustments.
I have used the Leupolds by the dozens over the decades with their 1/4" adjustments and have not felt lacking in any of my Rifle/scope combos to date.
I quit shooting though out at 550 to 600 yards.
I also own several Nikon 6.5x20's with the 1/8" adjustments and do not feel they offer a significant advantage over the 1/4" adjustable Leupolds (and several other brands I own with 1/4" adjustments).
Any thoughts on Varminting with 1/4" adjustment scopes vs. 1/8" adjustment scopes?
I certainly would not pass on a scope because it had 1/8" adjustments but I also would not pass up a scope because it ONLY had 1/4" adjustments.
If I am "calculating" things correctly with a 1/4" adjustment scope a shooter could CHOOSE his point of impact and be within 5/8" of an inch out at 500 yards (5 times 1/8" at 100 yards - or 5/8") whereas with a 1/8" adjustment scope a shooter could choose his point of impact and be within 5/16" of an inch at 500 yards (5 times 1/16" at 100 yards = or 5/16") - there are a lot of "condition variables" that would make a lot more difference out at 500 yards than the difference inolved by using a scope with 1/4" adjustments vs. a scope with 1/8" adjustments!
Am I making my contention clear here?
Would enjoy your views, preferences and/or opinions.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: I am dealing/shopping right now for a new scope to be used on my XR-100 in 22-250 Remington caliber. And I want a high power variable (6.5x20 or 6x24 etc for it) and the click adjustment values are not high on my priority list - price is foremost criterion and quality is right next to that!

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If someone thinks he/she can hold to 1/8 inch difference out to 500 yards on a game animal, I just want to watch them shoot. Is his group so good that he feels the 1/8 vs 1/4 is going to make the rifle shoot better? It would be interesting to mount one with 1/8 adjustments and shoot at 500yds.Then swap to a 1/4" and shoot again. Bottom line is let him buy what he wants and you will not have to listen if something is not to his liking. I have used both but now don't have any 1/8" adjusters.Rick.

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Ricksmith: Amen to a human holding to within 5/16" or even 5/8" at 500 yards.
Let alone all the atmospheric conditions that would negate that tiny difference in "built in" dispersion of the P.O.I.
I have a phone call in now for a Nikon 6.5x20 (used but like new) and if I am not mistaken they are about the only folks (Nikon) that make a scope that I own that adjusts to 1/8"?
I think my Unertl BV-20 adjusts in 1/8" or 1/8th M.O.A. IIRC.
Scopes, no matter if they are 1/4" adjustable or 1/8" adjustable are just to dang expensive anymore - here I am dealing on a "used" scope for a new Rifle.
Times have sure changed in the retail scope world.
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You are correct about the effective change being half of the adjustment number. Consider that if your rifle shoots a two-inch group, a bullet will hit within ONE inch of your aimpoint (assuming your group centers on your POA).

Since the likelihood is that the next bullet will always land within half the gun's average group size, it makes little sense to have scope adjustments larger than that (1/2 the group size). And likewise, it makes little sense to have scope adjustments smaller than half the group size, because group dispersion will be twice that much, anyway.

That being true, unless a rifle is shooting groups consistently smaller than 1/4 MOA, it simply cannot make use of scope adjustments as small as 1/8 MOA. Even if you put in two clicks, you'd never know if the next shot will move at all, because your group size is larger than the correction.


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RockyRaab: Thats what I was trying to relay!
Thank you very much for helping clear my cluttered thought process.
Thanks again.
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I will be the naysayer here - I do not see the reason for convincing the person that 1/8th clicks are superior to 1/4 clicks. If he feels that he wants or needs 1/8 clicks why does he have to be convinced otherwise, after all it is his scope and his choice and his money. It would be a very boring world if we all thought the same and used the same equipment.

I agree that it is unneccesary to have 1/8th clicks on a varmint rifle but if that is what he wants why shouldn't he have them whether he and his equipment are capable of adustments that small.

You did not mention the price of the scopes that he is looking at but perhaps he is using the same criteria as you state that you use when looking for a scope - price and quality.


223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.

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Oh, nobody said he can't have it. Until November, it's still a free country, LOL!

But it's a bit like the guy who insists on having his moose rifle shoot 1/4 MOA groups. Completely unnecessary, but within his rights to strive for.


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Agreed completely!

Unfortunately you are probably correct about November no matter who is elected.


223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.

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If you think that's tough to do, try convincing someone that a tactical scope with 1 MOA elevation and 1/2 MOA windage is just as precise as a 1/4 MOA scope. Again, it boils down to nobody can hold that close. Up close, 100, maybe 200 yds., yes. Try it at 500-800 yds.
I think you explained it fine. He's just got his mind made up that a 1/8 MOA scope has an edge. He needs to try it himself. E

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I have a Remington .223 VSSF that I had a Leupold 6.5 X 20 on and I changed it out for a Burris 6 X 24 Signature with 1/8" adjustment I like it better.


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17ACKLEYBEE: Johnny, what do you like better the extra 4 power or the fine adjustments (1/8 vs 1/4)?
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I shoot in a varmint league and find it invaluable to have a scope with 1/8 adjustments when I need to hit a 2 inch bull every shot. I feel like I can get my scope better zeroed with the 1/8 adjustments.

We shoot prone with a bipod, so I feel like I can hold it that well.

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Originally Posted by VarmintGuy
17ACKLEYBEE: Johnny, what do you like better the extra 4 power or the fine adjustments (1/8 vs 1/4)?
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VarmintGuy


VG since on hot days you don't usually get much over 12 power it's the clicks. I find them more useful on windage than I do on elevation.

It's on my .223 colony varmint gun.

Last edited by 17ACKLEYBEE; 02/18/08.

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Well, I have a Nikon 6.5x20 with the 1/8" clicks, and I'd be happy to trade even up for anyones Leupold 6.5x20. Honest.... I would.

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Kyreloader: How far away is that 2" bullseye?
Sounds like a fun shoot.
Getting me to fire my Varmint Rifles at anything but fur and feather is like pulling teeth though.
I swear the last time I had a Varminter re-barreled and suffering the indignity of that expense - I swore I would never do it again!
My thinking is shoot the Rifle til its tired and sell it - buy a new one!
How many rounds do you go through in a Varmint match?

17ACKLEYBEE: I shoot at high powers even when the "river is running" (mirage is making the target appear to be in a place it isn't!). I have found the mirage effect is the same at high power as it is at lower power. Maybe you are referring to the target being "blurred" somewhat at the higher powers. I grant you that but still I feel its beneficial to shoot at the higher powers even when mirage is present as I get more hits at higher power.

Kaiser Norton: I have several Nikon 6.5x20's and a couple dozen Leupold 6.5x20's - I like them both myself but would not trade the Leupold for the Nikon. Its not just a money thing I trust the Leupold completely and I KNOW they are virtually immune to harsh conditions.
They are both fine scopes.
I try to buy all my scopes used anymore - the retail prices are just horrific these days.

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VarmintGuy,

Very interesting discussion.

A different topic than the norm.

Colonel Jeff Cooper made a very similar argument to yours concerning the necessary practical accuracy of a rifle in the field (as opposed to a target rifle). Cooper argued that a rifle used in the field against man or large game did not need a level of accuracy beyond which its shooter could make use of. He argued that any 2 MOA rifle would put its bullet within one MOA of the intended POI -- close enough on large game under 300 yards.

In attending four courses under his direction at Gunsite, don't think the Saturday morning shoot-off was ever won by the best gun as opposed to the best man.

Of course, we all like accurate rifles, but at what level of accuracy do the benefits seen in the field diminish as compared to their effort. Cooper always thought we needed to put more effort into improving the shooter, the weak link, and less attention on the tool, the part we like to admire around the campfire.

By the way, what were the click adjustments in terms of MOA on the Garand rifle ?

.


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VarmintGuy,

On another note...

A Nightforce salesperson told me that their benchrest model scope has 1/8 MOA adjustments as opposed to their NXS model that has 1/4 MOA adjustments.

He was telling me the downside to this is that the finer adjustments on the benchrest model give half the total range of adjustment than the NXS model.

That is, if the benchrest model had a 100-inches of vertical adjustment at a given range then the coarser NXS model would have 200-inches at that same range.

Is that right ?



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