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I want to know from some of the experienced bullet casters if you have had better results by heat treating to get the hardness you are after, or if altering the alloy to get the desired hardness gives you better results.

By better, I mean less fouling and/or better accuracy.


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Personally, I would check bullet fit before I go chasing a specific hardness to reduce fouling. This means slugging your bore and cylinder throats, then sizing 0.001" to 0.002" over. Only then should you start chasing specific hardness.

Too many people try to chase hardness as a solution when bullet fit is often the culprit.

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Originally Posted by War_Eagle
Personally, I would check bullet fit before I go chasing a specific hardness to reduce fouling. This means slugging your bore and cylinder throats, then sizing 0.001 to 0.002 over. Only then should you start chasing specific hardness.

Too many people try to chase hardness as a solution when bullet fit is often the culprit.

I dont see if you are loading for revolver or rifle but War Eagle's comments about bullet fit are spot on.
I have HT when I have been aiming for velocity in excess of 2300fps in my 404 Jeffery but because I had loads from 1400 right through I knew bullet fit was good. In the end a different alloy has given me a load at 2365fps and excellent accuracy. In my 7x57 I run a soft nosed/hard shanked bullet at 2415fps and it is good for meat hunting out to 250yds.


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+2 on War Eagle's comments.

When push came to shove, I opted for alloying to achieve hardness rather than HT'ing. HT'ing is certainly viable, and to be recommended in general. I felt that there were too many variables in play to get repeatable results from one batch to the next, or even between the beginning and end of one batch, ie: melt vs. quench temps, oven temps & heat soak times, etc., etc. Then I wised up to the fact that less velocity, softer alloys, and stricter attention to bullet design and fit equaled better accuracy on paper and animals that were killed more cleanly.

I am intrigued by the "two tone" bullets you are using Von Gruff. Been meaning to delve into it, just haven't gotten around to it yet. Paper patching is another area I want explore too.


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War Eagle hits nail on head with BFH! (biggest finest hammer)

Fit is king!

Alloy modification is great when you get to playing with HP's and want a specific performance at a given velocity.


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
+2 on War Eagle's comments.
I am intrigued by the "two tone" bullets you are using Von Gruff. Been meaning to delve into it, just haven't gotten around to it yet. Paper patching is another area I want explore too.


In some of the pieces I read on PP there was mention of the abrasive nature of some of the papers used in PP and as barrel life is a consideration I have not gone there. Good bullet fit and even a soft alloy can be driven quite fast. I hade quite a bit of 50/50 lino/ww given to me and I ended up alloying it with ww and PB to give me a 43% PB, 37%WW and 20%lino and drive it over 1900fps for good plinking load even though it would make a good hunting load although range would be compromised compared to the softnose at 2415fps. Tjhe softnose is decidedly simple to make especially as 50 or so will last a long time as hunters. The best thing is that a straight lino at the same velocity gives the same POI and accuracy so practice sessions are simplified.

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+4 to bullet fit, bullet fit,bullet fit. You can make a bullet hard enough to shatter and it will still lead if it's too small. Slug your bore, then use an alloy appropriate to the purpose and velocity you're chasing. I've been doing some rudimentary expansion testing with my .308. 50/50 clip-on WW/pure lead. It expands well, holds together, fits the bore, zero leading. But the same can be said for the Lyman #2 and dental x-ray lead bullets I was testing as well. The key is fit. Then decide what you're using the bullet for.


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Bullet fit is everything, then what job do you want the bullet to do.
I was lucky to find some babbit metal at the scrap yard, many years ago. When cleaned uo the metal had a reddish cast, I'm guessing there's copper in it.
The metal made the prettiest, hardest, most accurate cast bullets I ever shot.
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Same sort of experience here as arkypetes. I fell into a huge pile of monotype that had a coppery tint to the cast bullets, and was hard as a banker's heart (this was back in the days before I had a hardness tester, bhn unknown). The rifle bullets cast from it performed beautifully at relatively high velocity(thanks to proper fit no doubt), .45 pistol bullets cast from it leaded like crazy do to woefully improper fit in the chamber throats and forcing cone of that particular gun.


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
When push came to shove, I opted for alloying to achieve hardness rather than HT'ing. HT'ing is certainly viable, and to be recommended in general. I felt that there were too many variables in play to get repeatable results from one batch to the next, or even between the beginning and end of one batch, ie: melt vs. quench temps, oven temps & heat soak times, etc., etc. Then I wised up to the fact that less velocity, softer alloys, and stricter attention to bullet design and fit equaled better accuracy on paper and animals that were killed more cleanly.


Thanks for all the replies! This is the answer I was looking for though.


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I water quench my 405 gr 45-70 slugs, and they do nicely. I don't drive them much over 1300 ft/sec though, so it is likely a moot point.


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Note also, FC, that the only absolute way to achieve consistently exact alloys from one batch to the next is to start with virgin elements. The stuff we all commonly cast our bullets from- ww's, type metal, etc.- all vary to a degree within the formula for their compositions, as well as containing trace elements that may or may not effect hardness/castability. Still, I feel that alloying yields more consistent results than quenching- but quenching is ok. One thing I noticed once when casting a huge batch (over 1200) of .30 rifle bullets out of ww's+tin with the intent of using them over a summer of club competition/practice, and water quenching them to harden them, was that the water temperature rose rapidly in the container I was dropping them in which effected the bhn hardness between the first ones and the last ones. Not a huge difference, and it didn't seem to matter much at the range, but it got me to wondering.

No one said it would be easy/simple!

It's stuff like this that draws many of us into the hobby of casting bullets- delving into the intangibles and having a more intense relationship with our ammo. It adds a dimension that jacketed shooters miss out on, and causes many of them to shake their heads in wonder. (And who knows, they may be right! grin )


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I like simple, hence all my bullets are cast from ww's, and either air cooled or dropped into a 5 gal bucket full of water right from the mold.

Personally I've found that a properly sized gas checked air cooled ww bullet with a good lube will rarely lead and hence water dropping them for hardness is seldom needed. This is for both magum revolvers @ 1200 fps and centerfire rifles @ 2000 fps. But if you are going for the highest velocities, then water quenching has it's place.

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There is also the question of where in the barrel the leading is as to what the needs are. Close to the chamber and it is more likely to be a Fit or a pressure - alloy problem while at the muzzle it is more likely to be a lube, velocity or alloy while full length of the barrel could be all these combined.

First thing to get right is fit and then decide on what the requirements are for the bullet. That will dictate alloy and velocity. Folks are mostly overly concerned about bullet hardness when that is not necessarily the problem.

As noted above for my hunting purposes, I run a two part bullet (much like a Nosler Partition in that it has a soft nose for expansion with a hard rear shank and drive band for pressure - velocity viability) and has a 60gn of 50/50 Pb/ww nose on a 100gn lino shank-drive bands with a home made copper GC. I size the base a thou and a half over grove dia and the bore riding SOFT nose is a thou over bore dia. After sizing and lubing I do tumble lube in LLA mainly for the nose but run at 2415fps still has no leading so even soft lead can be run faster than is often ascribed to it if fit and lube are suficient.
I cleaned my barrel yesterday with over 250 rounds down it and while most of them were a plinking alloy of 47/33/20 (ww/Pb/lino) these are run at 1900fps but with just a aluminium GC and standard lube so, there were also many of my faster loads and there was no leading at all. I have tried WD and HT but have gone away from it as the need isn't there if fit, lube and alloy are matched with need.

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I HT my alloy mainly to extend my WW stash. I mix WW 50/50 with pure lead and then HT in a toaster oven. Fixed temp. Fixed time. Bullets are very consistent hardness. Great mushrooms but hard enough to drive as fast as I drive my cast loads.


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