Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Further on bullet failures.........

I started the initial bullet failure thread to stir up some discussion, and it certainly did that.

Next question....................the Fusion ammunition is priced THE SAME or CHEAPER than factory standard cup and core stuff. (ie Power-Points, Core-locks,etc)

If the Bonded-core fusion does what it says it does, (apparently it is very accurate as well), what reason would there be, for factory ammunition users, to ever use a cup and core bullet again?? Sounds to me like the Fusion gives bonded core performance at cup and core prices...........NO RELOADING REQUIRED. This ammunition should sweep the market.

Fusion users - - please chime in.

I posted current prices in that last thread. The prices are not even close to the same. There is a good cross reference of examples in that thread taken right from a current catalog I have here.

The least expensive bonded core bullets are still about double the standard cup and core price. If you look at the Aframes they are many times more expensive at about 50 bucks for 50 bullets compared to 16 bucks for 100 cup and core bullets.

The Hornady Intebond bullets are less expensive then the Nosler Partition and a much better bullet in every way. So that example would be correct with bonded being cheaper then partitions.

JJ,
I think you misunderstood me. The Fusion ammunition is factory loaded ammunition, not component bullets. It sells here for $19-$20 box for 30.06 which is comparable to Win PP, Federal Power-shok, Rem core-lock, etc.

It is basically a bonded core bullet, except instead of the lead core being "bonded" to the jacket in the conventional sense, the jacket is electroplated on.

www.fusionammo.com

Yeah you're right i have no idea. I have never killed an animal with a factory load except in .22 rinfire.

I'm of absolutely no use to you on this topic!

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!
Relax and take a deep breath! You and I have corresponded by PM before, and I greatly respect your opinion and experience.

It is because of YOU that I started loading Interbonds in my 30.06.

I don't know if you have a burr under your saddle today, or????


Re-read my posts. All I'm asking is if the Fusion AMMUNITION will make standard CUP AND CORE AMMUNITION obsolete, because it is a bonded bullet
at non-bonded prices.

NOTE: We ARE TALKING FACTORY AMMUNITION HERE, NOT COMPONENT BULLETS.

Where is the stress at dude? I just said I am of absolutely no help with those fusion bullets. No anger or stress from me! I have no saddles or burrs

I have only shot a few factory loads in my life mostly to check velocities. Other then that I have never used a single factory load to shoot any game in my whole life.

Nothing I wrote was intended as angry of short tempered, somethimes this internet chat seems to get out of whack in a hurry for no appearant reason!

Explain to me "How" in your opinion the interbond is better in every way than the Nosler?How dead is dead?Can they(Elk) drop any faster with the Interbond than the Nosler?I quit looking when I ran across the Nosler years ago and it has done verything plus some as long as I held up my end.

Here is a little thread on the relative deadness of animals by Scovil.Please tell me which number the Interbond is in your opinion then the Nosler.Quote:

" There is no scale of �relative deadness.� That is, where a 1 would be just �dead� and 2 would be �deader,� 3 would be �stone dead� and so on. Comparing the .45-70 to a .375 H&H might create an inspired debate on the scale of deadness, where the .458 Lott would rate a 9 or 10, �stone cold dead� or �dead �n buried.� This could get outta hand."

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The scale of dead is after the fact. The amount of lead loss and possible failure between jacket and core of the two is considerably better with a bonded bullet.

The accuracy in every gun I own and in every conversation where this has come up has been well in favor of the interbonds plastic tipped design, over the partition.

The cost of the interbond is also much lower. Lets turn the tables a bit and tell me how is the partition superior? What feature does the partition have that exceeds any feature of the interbond?

I guess the bottom line here is if the partition does what you like at the price they want that's great for you. The interbond or most any bonded bullet for that matter far exceeds to performance and reliability on big game. I like the partitions, I have used them for a heck of long time maybe 15-18 years for countless animals from Alaska to Africa. However after the bonded technology came out the partitions were left well behind!

guys,the fusion bullets really perform awsome,i used it this year for deer hunting here in ky,and the deer went straight down that i killed,and my father inlaw shot a nice buck but hit him in the guts by accident of course,and it didnt go more than 80 yards,i have never seen a gut shot deer go down that quick..i will use then from hear on out,and the accrace was really inpresseinve,we both got under 1/2 inch groups from both of our rifles,his was a a-bolt and mine was a model 70 winchester....

You can only answer this,but I heard you used to work for Hornady?Is that true and does it shade your opinion?

I don't do Africa but I have been doing Idaho since my first hunt in the Selway in 1951 and I have seen alot of boolits do there job,some better than others and in steep country,I want "Dead and Burried" as my option for relative deadnuss.Who cares how much lead is lost if it is lost in the right place?Didn't you say bullet cost is moot when it is the one needed most over the spendy binoc's etc etc?
I never said the Partition was superior..It just does the job and what more do we want?

Just a guy that hunts for food and been doing it a long time and bullet selection is a top priority to me from what I have seen on my own time and with my own money...Don't care about Africa or Alaska just putting meat on the table for my family and the Nosler has done it for many years dispite what you think without one bullet failure.

Jayco

Right you are JJ.

I am just making idle chit-chat with this thread anyways, curious to hear experience of others who've tried the Fusion ammo.

No harm, no foul. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Logcutter, ever get the feeling that no matter what you write or say that the other party is not gonna buy it? I kinda get the feeling that this is going that way. That's fine with me. I'm not a salesman trying to collect a commision so It's no loss to me.

We each have personal experience with something that works near perfect with many personal examples of success. It's hard to change when we feel that way. I have used and admired the partition bullet and killed almost every big game during the early years of my hunting career with them. To me they were and probably still are the base line by which all other hunting bullets are judged.

That old statement I posted in the bullet failure thread that goes "at what point during the animals death did the bullet fail" is clever but unrealistic. There are plenty of dead big game rotting on the forest floor from bullets that must have worked. Unfortuntely those animals were never found becuse of the failure of a projectile to either stay together or penetrate straight through. My reply to that clever statement is that bullet failed when you could not locate the animal and he died anyway.

That might be the defining level of "dead" where your question about how dead is dead? Whats the scale of dead? The scale of "dead" to me is in location. If it dies within a limited distance that allows quick recovery that is a far different level of dead then never having been recovered at all.

Of course anything we write here is mostly opinion with a sprinkling of facts for the most part. It's my opinion that the ballistic tip is a far more accurate bullet then the partition. That ballistic, tip boat tail, long slender flat shooting design is pretty much deadly accurate in most rifles. Unfortuntely it's also explosive and un-usable for many big game species. The partition is the Nosler offering that over comes the explosive ballistic tip but has never been known as an extremely accurate bullet. It's also so soft that the tips are nearly always bent and damaged in the magazine. Not that that really matters, they still shoot just fine with a damaged tip. The front half of the partition is designed to be an explosive soft lead that will add to the damage path. It will unfortuntely reduce the weight by 40% or so which then reduces the mass to carry though. They say that the reduction in mass is not a problem because the diameter is so small after the front of the bullet blows back and off that the lighter mass can still drive deep into the game due to the smaller diameter.

In actual practice on game I have shot I believe this to be true. If there is a shortcoming to the design its the extreme accuracy at longer range, lower penetration distance when compared to a bonded bullet, the tip damage in the magazine or just from handling them, and finally the cost. They have become just too expensive when you look at the industry offerings available today.

Now imagine somebody comes along and says What if we made a bullet that was as good or better then the partition, with the accuracy of the ballistic tip? Well Swift seems to have had this idea and began producing the Scirocco. Here is a bullet that has all the best features of the ballistic tip but with a bonded core that will far exceed the internal damage done by a partiton which sheds so much of it's weight and diameter after impact.

Next comes Hornady into the bonded core market. They introduce the interbond bullet which is a dead ringer for the scirroco. How do they get into the game with the scirocco already the big dog in bonded core bullet technology? ................Come into the game at much less cost to the shooter! Up to this point I had used 165 grain A Frames 100% in this 30/06 rifle for many years. I love that bullet and never had a reason to change. I had about 200 loaded and kind of enjoyed the show watching the bonded technology take off. When it came time to reload again for my hunting bullets I used the hornady bullets, inexpensive and equal to the scirocco better built then the partition, and more expansion with a flatter shooting design then the Swift Aframe.

Yep, you guessed it all those things are true. They are the least expensive, best performaing sub 3000fps bullets I have used. If you can find a flaw I would like to know about it. I have pounded 100's of animals with these bullets from my own 30/06 now and have not only never lost one but never been stressed about the shot. They are all dead where they are shot, or located shortly therafter.

That's why I think that they are better in every way to the partition, and at much less cost! 31 bucks for 100 how does the partition beat that?

I'm not an exclusive Hornady user, or a Hornady employee. I shoot Swift A Frames 100% in my 375HH and have now for close to 10 years, maybe 8 years when did they come out? Since the first box I shot at game I have never swayed or used anything else. In my 458 Lott the only other rifle I own I shoot 450 grain X bullets exclusive. So there you have it, I own three rifles and use three different bullets I'm not a company man, I'm a performance driven guy who chooses the best tool for the job. I just so happen to have a lot of faith and experience with the interbond.

For the record, and how you would have known this is beyond me? I did have a business relationship with Hornady during the developement of the XTP handgun bullets. I have not had any input with the interbonds or any rifle bullets and they do not currently pay me a salary.

JJ-As said on Road House,opinions vary!Many people feel the need to test each and every new bullet and design that comes out,but not me.When I find something that works,I stick with it and thats the Partition for me.Cost has nothing to do with it but performance does and as I have said,the Partition has never let me down and recovered bullets on Elk don't happen very often.

I have had experience with the .270 and Winchester Fail Safes/Trophy Bonded and ofcourse the Nosler.The newer Fail Safe was not impressive at all with a pencil hole in and out and a healthy tracking job with a double lung shot.I can't see much difference in "Effect" from the Nosler and Trophy Bonded.Both penetrate extremely well and give an immediate effect on game from the little .270 as it is often called.

In my .300 Win Mag I use nothing but Noslers and there is a noticeable difference on game over the .270,atleast from what I have seen.Accuracy off the bench is one thing and a kneeling or a quick limb to take a shot is another.Hunting Idaho where I do,it is very steep and an immediate effect is needed and the Nosler has provided that time and time again and we just can't put a price tag on having to pack Elk quarters another 100 yards up hill to where you can get the horses too.

When you get into Premium Bullets like the A-Frame/North Fork/Barnes/Nosler/Trophy Bonded and on and on,how in the world is one so much better than the other?Do we base it off of bench rest groups or effects on game where I doubt there is a nickels worth of difference in anyone of them depending where your priorities lie.

I like Panasonic and Toshiba TV's but there is nothing wrong with Zenith or Sony's..So which is best?Consumer reports has there opinion and consumers have there own "personal" experience.Who's is most noteworthy?

I can agree to disagree as long as someone does not harp on bullet cost when pennies per round are involved and alot is at stake in additional and backbreaking work from poor bullet selection or performance.Unlike some others,I am not out to get the best bang for my buck but for what does the job for me and that is without a doubt so far,the Nosler.

Like yourself,from years of use and good results.

Jayco

Never recovered a failsafe or an X bullet.About ten years ago I recovered a factory loaded Federal 200 grain from my 300 Win Trophy Bonded load. Shot moose around 300 yds and cleaned up the bullet and wieghed it.The bullet wieghed 198.6 grains.Last year recovered a Nosler part 7mm 150 grain from moose shot at 300 yards and it was cleaned up and weighed 93.8 grains.I know I'm compairing apples and oranges here as far as calibers and wieght of bullets are concerned but I thought it I would post my bullet weights for the folks who might be interested.As I no longer use either of these bullet's anymore I switched to Barnes for all my reloading needs.As for the Nosler Partition not being accurate as other bullets I don't know my STW load is a one holer if I do my part.

Logcutter

I think that you are missing the point, which is, the inter-bond is noticeably more accurate than the partition plus it does more internal damage, leaving a larger exit wound for easier tracking, all at a lower cost.

Now, this is usually where someone would argue how dead is dead, the partiton kills em just fine, and that is true, but they will not leave a large exit wound. Once the front half of a partition "blows off" it is pretty much caliber size. The partition is a great bullet but it was designed in the 40's, time has caught up and surpassed its performance level.

This is not to say that the partition is not good just that there are better choices today, especially if you are a PH or guide and your lively hood depends on it. JJ is a PH and must choose the absolute best even if its not leaps and bounds above the rest.

Lets be honest a regular cup and core bullet will kill and has been killing game for a long time, and if placed into the lungs usually does a great job, usually....

264 Bore-I was only replying to the Interbond is better than the Partition in everyway.I disagree.How could they if people are shooting one ragged whole like 7STW posted and my accuracy is excellent with them.They do cost .15 cents more but the Barnes is another .11 cents more than the Nosler with the Interbond at .29 cents.

As far as better choices,maybe, but what makes it a better choice if the one you are using does everything you ask of it including accuracy?How could it get any better?Does that mean the Interbond is better than the Barnes or the A-Frame/North Fork etc because they cost more?

I have never tried the Interbond because the Nosler shoots as good out of my rifle as any bullet could and it puts game like Elk "Down Now" if I do my part so I have know need to explore bullets any farther for a .15 cent savings in cost.

Bullet choice is in the beholders eyes and everyones choice is always the best choice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />If it ain't broke,Don't fix it!

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think what this boils down to is that I'm looking at the bullets available from all makers, and hunters and guns in general terms.

You are looking at only your gun and load as is 7STW

It's not a secret or some kind of inside information that the partition is not exactly a tack driving bullet for the majority of guns in use. Much like the Barnes X is a horror show in some rifles. There are those rifles that love them too. My 458Lott is one that shoots the X bullet better then anything else I have used.

If it were just you and I having a conversation and you told me that "YOUR" gun and load loved the partition and was working perfectly then I would not say a word about any change or better projectile for you.

On this forum many hundreds of people read the text and try to gain form the experience of others. I think that its fair to talk about the benifits of the bonded technology and the superior accuracy for the great majority of shooters.

It is a rare rifle that shoots partitions as accurate as a target style bullet like the interbond, Scirocco, or accubond bullets. Count yourself very lucky to have a barrel that will do that.

JJ-I did want to throw in that if you had anything to do with the Hornady XTP,that you did an excellant job doing so.I have used it in my .454 and have a bullet saved that blew a 12" rock to smithereens and we dug it out of the hill side in one peice.I can only imagine what the XTP Mag is like.

I agree on rifles and bullets and there compatibuility.My 45-70 loves 300 grain Barnes XFN's but others can't get them to group at all.

Jayco

I don't know where people can say Partions are inexpensive,for me,one box equals 1/3 the cost of a deer hunting trip.Load development and sighting in Leupolds chews up a fair number.

I have been working with 180 Interbonds for moose in my two 30.06s,while better than partions, I'm not going to post any of the targets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been interested in those 180gr Fusion bullets in the 30/06. I dont' do a lot of hunting with it, mainly just keep it in the truck as an "in case" rifle. You just never know what it might see use on, moose, blackbear, wolf, whatever. It is also the lightest rifle I own and would probably see use on sheep or goats, pretty much anything I would have to climb up to. Up to this point I have been shooting the Federal classic 180gr Grand slam loads because they are cheap and accurate. I would probably go with the 180gr partition HE premium load for strickly moose. I'm not planning on doing any reloading for it so if the fusion could be a cheap do all load I would be intereted in that.