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I'm thinking hard about bidding on this one at a local SCI banquet. Is it as good a deal as it sounds and worth bidding on? And, if so, how high before it stops making sense? Any feedback on the operator would be appreciated. Thank you. Allen

14 Day Premium African Dangerous Game and Plains Game Safari for 2 Hunters
Donated by: Xomaqua Safaris

This is an incredible opportunity for two hunters to hunt the Limpopo Valley and Kalahari Region of South Africa in 2012 or 2013. Each hunter can take 1 Lioness, 1 Nyala, 1 Waterbuck, 1 Kudu, 1 Gemsbuck, 1 Blue Wildebeest, 1 Red Hartebeest and 1 Zebra for a total of 8 animals each.

Hunt can be upgraded to male lions, additional animals and hunt days or animals of similar value as per Xomaqua Safari�s website. Non-hunting companions can be accommodated at $175 per day.

INCLUDED: All meals, accommodations and transportation during the hunt, Professional hunter services, hunting licenses, trophy field preparation. In addition, Xomaqua Safaris will provide free roundtrip economy airfare from the U.S. to South Africa and free all inclusive trophy fees for 2 lionesses (1 per hunter). Also included is a $6,000 voucher towards daily rates ($3,000 per hunter).

NOT INCLUDED: Daily rates of $450 per day for 7 days of Plains Game hunting and $900 per day Dangerous Game (less the $6,000 voucher). $400 transportation to and from the airport. Standard Xomaqua trophy fees apply for specified plains game. Transportation and shipping of trophies.


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Morning Allen

In another thread someone mentioned about being aware of how hunts are structured and this is a classic example. Without being non-professional look at what your math is going to add up to in the end.

I am not saying anything about the outfitter in the least, in fact I'm sure you will have a great hunt and that you will hunt the animals as advertised. Some outfitters charge $650 a day for DG hunting in SA.

I have not looked at the math myself yet but about 16k would be a rough estimate of the trophy fees at normal retail price. A lioness/lion hunt in the Kalahari is done in 3 days max.

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I wouldn't bid on an auction hunt. There are just too many storys of hidden costs, cancelled meetings and changes to itinerary, PH and location of the hunt.

These hunts are to get people interested and invariable start to 'add up' with offers of extras.

Make sure you know exactly what you are buying and what is included and what is not included.

That hunt includes Nyala which do not do well in the Limpopo valley (often being too cold) and are certainly not indigenous to the Kalahari. Invariable they are introduced.

I'm a sceptic, but you will probably find yourself with a trainee PH hunting a small fenced ranch and shooting an old lioness that once breed catch and release MGM males for well heeled 'hunters', with the chance to upgrade of course, at extra cost.

All this may not worry you if you can stick to budget, in which case go for it. We all started somewhere.

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1. You're essentially going to be paying $460/day in daily rates just for yourself. That comes to $6,450.

2. The way I read it, the only trophy included is for the lioness.

3. The included air fare is worth about $1,400.

4. $400 for transportation to and from the airport seems a bit high.

5. Before bidding, you need to figure out what others are charging for lioness trophy fees. You also need to find out what you'll pay for other trophies and what that cost compares to what others are charging.

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Sounds like you need to call the Outfit and talk about the nuts and bolts before you bid. Some very good info from others give above.


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Thank you. I should have mentioned the roundtrip airfare from U.S. is included (economy). Also, 1 free crocodile has just been thrown into the mix to sweeten the pot.

As the VP of our SCI chapter I've looked at enough "donations" to realize that just because it's a donation doesn't make it a sweetheart of a deal. But, this one, at least on the surface, "seems" appealing enough to me to warrant running it up the flagpole for some uber-knowledgeable insight. This would conceivably be my first trip to the Dark Continent if my wife and I don't accompany some friends in August.

Here's my math on this deal. The yellow is the key variable and is entirely dependent upon how much others in the crowd have been drinking!

[Linked Image]
(edited to add wife's airfare)

As a point of reference, that may or may not make a lick of difference to anyone, in no particular order here is the "List" of African animals I�m interested in hunting via fair-chase:

Nyala, Waterbuck, Red Lechwe, Kudu, Gemsbuck, Zebra, Wildebeest (Blue and Black), Springbuck (All), Blesbuck, Warthog, Impala, Eland (Livingstone), Lion & Lioness, Leopard, Buffalo, Elephant, Hippo, Crocodile

I'm sure that once I'm there I will no doubt incur some temptations, but I've always admired the beauty of these animals alive as well as the ones adorning the walls of friends' homes. The Bongo is another beautiful animal, but I can�t seem to get excited about any of the smallish antelopes or the deep jungle stuff.

Time is hard to come by and I am of Scotch/Irish ancestory wink What, in your opinion, would be a good place to start?

Again, thanks in advance for your input as it is greatly appreciated.

Last edited by Bushcraft; 02/23/12. Reason: math fix

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Bushcraft,

If you can pull together 16K or 32K then even for two of you, I would suggest you may do a lot better with a cusom made safari for your own needs.

16K will get you a great intro PG hunt with one or two Rowland Ward trophys and cheaper cull animals.

You mentioned fair-chase. I would submit that the length of your safari will have to increase if you want to take that many animals. You can do one or even two per day but only from the back of a truck.

If I had 32K I'd go to the SAVE in Zim or Zambia.


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Why list all the plains game as if they are part of the deal, you are paying the trophy fees on those animals?


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Originally Posted by dvdegeorge
Why list all the plains game as if they are part of the deal, you are paying the trophy fees on those animals?


That does seem a little deceptive.

Looking at the prices of the trophies, at least for those animals I've taken before, the cost is at least a third more than I've ever paid.

Also, find out how big a pen the lioness is in and exactly how it is to be hunted. It wouldn't be too hard to bait a lioness that was used to coming to dinner at a certain place. Unless the pen was very large and the lioness very wild (as opposed to worn out breeding stock) I would not be interested in such hunting but I have no criticism if it interests you.

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Originally Posted by Tophet1
You mentioned fair-chase. I would submit that the length of your safari will have to increase if you want to take that many animals. You can do one or even two per day but only from the back of a truck.


Ok Tophet1 and where is your point of reference from making such a statement?

The only animals that require a whole lot of time are elephant and sometimes buffalo. Bushcraft would be able to hunt all of the PG mentioned in his hunt list in a 14 day trip and still have time to spare.

In the Kalahari area where the proposed lioness hunt is to take place there are no pens. The smallest pen would be in excess of 10 000 acres simply because properties out that way cannot be small because of yield per acre per animal. In fact a 10 000 acre property would simply be too small to be considered a viable property. As is the case in many parts of Australia.

Bushcraft did a complete analysis of what the potential costing structure will be based on the available information. Now what needs to be done is to get details about membership to different professional hunting organizations to determine if the outfitter has ever been expelled (heck what is the English for that?) for fraudulent or criminal activities. References should be followed up on and that should settle the credibility of the outfit.

Once you are happy with your outfit you need to decide on what your budget is going to be and based on that you can make an informed decision. Is there a reserved price on the hunt, ie, 50% of the valued total, 30%? Mostly that information is not disclosed so as not to effect the bidding price. Once you have decided you are happy with everything why not make a bid on the auction?

Oh, and by the way, finding nyala in the kalahari is just as easy as finding a springbok in the Kruger National Park.

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Pieter is dead on in his comments. If you do your homework and know exactly what you are getting auctions can be good deals. Bushcraft, if everything checks out and you like the place do as Pieter says and make budget and bid on it.

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Peter,

Thank you for your perspective.

There is no reserve. Our chapter and SCI gets 100% of the auction proceeds. It is also for two hunters. So, one person could go and conceivably take twice the number of animals (for twice the cost, which some here say are significantly overpriced).

Another question...Can I get the same or better hunt for less elsewhere?

All the best,

Allen


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And, does the name Ed Barber mean anything to anyone?


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Bushcraft according to the details provided it looks like a 14-day hunt. In your budget calculations you put 3 days DG hunting at $ 900 per day. Should you perhaps not add the additional 4 days, or what happens to the extra 4 days?

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Originally Posted by PieterKriel
Originally Posted by Tophet1
You mentioned fair-chase. I would submit that the length of your safari will have to increase if you want to take that many animals. You can do one or even two per day but only from the back of a truck.


Ok Tophet1 and where is your point of reference from making such a statement?

Oh, and by the way, finding nyala in the kalahari is just as easy as finding a springbok in the Kruger National Park.


Personal experience Peter. If spot and stalk from a vehicle on a small ranch with limited water points, feed and tick rubs consitute fair chase then fair enough. 80% of animals in South Africa are shot from the back of a truck. I've had four PH's tell me that. Not many clients will admit it but its an efficient way to get the trophy fee in the bank and give the client his trophy. I've shot animals from the back of a truck but I've also had to insist with one PH on getting off and stalking. The rest I walked from the front gate.

I'm sure you will find Nyala in the Kalahari. They are either put and take or a few generations later, from an introduced population. They are indigenous to the eastern seaboard and fail to thrive after a cold winter in the Limpopo. They are as natural in the Kalahari as Sable and Roan are in RSA. Yes you will find them but they also are introduced to be shot.

I only have a rudimentary knowledge about Springbok and have never been to Kruger NP so can't comment.

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I would say that "80% of the animals are shot off the truck" is a bit high. I have asked the same questions of maybe 15-20 PHs and I get answers from almost none to 50%. It is all over the map. Maybe that says more about the PH than the hunter. It is easier for them to diesel stalk then get out and walk as you found out with that one PH.

By the way when I am evaluating outfits/PHs one of the first things I ask if shooting from the back of a bakkie is allowed. If they seem enthusiastic about it I know that we would not make a good fit and I move on. If the question is met with disdain then I know that at least we can agree on that and we can keep talking.

If you can find nyala in the Kalahari I would love to see it. The habitat is not suitable at all for them and winter nights in the Kalahari are as cold and if not colder than Limpopo (where they are hunted).

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We can talk about this till kingdom come. If you do not take to driving on small properties and shooting from the back of the truck then I'm sorry for the luck you had. Good thing is you asked for walking and seemingly got it. There are a number of us, including Hack, who are working at uplifting the image of hunting in SA to the level where the typical idea of p&t hunting is dead and buried. Unfortunately perceptions are very hard to change. It's a difficult road but one worth following in the end.

First time I went to the US in '06 I spoke to a rather well-known US outfitter in the mid-West who sold a 400+ class elk for 12k. I was impressed with the quality of his pictures being close and all. He had the elk in a 4 acre enclosure with three other bulls and the hunter was on his way to hunt the animal the following week-end. I will be the last person to be complaining about the splinter in your eye while I have a log in mine, this is just to say that p&t hunting is not limited to SA alone.

I feel it is rather harsh to want to say that 80% of animals are hunted from the back of a truck in SA. Maybe with the company/ies you hunted with but certainly not with mine. Hack, maybe you can comment about your company but what I know of you I would be willing to wager you agree with me.

There have been hunters who wanted to shoot from the truck and I have allowed it. Some people have an illness/heart trouble/disability and cannot do the physical part. Also, what do you do on the very last day at last light, it's your only trip to Africa and you have but seconds to make a decision and your dream kudu is standing right there. It all depends on the hunter. Have had one who refused to shoot his animal from the truck, last day, last moments of daylight. I also respect his decision.

There are some nyala in the North West Province and yes they have been introduced. When I have no idea. Neither do I know how many generations they have been there but does that make it wrong to hunt them if they fully sustain themselves by natural reproduction? Australia would then have a similar hunting issue like hunting fallow deer, chittel and feral hogs. Hunting in New Zealand would be limited to the protected kiwi bird and not fallow deer, elk/wapiti, himalayan tahr, red deer and so on.

There are no springbok in Kruger. If we have to start defining where the Kalahari is that's going to be another major point of discussion!

Please accept that there are great outfitters and hunting companies in South Africa just as there are great outfitters in the US, Europe and Australasia. I also accept that there are outfitters here who are not the real deal.

Would you be willing to try a statement like: the company I hunted with says that 80% of their clients shoot from the back of a truck because they (the clients) preferred to do so?

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I agree with Pieter. It wasn't my intention to start a debate about put and take hunting or the ethics of shooting from the vehicle.

On my first trip to S. Africa I was in camp with an individual who raised whitetails specifically to breed individual males with large antlers. Said animal was sold to a game preserve where a hunter (who could choose the individual animal) would hunt it in an enclosure. That is his business and if a person wants to pay for that kind of experience so be it.

I support Pieter's (and others) efforts to change the image of game farming in South Africa. There are good outfitters everywhere and unfortunately there are crappy ones everywhere.
That is why I have stressed over and over to do research. Know exactly what you are getting yourself into.

I think that one thing that gets lost in this talk is that hunters may forget that it is their safari. It is completely their decision how they want to hunt and what shot they want to take (within reason). I encourage people to trust their PH and their professionalism but be honest about your abilities. If you can't walk long distances please tell the PH. If you don't feel comfortable with the shot DON'T TAKE IT! It is okay and in fact the PH will probably thank you. Better you pass on the shot instead of wounding the animal, wasting alot of time trying to find it and maybe coughing up a trophy fee for nothing.

If you don't want to shoot off a vehicle then refuse to. You are paying the bill so don't be forced into a situation where you feel uncomfortable.

Your safari is just that, yours. You will get out of the hunt exactly what you put into it.

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Maybe I've had a rough trot over there. My first hunt in RSA I went to two different areas to hunt first Springbok and then Kudu in their natural environment. These were my primary species and I missed out on both because we 'walked it up' fair and square.

Bushcraft mentioned wanting to hunt Nyala and the auctioned hunt was to be in the Limpopo and Kalahari. I may have read that wrong. I was just trying to point out that Nyala are not indigenous to either area. Every hunt has to have some compromise and I was pushing my own ethics. It is his hunt and he should do what he wants. You blokes are spot on in making that point clear.

As to the 80% statement. We may have to agree to disagree. I have been going to southern Africa to hunt and visit friends since 1984. Some of the storys of sculduggery perpetrated on foreign hunters in the name of fair chase you no doubt have heard yourselves.

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Originally Posted by Tophet1
As to the 80% statement. We may have to agree to disagree. I have been going to southern Africa to hunt and visit friends since 1984. Some of the storys of sculduggery perpetrated on foreign hunters in the name of fair chase you no doubt have heard yourselves.


Yes I have heard how some outfits boast. Precisely what we are trying to get rid of. Next time you come out this way give me a call and I'll see what I can do for you to show what can be done.

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